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Hey guys!

Im getting back to playing after a hiatus since around the drop of Battle for Mcragge and just last night finished my third game of 6th.

A rules question came up regarding tank shocking.

My opponent used outflank to place five scouts (i dont have any scouts on hand for this picture, he took his models with him, proxying with space marines) right next to my trukk and behind the unit of boyz that had been riding it.

In my turn i moved my boyz to completely surround the scouts on two sides, the third side being blocked by the table edge, like in the attached pic.

To the left in the picture was his board edge.

I then declare that i will tank shock 4" using my trukk that has a reinforced ram (allowing it to tank shock even tho it isnt really a tank).

According to my understand of the rules, If they fail their morale check:
they should be destroy as they wouldnt be able to move their fall back distance without coming within 1" of an enemy unit or moving off the board, no matter how low they roll.

If they make the morale check:
Four of them would be unable to move at least 1" away from the trukk while maintaining unit coherency and would thus be destroyed.
The scout furthest from the trukk can stay where it is because the trukk stops just over 1" from it and as such unit coherency has to be take from that model.

Are my interpretations correct?

Thanks!

Seems right to me. The Tank Shock rules don't give the enemy models (SM) an exemption to the rules about moving through your troops (Orks), either when falling back or when moving out of the way of the tank shocking vehicle.

It does specify that you must move at least Combat Speed (which is odd, because Combat Speed is up to 6"), so you can evidently Tank Shock 0.01".

It might seem overpowered to just remove a unit of Marines right off the board, but you trapped them in the very worst tactical position possible. They are surrounded on most sides, trapped on the board edge, and right in front of an enemy vehicle. Effectively, you forced them to retreat (that is, assuming that some heroic Space Marine doesn't destroy your trukk with a Death or Glory attack).

Thats the way i see it, a Fall Back is a Fall Back with all normal rules applying to it, even if the unit isnt actually broken.

It also notes that a pivot isnt enough for a tank shock, which to me say pretty much "the vehicle has to actually move"

Oh, thats right, one of them could have used a krak on it.

It wouldnt have helped that unit themselves tho, on a the roll of a six it would have glanced and taken a hull point off.
One marine had been killed in the DoG, the other three covered or too close to the truck would be crushed leaving the single marines furthest from it alone again.

Why could the marines not move to behind the trukk?

rigeld2 wrote:
Why could the marines not move to behind the trukk?

Because you are not given permission to move through other models/units.

rigeld2 wrote:
Why could the marines not move to behind the trukk?

4" would not cover everyone, at most 4 of the 5 Scouts, meaning they would have to break coherency to get out from under the trukk.

 Ond Angel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why could the marines not move to behind the trukk?

Because you are not given permission to move through other models/units.

Not 100% accurate. The Trukk isn't there to block your move so you could move through where it "is". The issue that I missed is, as Happy mentioned, one scout wouldn't be caught.

As noted you can kill 4 of the 5 easily by leaving the last in line. Otherwise they all could move under the tank and out the opening in the boyz.

The only difference between failing and making a tank shock is whether or not you have to move in a path towards your board edge to escape the tank.

You automatically stop tank shocking when you reach 1" of your own men, impassable terrain or a vehicle, so declaring tank shock distance is irrelevant.

When it moves forward to the enemy unit, that enemy unit takes a ld check and then moves the minimum distance away from the tank or a fall back move. If they are unable to escape the tank's path then the unit is crushed.

So, the entire unit should be killed from the tank shock regardless of what their ld check was.

But since you declared 4" leaving space for the last scout, one scout would survive.

sonicaucie wrote:
The only difference between failing and making a tank shock is whether or not you have to move in a path towards your board edge to escape the tank.

You automatically stop tank shocking when you reach 1" of your own men, impassable terrain or a vehicle, so declaring tank shock distance is irrelevant.

When it moves forward to the enemy unit, that enemy unit takes a ld check and then moves the minimum distance away from the tank or a fall back move. If they are unable to escape the tank's path then the unit is crushed.

So, the entire unit should be killed from the tank shock regardless of what their ld check was..

Page 85 disagrees. If the unit passes the LD check the vehicle continues its movement until it reaches its final position.

If he moved the trukk so it covered all of the scouts and they passed thier LD check they would simply move to where the trukk was.

"if some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle u'hen it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back or not) these models must be moved out of the way." (85)

 DeathReaper wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:
The only difference between failing and making a tank shock is whether or not you have to move in a path towards your board edge to escape the tank.

You automatically stop tank shocking when you reach 1" of your own men, impassable terrain or a vehicle, so declaring tank shock distance is irrelevant.

When it moves forward to the enemy unit, that enemy unit takes a ld check and then moves the minimum distance away from the tank or a fall back move. If they are unable to escape the tank's path then the unit is crushed.

So, the entire unit should be killed from the tank shock regardless of what their ld check was..

Page 85 disagrees. If the unit passes the LD check the vehicle continues its movement until it reaches its final position.

If he moved the trukk so it covered all of the scouts and they passed thier LD check they would simply move to where the trukk was.

"if some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle u'hen it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back or not) these models must be moved out of the way." (85)

I think that paragraph actually agrees with my interpretation. It states that if enemy models would end up underneath the trukk when it reaches it final position then the controlling player must attempt to move them out of the way otherwise they will be crushed and the models removed.

The scouts are not permitted to move through the trukk, the enemy unit or go off the board edge. They can't manage to maintain 1" distance from the trukk when it would reach its final position and so all enemy models that would end up underneath the trukk and within 1" of the trukk or an enemy model are removed from play.

sonicaucie wrote:


I think that paragraph actually agrees with my interpretation. It states that if enemy models would end up underneath the trukk when it reaches it final position then the controlling player must attempt to move them out of the way otherwise they will be crushed and the models removed.

The scouts are not permitted to move through the trukk, the enemy unit or go off the board edge. They can't manage to maintain 1" distance from the trukk when it would reach its final position and so all enemy models that would end up underneath the trukk and within 1" of the trukk or an enemy model are removed from play.

Page 85 disagrees with you.

"If an enemy unit other than another vehicle is reached, that enemy unit must take a Morale check and immediately Fall Back if it fails. If the test is passed, the unit simply lets the Tank move through, as if it was not there." (Page 85 BRB. Emphasis mine)

Edited.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:


I think that paragraph actually agrees with my interpretation. It states that if enemy models would end up underneath the trukk when it reaches it final position then the controlling player must attempt to move them out of the way otherwise they will be crushed and the models removed.

The scouts are not permitted to move through the trukk, the enemy unit or go off the board edge. They can't manage to maintain 1" distance from the trukk when it would reach its final position and so all enemy models that would end up underneath the trukk and within 1" of the trukk or an enemy model are removed from play.

Page 85 disagrees with you.

"If an enemy unit other than another vehicle is reached, that enemy unit must take a Morale check and immediately Fall Back if it fails. If the test is passed, the unit simply lets the Tank move through, as if it was not there." (Page 85 BRB. Emphasis mine)

It can move through the trukk because it is "as if [the Trukk] was not there." (85)

I'm not sure how that's relevant. Falling back or staying still. It still results that the tank is going to land on top of the unit. Unless...

I must have a serious misunderstanding of the tank shock rules if that's the case. What you seem to be saying is that in order to crush a unit with a tank shock, you must manipulate it in such a way that you land on a unit with no where to go with one model able to remain where he is in order to crush models; otherwise they're just going to walk through the tank to safety when it lands on top of them?

How I see the rules, from how it's written, is it uses a future tense "would" to describe the situation.

"If some enemy models would end up underneath the tank when it reaches its final position... move them the shortest distance out of the way"

This, I believe, states that if you're in a long corridor with walls on either side of impassable terrain and a tank comes driving down towards you. You have no way to escape, so you're dead.

You seem to indicate that the unit would just somehow walk through the tank to safety.

The unit would move through the tank, because "the unit lets the tank move through, as if it was not there" (85)

If you had a unit in the center of a U shape of enemies, and a tank tank shocks into that U, the unit, provided all models need to be moved, move to where the tank came from because "these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board." (85)

The shortest distance in that case is to move where the tank was before it came into contact with the unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit would move through the tank, because "the unit lets the tank move through, as if it was not there" (85)

If you had a unit in the center of a U shape of enemies, and a tank tank shocks into that U, the unit, provided all models need to be moved, move to where the tank came from because "these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board." (85)

The shortest distance in that case is to move where the tank was before it came into contact with the unit.

The unit only lets the tank move through it when it passes a ld check and the tank would not end its movement on top of them.

If the tank is going to finish its movement on top of them, the unit must then attempt to move out of the way with no special permissions granted to its movement and a restriction that it must be the shortest distance available.

My interpretation:
If a tank is tank shocking down an impassable corridor of terrain it would move forward until its 1" from unit 1. Unit 1 then takes a morale check and passes. The tank pass through them and continues on until it stops at unit 2. Unit 2 then passes their morale check and remains still. The tank is now going to end its movement on top of them. The enemy must then attempt to move their units out of the way of the incoming tank which it is unable to do and thus is crushed.

##############
#22.............. 11 TTT
#22.............. 11 TTT
##############

##############
#22TTT....... 11
#22TTT........11
##############

##############
#TTT.............11
#TTT.............11
##############

The interpretation you're giving me seems a bit wonky in that it requires exploitation of unit coherency to leave one model unaffected by the tank shock and thus prevent the unit from moving away when the tank is over them. My interpretation is simply that you must clear a path for the tank when it's about to complete its tank shock or be crushed.

I came up with this interpretation from the fact that it uses future tense "would" when it defines this situation. So I don't look at it as though you're moving the tank over the unit and then telling them to move. I look at it as you move 1" from the unit, tank shock and then tell your opponent to move out of the way or be crushed.

"If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up
underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position..."

The tank does not move through them in this case. It waits until the way is cleared by the models moving or being crushed.

Not true about unit 2, they can move to where the tank came from, as the tank will finish its movement on top of all of them. They all have to move out of the way by the shortest distance available.

Behind the tank is the shortest distance available in that situation.

It would look like this:


##############
#TTT....22.........11
#TTT....22.........11
##############

Also:

sonicaucie wrote:
The tank does not move through them in this case. It waits until the way is cleared by the models moving or being crushed.

This is incorrect.

"If an enemy unit other than another vehicle is reached, that enemy unit must take a Morale check and immediately Fall Back if it fails. If the test is passed, the unit simply lets the Tank move through, as if it was not there." (Page 85 BRB.)

The tank moves through as if the unit was not there.

sonicaucie wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit would move through the tank, because "the unit lets the tank move through, as if it was not there" (85)

If you had a unit in the center of a U shape of enemies, and a tank tank shocks into that U, the unit, provided all models need to be moved, move to where the tank came from because "these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board." (85)

The shortest distance in that case is to move where the tank was before it came into contact with the unit.

The unit only lets the tank move through it when it passes a ld check and the tank would not end its movement on top of them.

If the tank is going to finish its movement on top of them, the unit must then attempt to move out of the way with no special permissions granted to its movement and a restriction that it must be the shortest distance available.

My interpretation:
If a tank is tank shocking down an impassable corridor of terrain it would move forward until its 1" from unit 1. Unit 1 then takes a morale check and passes. The tank pass through them and continues on until it stops at unit 2. Unit 2 then passes their morale check and remains still. The tank is now going to end its movement on top of them. The enemy must then attempt to move their units out of the way of the incoming tank which it is unable to do and thus is crushed.

##############
#22.............. 11 TTT
#22.............. 11 TTT
##############

##############
#22TTT....... 11
#22TTT........11
##############

##############
#TTT.............11
#TTT.............11
##############

The interpretation you're giving me seems a bit wonky in that it requires exploitation of unit coherency to leave one model unaffected by the tank shock and thus prevent the unit from moving away when the tank is over them. My interpretation is simply that you must clear a path for the tank when it's about to complete its tank shock or be crushed.

I came up with this interpretation from the fact that it uses future tense "would" when it defines this situation. So I don't look at it as though you're moving the tank over the unit and then telling them to move. I look at it as you move 1" from the unit, tank shock and then tell your opponent to move out of the way or be crushed.

"If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up
underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position..."

The tank does not move through them in this case. It waits until the way is cleared by the models moving or being crushed.

Deathreaper is correct. The rules state "If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final positions (it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board." A model does not have permission to move unless it is underneath the tank. Essentially, you move the tank to its final position and then check if anything is underneath it. Once you have done that, any models underneath the tank now move the shortest distance to get out from underneath the tank. This could be behind the tank.

If that's the case then I think tank shock rules seem a little bit wonky since most people would want to attempt to crush enemies with their tanks. But the rules will simply allow the members to walk through the tank unless you exploit unit coherency to prevent one model from moving.

Seems a bit silly to over complicate it like that, but I guess that means they must have not intended for tank shock to be used offensively like this.

Given the tank shock rules are essentially unchanged since 3rd or 4th, this seems likely.

One of the only ways to definitely crush is to encircle them then use a skimmer tank to tank shock in. Tricky to pull off, and usually there are more reliable, easier to construct methods to destroy the unit.