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I'm kinda torn on this one. On one hand it seems fun. But I usually like to load out my Chaos Lord with Pfists/LClaws, or Spine shiver if I'm playing Black Legion. I think I'm going to find myself playing my Crimson Slaughter more now just because of Daemonheart, so I want to come to a decision on this. It gets better and better the more you kill (30 points) . However, I feel like to get the most our of it, I need to bring the horns upgrade to gain rage and furious charge. Thoughts? Or would I be better of bringing the Pfist/LClaw combo?

I used it last night and i just don't think it's worth it.

I'd run a power fist instead,
The reason blade of the relentless isn't great is that it's all too easy to get trapped in squads and challenges. It takes a while to rack up kills and then when you do it's too late. You also don't have too many attacks so excepting that first turn of combat, you won't be getting more than 4 kills.

I think a powerfist just gives you the ability to be consistent.

You have to run the guy using it in a squad with challenge bait. If you don't have someone who you can sacrifice in a challenge, you won't get use out of it.

Getting 3 kills (which is all you really need for it to be worth it's price) isn't that hard to do. Between the first round of assault and then the ensuing combat on their turn assuming there wasn't any morale breaks, you should be there with a Chaos Lord. Obviously you can't go after people in 2+ armor with the squad at first, but not a lot of people field 2+ armor en masse anymore as it's kind of a waste of points outside of some leader units.

Thing is, Sword/Helm is the same points as PF/LC/Melta Bombs. I think the at initiative AP2 is worth it, though, should you have the fortune of carving through some other poor squad first.

It would only be worth 30 points if it was also a daemon weapon.

You have to get 3 kills for it to be worth it, but then also be in more cc to make use of the upgrades. It just requires too much combat to feasibly be able to get it powered up and then also use it against a target that it would be useful against. I can't say I'd ever take this unless both me and my opponent were both taking melee heavy lists. Its basically the murder sword all over again. It asks too much for the same-ish point cost of a daemon wep.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that MAYBE the Blade of the Relentless should have been a Sabre and not a Bastard Sword?

JubbJubbz wrote:
You have to get 3 kills for it to be worth it, but then also be in more cc to make use of the upgrades. It just requires too much combat to feasibly be able to get it powered up and then also use it against a target that it would be useful against. I can't say I'd ever take this unless both me and my opponent were both taking melee heavy lists. Its basically the murder sword all over again. It asks too much for the same-ish point cost of a daemon wep.

That's not entirely true. A single kill makes it "worth it" because +1 strength AP3 is still really good. Dropping to AP2 after you've killed 3 guys just means afterward you can still handle some Terminators or something.

 SRSFACE wrote:
That's not entirely true. A single kill makes it "worth it" because +1 strength AP3 is still really good. Dropping to AP2 after you've killed 3 guys just means afterward you can still handle some Terminators or something.

Agreed. I would love charging an enemy with Furious Charge, gaining +1 Str, then charging the next unit at +2 Str and possibly AP2. One good combat gets this thing rolling.

The problem is... 30 points.

There is this thing called the Axe of Blind Fury that gives +2 S at AP2 (which doesn't require you to kill anybody first) and gives an extra D6 attacks, for only 5 points more...

 herpguy wrote:
The problem is... 30 points.

There is this thing called the Axe of Blind Fury that gives +2 S at AP2 (which doesn't require you to kill anybody first) and gives an extra D6 attacks, for only 5 points more...

And at -1WS.

Who cares about -1WS? You're hitting with the exact same roll against basically any unit and character in the game that you would without it.

AoBF kinda forces you into the juggerlord build.
I can see the blade used by slaaneshi lords however.

 herpguy wrote:
Who cares about -1WS? You're hitting with the exact same roll against basically any unit and character in the game that you would without it.

Against every HQ in the SM codex par MotF you are now hitting on 4's rather than 3's.

30 pts indeed. The ap3 is just a power sword; that's 15 pts. Is +1 S really worth another 15 points? I'd probably say no the vast majority of the time.

I can't even begin to imagine how someone decided to cost this thing. Its basically the CS sword after 3 power ups and gives you an extra D6 attacks for the 5pts and -1WS which doesn't change anything half the time anyway.

JubbJubbz wrote:
30 pts indeed. The ap3 is just a power sword; that's 15 pts. Is +1 S really worth another 15 points? I'd probably say no the vast majority of the time.

I can't even begin to imagine how someone decided to cost this thing. Its basically the CS sword after 3 power ups and gives you an extra D6 attacks for the 5pts and -1WS which doesn't change anything half the time anyway.

The other 15pts is a potential +2 Str, AP2, and Instant Death.

To the comment that it would be worth it as a Daemon Weapon - the thing would be half-ramped after one combat would it to have that kind of attack potential boost. It would cost 45pts, minimum.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Who cares about -1WS? You're hitting with the exact same roll against basically any unit and character in the game that you would without it.

Against every HQ in the SM codex par MotF you are now hitting on 4's rather than 3's.

Just to let you know you were still hitting them on 4s to begin with... Look at the weapon chart again.

 herpguy wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Who cares about -1WS? You're hitting with the exact same roll against basically any unit and character in the game that you would without it.

Against every HQ in the SM codex par MotF you are now hitting on 4's rather than 3's.

Just to let you know you were still hitting them on 4s to begin with... Look at the weapon chart again.

6 to 5. Read it yourself.

obsidiankatana wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
30 pts indeed. The ap3 is just a power sword; that's 15 pts. Is +1 S really worth another 15 points? I'd probably say no the vast majority of the time.

I can't even begin to imagine how someone decided to cost this thing. Its basically the CS sword after 3 power ups and gives you an extra D6 attacks for the 5pts and -1WS which doesn't change anything half the time anyway.

The other 15pts is a potential +2 Str, AP2, and Instant Death.

Bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush? Actually making use of the power up portion is going to be very difficult.

obsidiankatana wrote:

 herpguy wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Who cares about -1WS? You're hitting with the exact same roll against basically any unit and character in the game that you would without it.

Against every HQ in the SM codex par MotF you are now hitting on 4's rather than 3's.

Just to let you know you were still hitting them on 4s to begin with... Look at the weapon chart again.

6 to 5. Read it yourself.

No seriously...
Chaos Lord is base 6 and SM HQ's are mostly also 6. 6v6 is a 4+. Take the axe and now the lord is 5. 5 attacking 6 is, you guessed it, still 4+. You will get hit on a 3+ but thats a small price to pay for nearly doubling your number of attacks and not having to try to kill several models to get the +2S and AP2

The relentless blade is obviously worse compared to the blind axe. But that's not why you take the sword. You take the sword because you're also taking the daemonheart for a 2+ save and IWND.

CSM juggerlord puts out more attacks, but CS juggerlord lives much longer (and still puts out 5 attacks, 7 on the charge). I think its a pretty even matchup.

JubbJubbz wrote:


Bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush? Actually making use of the power up portion is going to be very difficult.

...

No seriously...
Chaos Lord is base 6 and SM HQ's are mostly also 6. 6v6 is a 4+. Take the axe and now the lord is 5. 5 attacking 6 is, you guessed it, still 4+. You will get hit on a 3+ but thats a small price to pay for nearly doubling your number of attacks and not having to try to kill several models to get the +2S and AP2

Not as difficult as people seem to be making it out. A juggerlord's job or Mace Lord's job is the same as this guy's job, except after he gets done killing his way through a squad he can start killing progressively tougher targets. Getting three kills in an assault isn't a difficult feat to achieve. Especially for a Chaos lord.

For some reason I had in my head WS5. Probably because I use a lot of librarians. It does still give the advantage to that large swarm of SM HQ's that are now hitting YOU on 3's.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
The problem is... 30 points.

There is this thing called the Axe of Blind Fury that gives +2 S at AP2 (which doesn't require you to kill anybody first) and gives an extra D6 attacks, for only 5 points more...

And at -1WS.

WS is perhaps the least meaningful stat in the game. You need such a big difference in the WS stat between two units for it to really have a substantial effect that the -1 WS penalty may as well not exist.

In any case, a beatsticky Juggerlord of Khorne rocks T5, 4 wounds, 6 strength with the axe that hits at AP2 at initiative, a boat-load of attacks on and off the charge, Cavalry, a 4++ save, and a boon of mutation that may roll up something nice for a dirt cheap beatstick that does not truly fear anything in the game save for instant death, and most ranged dealers of instant death are single shot so he usually can get into melee to break things.

The CS Juggerlord by comparison has fewer attacks, needs to power up first, but is more durable and can get instant death. And also costs a fair bit more if you want the Daemonheart too.

The problem with the Blade of the Relentless is everybody is acting like you have 10 turns in the game to wade through enemies.
In my experience a juggerlord gets in 1-2 combats per game. With the axe he usually does get around 10 kills or more, but the issue is: the blade of the relentless has A LOT fewer attacks, and you probably won't hit the 10 kill mark and if you do the game is probably over.

Axe of Blind Fury also has a 15 point tax on it people seem to ignore. I can run the Blade of the Relentless on an unmarked Lord, or Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh if I want.

Frankly I don't think the Axe of Blind Fury is worth it from a total army perspective. You're either taking a superflouous Daemon Prince type (Khorne daemon princes are so unnecessary) for something that's a marginal benefit to him, or a Khorne Lord who is probably not as good as a Nurgle Biker Lord. Is it a bad-ass weapon? Yeah. Are Khorne CSM lists good? Not really.

I do think the Blade is a bit overpriced, but not by much. If it default already had the +1 strength on it, I'd be all over it.

Anyway, as others have said, it's not the star relic of the codex. That'd be the Balestar and the Daemonheart.

The axe of blind fury is only 5 points more than the blade of the relentless.
Just because you take a Khorne lord doesn't mean you need a Khorne list. Cultists are the way to go for troops in pretty much any scenario anyway.
I find a juggerlord to be better than a nurgle lord due to the extra wound and being more killy, but the nurgle lord being able to take T6 spawn evens it out.

Point of interest; The Blade of the Relentless says "Enemy models removed as casualties", meaning if you need to charge an enemy vehicle to get closer to the infantry on the other side... do it.
Melta Bombs, one dead Rhino, and you're not only another kill up the ladder of paindeathwin but you're also closer to someone you want to be in CC with.
'Cause you always want to be in CC.

 herpguy wrote:
The axe of blind fury is only 5 points more than the blade of the relentless.
Just because you take a Khorne lord doesn't mean you need a Khorne list. Cultists are the way to go for troops in pretty much any scenario anyway.
I find a juggerlord to be better than a nurgle lord due to the extra wound and being more killy, but the nurgle lord being able to take T6 spawn evens it out.

20 points more, due to required MoK tax.

If you require something, you pretty much need to include it's cost in there with it as well, it's like how Black Legion is worse off due to required VOTLW tax.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
The axe of blind fury is only 5 points more than the blade of the relentless.
Just because you take a Khorne lord doesn't mean you need a Khorne list. Cultists are the way to go for troops in pretty much any scenario anyway.
I find a juggerlord to be better than a nurgle lord due to the extra wound and being more killy, but the nurgle lord being able to take T6 spawn evens it out.

20 points more, due to required MoK tax.

If you require something, you pretty much need to include it's cost in there with it as well, it's like how Black Legion is worse off due to required VOTLW tax.

Mark of Khorne is only 10 points, but fair enough. I don't consider it a tax though. An extra attack on the charge (and when getting charged) is nice, plus it lets him take a juggernaut, which is just too good.

Rage from MoK doesn't stack with Rage from AoBF, so theoretically you're losing out on something you paid for there.

First test-run of the Blade of the Relentless tonight.
Brought a champ to suck up challenges (Ran Lord with 9-man MoN Possessed). Got in combat with 3 different units, sadly champ was shot out before the first CC. Due to Challenges and a bloody irritating Iron Hands libby hitting me with Enfeeble, only managed to swing 3 kills by the end of it. Still, S5 AP2 is a really good thing. I think paying the 15pts for the Slaughterer's Horns (which I didn't do) is probably worth it. Beats out MoK, and gives you +1 Str and +2 attacks effectively. Important for getting those early kills!
> than just a LC, IMHO.

Just remember to head for the squishy units first!

 SRSFACE wrote:
Axe of Blind Fury also has a 15 point tax on it people seem to ignore. I can run the Blade of the Relentless on an unmarked Lord, or Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh if I want.

Frankly I don't think the Axe of Blind Fury is worth it from a total army perspective. You're either taking a superflouous Daemon Prince type (Khorne daemon princes are so unnecessary) for something that's a marginal benefit to him, or a Khorne Lord who is probably not as good as a Nurgle Biker Lord. Is it a bad-ass weapon? Yeah. Are Khorne CSM lists good? Not really.

I do think the Blade is a bit overpriced, but not by much. If it default already had the +1 strength on it, I'd be all over it.

Anyway, as others have said, it's not the star relic of the codex. That'd be the Balestar and the Daemonheart.

The reason why the Juggerlord is so loved is pretty much because you get nearly Abaddon level killing power on a fast, durable platform for much less than Lord topknot. Less than two hundred points or so. It's a steal for something capable of eating through most squads or killing many special characters and is one of the last non-monstrous creature/walker units that has an AP better than 3 at initiative.

The biker lord isn't substantially more durable (the invulnerable save makes cover saves irrelevant, and the extra wound balances out against T6 against everything but S10), the Nurgle Lord is substantially less killy, the lack of fleet means that much less certainty with charge, and the main advantage is that the Biker Lord unlocks Plague Marines. Given that neither are particularly expensive, it's easy to fit both in large games. Or you could take the wussy option and choose Typhus because you can't decide between a Sorcerer or a Lord.

 Kain wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Axe of Blind Fury also has a 15 point tax on it people seem to ignore. I can run the Blade of the Relentless on an unmarked Lord, or Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh if I want.

Frankly I don't think the Axe of Blind Fury is worth it from a total army perspective. You're either taking a superflouous Daemon Prince type (Khorne daemon princes are so unnecessary) for something that's a marginal benefit to him, or a Khorne Lord who is probably not as good as a Nurgle Biker Lord. Is it a bad-ass weapon? Yeah. Are Khorne CSM lists good? Not really.

I do think the Blade is a bit overpriced, but not by much. If it default already had the +1 strength on it, I'd be all over it.

Anyway, as others have said, it's not the star relic of the codex. That'd be the Balestar and the Daemonheart.

The reason why the Juggerlord is so loved is pretty much because you get nearly Abaddon level killing power on a fast, durable platform for much less than Lord topknot. Less than two hundred points or so. It's a steal for something capable of eating through most squads or killing many special characters and is one of the last non-monstrous creature/walker units that has an AP better than 3 at initiative.

The biker lord isn't substantially more durable (the invulnerable save makes cover saves irrelevant, and the extra wound balances out against T6 against everything but S10), the Nurgle Lord is substantially less killy, the lack of fleet means that much less certainty with charge, and the main advantage is that the Biker Lord unlocks Plague Marines. Given that neither are particularly expensive, it's easy to fit both in large games. Or you could take the wussy option and choose Typhus because you can't decide between a Sorcerer or a Lord.

Fleet requires a whole unit has it.

And it's not that I don't see the value in the Juggernaut Lord, as I plan to build one myself at some point. I just don't think writing off the Blade of the Relentless because the Axe of Blind Fury exists is the right idea. The guy with Blade of the Relentless also likely has 2+/IWND as well, so I do think he's substantially harder to kill barring Monstrous Creatures.