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Martel732 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Their str5 guns and str10 ap1 guns have always been in the game. Their markerlights which ignored cover and upped blastic skill have also been in the game since at least last edition. There were a lot of topics on how you could NOT make tau a viable army in its old codex despite pathfinders because they were too easy to kill and had to take a devilfish.

By common consensus, tau were an incredibly weak and outdated army during this time which regularly got curb stomped by melee and marine armies. I know because I remember my 3.5 chaos marine army going through them like butter.

Shadowsun has always been able to fire at different targets and this was a battlesuit upgrade in the previous edition. Only two changes were made to that unit. Her stealth ability became a cover save, she could join crisis suits and under 6th could confer that special ability to the squad she joined.

Battlesuits have always been always been able to fire and redeploy. On a small board this rarely ever mattered in older editions. Granted, the distance increased substantially from 6 to 2d6; however this random element, like charging into close combat should technically make using the ability harder not easier.

So I am not sure why the complaints would center around their old rules.



edit - I fully expect that they will allow you to charge from one squad to another like in third and possibly allow an "overwatch" shooting attack by the assaulting unit as well. However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights. Most of their units would have been considered death star under previous editions like 3rd or 4th. 5th was not balanced between shooting and CC. It was a CC edition, except it had Imperial Guard boosted.

5th was not CC. CC had the same problem as 6th: no consolidation into a new combat. So the same kinds of things happened: One squad gets contacted, and the army prepares to shoot the victors.

This Top armies in 5th

IG not CC
Space Wolf Razor mor MIssile Spam Not CC
Grey Knights Not CC (Dreadspam, or Henchman spam, or Paladins which largely shot)

The blood angels death company dreads that do hits than generate extra hits.

They're good because they shredded my 4th edition Nid army in CC.

Grey knights with strength 6 power weapons.

When I played 3.5 chaos marines having foot marines with a bolt pistol and chainsword was a massive advantage for regular troops. Not every marine unit used to be an absolute CC beast and dedicated assault trooper.


You can't balance pure assault and shooting.

Either one army gets gunned down, or the other easily closes the distance and massacres you with shocking ease. Which is what happened to most shooting armies during 3rd and 4th edition. Personally I only felt that in 6th with the new charge rules and overwatch traditional CC failed. Simply getting forty chaos marines or genestealers with MC and screaming "banzai!" no longer won you the battle; which is what a lot of previous editions were.

DC dreads were never used because DC were terrible in 5th. Nids should have shot them with Zoans anyway.

I think you could balance them (5th was reasonably close, 5th with the Current Vehicle rules as far as Hitting Vehicles in CC, and Hull points actually would have been very good).

The issue with the current game (and the opposite was true prior to 5th ed) is that there are entire factions dedicated to the assault with Dedicated assault units that cannot reasonably get into assault in this edition.

I agree that you should not be able to just run stuff across the table and assault but 6th actually removed some other options (outflanking, vehciles etc.) as a meaningful way of reaching assault with some units.

In 6th if you don't move 12" in your movement phase and are not reasonably durable as well...you cannot assault.

People who think that 5e was a paragon of balance and harmony between assault and shooting must have clearly not played the game with an endless parade of Psyfle dreads and Psycannon Purifiers/Paladins and Psybolt Razor backs, Leaf Blower Guard builds, Dakka Wolves and other such silliness I did.

The Wolves and Grey Knights were counter-assault armies, having enough assault capability to make charging at them after being withered by their shooting a bad idea. Rarely did any high end GK build besides Draigowing have "charge into melee" as it's primary method of dealing damage.

All of this is a hard-line reaction to the complaints of assault being OP in 3e where I think one phoenix lord could dump 50 or so attacks on a squad, consolidate into the next one, annihilate that one, then keep on doing it until your entire army was dead, and every Rhino was filled with a full squad of blood angels who could charge right out of it and squash you.

I don't think the two phases have ever been in balance throughout the history of the game to be perfectly honest.

Kain is correct.

I agree, but it was a lot closer than 6th. If you fixed vehicle rules, and added the speed of a lot of todays assaulting units...it would actually have been pretty balanced. 5th screwed assault largely because killing vehicles with assault was difficult.

I'm certainly not an expert on Tau and I've only fought against them once, but I think the riptide seems to be most of the reason why Tau armies are so OP. Just compare it's abilities to any other unit in the game with roughly the same points value and it's immediately obvious how over-the-top and unbalanced it is. You can take 5 of them in a primary detachment if you want, which is something similar to melting velveeta on a block of cheddar cheese in a bowl of limburger atop a pyre of blue cheese sprinkled with monterey jack.

Take out the riptide and Tau are still very good. Markerlights are a little cheesy, particularly in an edition where cover is vital for survival. Tau would be a little less irritating to fight though, because at least they wouldn't have an invincible MC that can get pretty much all the best USRs in the game, dance around the board and erase entire units from far away. It's less of a game and more of a "Put all of your models away, I win, hurrdurr."

Really satisfying when you kill one though.

Breng77 wrote:
I agree, but it was a lot closer than 6th. If you fixed vehicle rules, and added the speed of a lot of todays assaulting units...it would actually have been pretty balanced. 5th screwed assault largely because killing vehicles with assault was difficult.

The best armies in 5e were as such that even if you got past all their shootings, your tattered remnants would then get punched in the face by Counter-attacking Grey Hunters, All instant death power weapon all the time grey knights who hit before you did, or a gigantic power blob of guardsmen when they weren't running mechvets. And yes, vehicles did make or break your list in 5e, given how few plans made in 6e consider assaulting vehicles worth while over just shooting them if you aren't packing entropic touch/lots of rending/smash/armor bane/haywire grenades even in an edition that's more open to the idea of assaulting vehicles and has given vehicles a substantial shift, I don't think that making vehicles more assaultable would have helped things any.

Shooting kills things more and with less risk, and can often start killing things from turn 1. In 5e, most dedicated assault builds had to be designed to circumvent shooting, usually by deep striking, outflanking, or assault vehicles that could take a punch. And even then, 5e Tyranids were considered bad, Blood Angels never quite got out of the upper-middle percentile competetively, the Chaos Space Marines preferred lines of Obliterators or Predators and special weapons carrying plague marines to get in there and pump dakka, Daemons were an awful, borked army, few people actually used the assault units of the Tau, Eldar, and Vanilla Marines (with the exception of hammernators), and the best dark Eldar builds were the ones that could zip around the board like donkey-caves filling everything with holes via a massive amount of dakka that didn't care about your toughness and/or armor save.

Martel732 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Their str5 guns and str10 ap1 guns have always been in the game. Their markerlights which ignored cover and upped blastic skill have also been in the game since at least last edition. There were a lot of topics on how you could NOT make tau a viable army in its old codex despite pathfinders because they were too easy to kill and had to take a devilfish.

By common consensus, tau were an incredibly weak and outdated army during this time which regularly got curb stomped by melee and marine armies. I know because I remember my 3.5 chaos marine army going through them like butter.

Shadowsun has always been able to fire at different targets and this was a battlesuit upgrade in the previous edition. Only two changes were made to that unit. Her stealth ability became a cover save, she could join crisis suits and under 6th could confer that special ability to the squad she joined.

Battlesuits have always been always been able to fire and redeploy. On a small board this rarely ever mattered in older editions. Granted, the distance increased substantially from 6 to 2d6; however this random element, like charging into close combat should technically make using the ability harder not easier.

So I am not sure why the complaints would center around their old rules.



edit - I fully expect that they will allow you to charge from one squad to another like in third and possibly allow an "overwatch" shooting attack by the assaulting unit as well. However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights. Most of their units would have been considered death star under previous editions like 3rd or 4th. 5th was not balanced between shooting and CC. It was a CC edition, except it had Imperial Guard boosted.

5th was not CC. CC had the same problem as 6th: no consolidation into a new combat. So the same kinds of things happened: One squad gets contacted, and the army prepares to shoot the victors.

The consolidation into new combat was ridiculously broken, especially against armies that were not built for CC. Just thought I'd put that out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Truth118 wrote:
I'm certainly not an expert on Tau and I've only fought against them once, but I think the riptide seems to be most of the reason why Tau armies are so OP. Just compare it's abilities to any other unit in the game with roughly the same points value and it's immediately obvious how over-the-top and unbalanced it is. You can take 5 of them in a primary detachment if you want, which is something similar to melting velveeta on a block of cheddar cheese in a bowl of limburger atop a pyre of blue cheese sprinkled with monterey jack.

Take out the riptide and Tau are still very good. Markerlights are a little cheesy, particularly in an edition where cover is vital for survival. Tau would be a little less irritating to fight though, because at least they wouldn't have an invincible MC that can get pretty much all the best USRs in the game, dance around the board and erase entire units from far away. It's less of a game and more of a "Put all of your models away, I win, hurrdurr."

Really satisfying when you kill one though.

This completely. The only thing other than riptides that have really changed is markerlights going from -1 cover per light to ignore for 2. Take out riptides and tau are still good, just not ridiculously so.

Tau are not OP.
The riptide is not OP.
Broadsides are not OP.

There are 2 issues that makes the codex a problem, and when not chosen its not even serious contender for tournament play.

1-the ion accelerator is a bad fit. an AP2 large blast does not belong in an army that can nurture cover. try a HBC riptide-you will see him as the epitome of "can't kill me, but why bother trying" unit.

2-the HYMP broadsides spew insane dakka per price. try the current incarnation of rail broadsides and you will notice that they never quite cover the costs even if left alone.


Everything else the tau codex can throw at you is either fair, meh, or interesting yet impractical.
Even the all-mighty support commander is rendered rather "why would i bother" once you take away his ion accelerator riptides, and turns to be only good for a specific combo.

Want to go over unit by unit?
Ehtreal-super good, but gives away VP, and squishy.
Commanders-except support commander, none is really impressive. and as covered, he needs ion accelerator riptides. good, but not iron hand chapter master shenanigan good.
Farsight-intersting army, but nothing special.
Shadowsun-sneaky git, but overall just a tank hunter.
Anu'va-super ethreal, but cant hide in squads.
Anu'shi-CC ethreal..."yay"
Darkstrider-cool, but costs too much.
Kroot-annoying buggers, but an easy kill.
Fire warriors-great guns, lousy soldiers.
Devilfish-PASS.
Crisis suits-great damage, not very durable.
Stealth suits-sneaky fellows, but not that armed.
HBC riptide-decent, nothing more.
Sun/razorshark-yea, pass. nothing impressive here.
vespid-getting close, but still not there.
Drone squads-well, they EXIST.
Piranha-annoying buggers. I should get some.
Pathfinders-the source of all tau power, on a GEQ body.
Skyray-good AA, limited ammo. decent overall.
Hammerhead-a nice tank, similar to a LR.
Longstrike-proper cost for the power addition.
Rail broadsides-I tried, I shelved.
Sniper drones-amusing, but you need them big guns in HS.


Easy to see, once you take IA and HYMP away, everything is fixed. (or just nerf them a bit)
Now, just 2 OP guns. you know what it looks like?
Chaos marines. you got the crazy balefalmer, and beyond that your army is medicore/poor.

Now, I wont claim tau are by any strach WEAK, but give the codex a go without these two guns, and you will see yourself having some difficult time against pretty much anything else.
And god save you if an iron hand master comes to greet you.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau are not OP.
The riptide is not OP.
Broadsides are not OP.

There are 2 issues that makes the codex a problem, and when not chosen its not even serious contender for tournament play.

1-the ion accelerator is a bad fit. an AP2 large blast does not belong in an army that can nurture cover. try a HBC riptide-you will see him as the epitome of "can't kill me, but why bother trying" unit.

2-the HYMP broadsides spew insane dakka per price. try the current incarnation of rail broadsides and you will notice that they never quite cover the costs even if left alone.


Everything else the tau codex can throw at you is either fair, meh, or interesting yet impractical.
Even the all-mighty support commander is rendered rather "why would i bother" once you take away his ion accelerator riptides, and turns to be only good for a specific combo.

Want to go over unit by unit?
Ehtreal-super good, but gives away VP, and squishy.
Commanders-except support commander, none is really impressive. and as covered, he needs ion accelerator riptides. good, but not iron hand chapter master shenanigan good.
Farsight-intersting army, but nothing special.
Shadowsun-sneaky git, but overall just a tank hunter.
Anu'va-super ethreal, but cant hide in squads.
Anu'shi-CC ethreal..."yay"
Darkstrider-cool, but costs too much.
Kroot-annoying buggers, but an easy kill.
Fire warriors-great guns, lousy soldiers.
Devilfish-PASS.
Crisis suits-great damage, not very durable.
Stealth suits-sneaky fellows, but not that armed.
HBC riptide-decent, nothing more.
Sun/razorshark-yea, pass. nothing impressive here.
vespid-getting close, but still not there.
Drone squads-well, they EXIST.
Piranha-annoying buggers. I should get some.
Pathfinders-the source of all tau power, on a GEQ body.
Skyray-good AA, limited ammo. decent overall.
Hammerhead-a nice tank, similar to a LR.
Longstrike-proper cost for the power addition.
Rail broadsides-I tried, I shelved.
Sniper drones-amusing, but you need them big guns in HS.


Easy to see, once you take IA and HYMP away, everything is fixed. (or just nerf them a bit)
Now, just 2 OP guns. you know what it looks like?
Chaos marines. you got the crazy balefalmer, and beyond that your army is medicore/poor.

Now, I wont claim tau are by any strach WEAK, but give the codex a go without these two guns, and you will see yourself having some difficult time against pretty much anything else.
And god save you if an iron hand master comes to greet you.

That's all well and good but on the table, the army as a whole is OP and obviously so.

 MWHistorian wrote:

That's all well and good but on the table, the army as a whole is OP and obviously so.

They really aren't. They work well together is their main strength. If you take out the riptides, this codex is practically identical to the old one.

The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.

And the worst part is that the Tau are easier to deal with than Daemons or Eldar.

I started to play Tau the second their codex came out, leaving my 750 points of Space Marines Raptors Chapter in a bin for the rest of eternity. I fell in love with the Tau as they had mechs, and as a Battletech fan from the age of 6 (My older cousing regularly played, and let me play the computer games and card game with him) that was all I needed to fall in love, as the dreadnoughts of the Space Marines were simply not doing it for me.
From the day I started playing Tau they were hit or miss against most armies. I never really seemed to have a solid advantage of any kind against any army, and the codex offered few unit combinations that could stand up to what would become known in 4th and 5th edition as death star units. I never placed in a tournament until I was 19 years old and took second once with my Tau in all of 4th edition. And once lost a third of my army in a single turn to a Cannoness that kept consolidating into new assaults every victory. Then 5th came out.
I was devastated in 5th edition, and convinced that GW hated Tau as Space Marines became more and more ridiculous to deal with and my few feeble tanks could not stand up to the might of Imperial armor. I slowly learned the worth of broadsides, buying three of them, but as they were only T4 they usually got blasted off the table fast. When Nids and orcs received their codex’s I thought it was the end for my Tau.
With only 2 blast templates in their entire codex the Tau 4th ed codex was drastically outmatched by hordes, and if I prepared for hordes I was destroyed by armor. My army developed a mechanized feel and started to consist of fewer and fewer crisis suits, the reason I chose the army in the first place. Winning became a pipe dream as it became clear playing Tau was playing on hard mode. Despite this I did win first in a single tournament and second in two more, mostly due to tactics, and the incompetence or lack of tactical skill of my opponents as opposed to the worth of my units. I started to rely on manipulating the rules to win, surrounding transports with drones before wrecking it to kill the units inside, ramming, and tank shocking like crazy to make use of my only anti horde weapons, flamers, more effectively. When the Space Wolf dex dropped I almost quit the hobby. Not only did I lose every game, but I never survived past turn 3. 3 local players started Space Wolves armies, and they won every game they played. I started a guard army just to be able to put up a fight, but even then I barely managed to tie games, and never came close to winning a tournament. Than after a long 4 years 6th happened.
I was delighted in the new rules seeing myself become more and more powerful with every game. I started shredding enemy vehicles with incredible efficiency. I picked up 6 more broadsides as my S10 AP1 weapons where now the best anti tank weapons in the game. But slowly the tanks started to disappear and horde armies took their place. I had nothing that could compete, I started flooding the table with Firewarriors hoping to do something, anything to win one game, but no matter what I did they always made it to melee, and I always lost.
When we got our new codex I was delighted, my crisis suits were useful again, and new units like the riptide and missilesides gave me a fighting chance again. We even got new blast templates in the Ion Head and Ion Accelerator, but something horrible started to happen. My once noble and diverse force started to dwindle to two units Riptides and Broadsides, and the rest of my army became obsolete. After investing much money into these units I finally won a tournament beating out Chaos Space marines allied to Daemons, Dark Eldar, and Eldar for first. But the victories weren’t easy, at 2000 points I barely won every game, but the one against Dark Eldar, losing both riptides to melee assaults by Daemons in one game and contesting my way to victory with only a handful of Firewarriors left on the board, and being decimated by Shadow Weaver tanks and Wave serpents in my most challenging game, pulling a victory out of nowhere in the final second using a pair of piranha that counted as scoring to nab an objective worth three points as my last act.
I was convinced after this game that 6th edition was more about how willing you were to use Wave Serpents and FMC’s than anything, as my huge investment of currency in the newest, and most effective models had only won me slight victories. That was until I played a 500 point tournament in which I practically won by de fault for bringing a Riptide. It was then I realized what power the new unit possessed, and how little fun they were to face.
It was at this moment I decided to no longer use Riptides, or Broadsides. I miss having the distinction of playing the game on hard mode, but I have to say it was fun to win a few games, Do I think Tau are overpowered? Yes, in some ways they are the Grey Knights of 6th, and in others they are one trick ponies. To win against all the shenanigans in 6th a Tau player must either exercise tactical brilliance, or bring an army that is so boring to play you hardly understand why you enjoy the game anymore. My new army is noncompetitive and I know I cannot defeat Serpent spam, or take on flying Daemons, but I never had fun playing those lists anyway, I remember how it felt to lose to them before I had the Riptides, before I went broke buying Broadsides, I wanted to quit. And I refuse to do that to my fellow gamers. So no I will not win tournaments at all costs anymore, I will try to outthink, and maybe just outplay these sorts of players, and probably lose doing it. But hey at least, or rather hopefully I will start to have some fun again, because frankly I miss the days when the worst army in the game could beat the best if its owner knew what he was doing and executed his plan perfectly.

They CAN be op yes. BUT if you dont cheese out the list, they are really not OP at all. I saw both orks and non-cultist spam non-heldrake chaos marines beat them the other day.

 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.

This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.

First off, there is nothing wrong at all with asking to see a codex.

Secondly, reserves can be punished any number of ways. I personally don't like reserves except maybe for fast scoring units.

Flyers are a mixed bag. Most fliers in the game now are not that good, so Tau knocking them out doesn't mean much.

BaalSNAFU wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.

This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.

I wish my Markerlights survived past turn 2, they never do, and turn 2 I usually have only a few left. I get that people fear them to no end, but they have never really done me any good, at least not in the long term, as people obliterate them, and the 5+ armor and lack of stealth on the pathfinders makes them pretty easy to wipe.

Buffmanders are a more reliable option, and I can understand hatred of them, but considering they are more expensive than a Farseer and do basically the same thing, but only for one unit, and they have to be in the unit, I don't see them as unfair.

If there was something I would change about the dex it would be to take twin-linked away from high-yield missile pods, and drop Riptides to T5 down from T6. I feel like those changes would make the whole army less overpowered and more middle of the road, but then we would have to do something about Wave Serpents because those units are Tau's only hope against those things.

No.

Have not lost a single game to the new tau yet.

Most players still don't realize how to beat them, of course, I play tau (and have through all of 5th as well, thank you very much) so I know how to beat them.

and yes, this thread.....again.

BaalSNAFU wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.

This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.

I can't decide if this is funny or cringe-worthy when I hear that coming from SM players.

SM's of different flavors are and always have been armies that break a ton of rules. You're just used to it by now and take it as common because there are so many copies of them.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
However you're ignoring just how powerful some assault armies actually are: such as blood angels and grey knights.

I'm not sure if I can comprehend this... We are talking about Blood Angels and Grey Knights here, right?
How are they even remotely relevant to this when a single Riptide can easily blast off a squad of MEQs in a single turn?

After Tau shooting there are maybe two Assault Marines left to charge them and Overwatch will kill those off with no problem.
Against CC armies Tau are extremely OP since you can rip any infantry apart with Overwatch. Your movement also means that getting I to CC will take a lot of time.

I really can't take anyone seriously who believes the Riptide is not OP. Even if the rest of the army is fairly balanced, there is no way someone is being objective by calling the Riptide balanced.

In my honest opinion, the under costed riptide, and the Buffcommander are really what cause the Tau codex to be over the top.

The Riptides IA should be more expensive, and it really should have a 3+ save. It's the 2+ That really puts it over the top.

We know the issues with the Buffcommander already.

I think if those two issues were solved, Tau would not have near as much hate directed at them.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The blood angels death company dreads that do hits than generate extra hits.
They're good because they shredded my 4th edition Nid army in CC.
Grey knights with strength 6 power weapons.

And.... What? Have you actually played against BA/GK ever? Because it truly sounds like you haven't.
Yes, but the DC dread will have to wait single whole turn in which you can withdraw out of assault range and wipe it out with all the heavy weaponry and spammed S7.

And you can't justify the BA being good by saving that they once beat Tyranids D

 Macok wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
The reason people don't like Tau is because they can ignore so many rules that other armies have to abide by. They get to make your cover save go away with any weapon they want, they get to move away after shooting, they can lower your charge distance, hit better on snap shots, and let everyone overwatch. It ends up being a perfect storm of frustration.

This. A million times this. Lets not forget that this is the only army that actually punishes the opponent for using reserves or flyers. Two huge tactical resources in 6th that the fish people never have to worry about. I've never felt like such a rules nazi as I did the first time I played against tau. Mustve asked to see the dex half a dozen times or more.

I can't decide if this is funny or cringe-worthy when I hear that coming from SM players.

SM's of different flavors are and always have been armies that break a ton of rules. You're just used to it by now and take it as common because there are so many copies of them.

Is this the part where you BAWWW about ATSKNF? Well that part is followed up by me informing you (because you've obviously never played as SM) that ATSKNF is one of the most overrated rules in the game. Period. Auto rally doesn't mean squat when the unit has been wiped, which is what Tau and Eldar do with ease. Tell me chief, how many other rules do 6th ed SM break? You give me a list, then we'll compare that to the dozen or so Tau offenses. Hell, I'll just list the significant ones and my list will still be twice as long.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

That's all well and good but on the table, the army as a whole is OP and obviously so.

They really aren't. They work well together is their main strength.

Exactly so - the Tau rely on this unit buffing that unit. A proper board where only some big hitters can get LOS helps a lot, and when you start picking them apart their effectiveness immediately drops by a lot. Don't waste fire on Riptides or battlesuits until you've crippled their support. I've not lost to my mate's Tau yet - my SoB might lose half their models but when he has no Pathfinders, Firewarriors or other scoring units left all I need do is keep one Sister alive to score. Sure, he's not the greatest or cheesiest General but hey, SoB... ;-)

edit: The most common mistake people seem to make is attacking the hardest Tau units first. A Riptide takes a lot of shots to down, a battlesuit not so many but both can do the irritating jump-for-cover in the Assault Phase. Shots toward them are shots not put into the guys that buff them with Markerlights.

BaalSNAFU wrote:

Is this the part where you BAWWW about ATSKNF? Well that part is followed up by me informing you (because you've obviously never played as SM) that ATSKNF is one of the most overrated rules in the game. Period. Auto rally doesn't mean squat when the unit has been wiped, which is what Tau and Eldar do with ease.

It must be strange playing in a world where your opponents OCD means that unless they can wipe out an entire unit they don't fire. There is no way this excuse will ever hold water. If you opponent is never causing break tests and wiping out whole units or causing no casualties at all then you live in a very strange world. Break tests are a very important part of the game and have no bearing on marines who aren't hugging their board edge.

The OP needs to use the search function more, this thread comes up like clockwork and the answer is always the same, the Tau aren't OP, Tau armies that spam the undercosted Riptide, Buffmander and the not too good but still very potent Broadside teams are one of the more powerful armies lists in the game right now.
Without markerlight support even Riptides lose a lot of their teeth, they aren't weak by any means but with 1/6 shots fails to even fire, 1/3 chance to wound themselves, mediocre BS and not ignoring cover they don't actually do that much damage. It's a 1/3 chance to hit and an average scatter distance that means more often than not you won't even hit the area of the board you put the blasts hole over.

I do always find this argument odd: "Tau aren't overpowered, they just have blah and blah and blah that make them more powerful than other armies". I don't have a lot of experience against Tau because they aren't common in my local meta... but saying they aren't overpowered they just have overpowered options doesn't really make sense.

It's like saying a Corvette is no faster than a Prius.... if you jam the Corvette's throttle so it can't open all the way.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I do always find this argument odd: "Tau aren't overpowered, they just have blah and blah and blah that make them more powerful than other armies". I don't have a lot of experience against Tau because they aren't common in my local meta... but saying they aren't overpowered they just have overpowered options doesn't really make sense.

It's like saying a Corvette is no faster than a Prius.... if you jam the Corvette's throttle so it can't open all the way.

then allow me to explain the difference as I see it, it's best explained with the old saying:

All Apples are Fruit but not all Fruit are Apples.

In this case Riptides, Buffmanders and Broadsides are the the Apples and the Tau codex as a whole is the Fruit.

"Tau are OP" as a statement implies the entire codex is OP and that all Fruit are Apples.

It also leads to silly situations where 6 squads of Firewarriors with 3 Squads of Vespid lead by an Ethereal are OP because "Tau are OP". It's lazy, inaccurate shorthand that assumes all Tau players are using cookie cutter tourney lists.