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Tau are not overpowered. As with any recent codex, there's just a couple of really powerful builds.

I think the main reason people find Tau overpowered, is because they can ignore so many rules, and are a pure shooting army. Both very frustrating attributes, but not overpowered. Taudar are a case of perfect synergy, gunline shooting with mobile scoring.

Take the O'vesa star. Depending on the setup, the unit can end up with the following;

2+ saves, 3++/5++, FNP, H&R, ignore cover, 4d6 DTW, fearless, stubborn, tank hunter, monster hunter, re-rolls to hit, split fire, interceptor, skyfire, supporting fire, jet pack moves.

That's why people find them overpowered. Because of all the things that ignore so many rules.

My main quibble with Tau, isn't the strength of their codex, it's what it's forced players to do to counter it. The dreaded screamerstar/seercouncil/centurionstar builds that have arisen since. They're the overpowered ones, and players have arrived at these lists because of the strengths of Tau. And I say that as someone who plays a seer council.

I will add though, the first game I had against Tau with my seer-council was a big case of revenge. I'd been spanked by Tau so many times with my Eldar, I was quite pleased when I tabled a trip-tide list. Turn 2 multi-assault of a riptide, pathfinders and broadsides? Swept them all

Tau are not OP. What I love reading is how everyone complains how they cannot beat them instead of talking about ways to counter them. I play in a very competitive store and the tau players there usually have a very rough time winning games. If they take 3 riptides? Space Marines spam grav guns with either a bike army or Centurions. Having issues with a Tau gunline army? if you're playing Imperial Guard take artillery and swarms of infantry, or even spam Leman Russ battle tanks.

Now I can agree that Allies really are somewhat ridiculous when it comes to the combos that can be created. however it all boils down to adaptability and the willingness to change up your tactics in order to win. I love fighting armies that claim to be the powerhouse of 40k, it provides an exciting challenge that even if I lose I will find ways to beat it and will overcome it eventually.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

I never said that the tau codex was bad. What I said was that it is not all OP. The tau codex, for the large part, has not changed. Taudar has nothing to do with tau OPness. And I would be greatful if you knocked off all the personal and non-directed personal attacks. What we are talking about is the Tau Codex.

Seconded, keep it civil Kain, discuss the post content not the poster.

 Kain wrote:

What makes the Riptide so aggravating is that it has a pinpoint accurate large blast that instant deaths most infantry models and ignores their saves unless they're lucky enough to have an invulnerable save or have T5+ and FNP.

I wouldn't call it pinpoint, lets look at the base state 33% to hit dead on (slightly higher given you may roll a 2-3 on your 2d6) with an average scatter of 4" that means it won't even hit the original centre, may well still score some hits on larger units though.
So to get pinpoint you'd want BS7 (to ignore the average scatter) but lets say BS5 as in most cases that would be sufficient to still hit the original target and of course we want it to ignore cover so that's 4 markerlight hits.
Course you can make it BS12 and it still has a 18-19% chance to miss from an overheat before you even start with everything else.

That's 8 Pathfinders or (Did I read right Tetra's are Heavy 2 TL?, I'll use that) 3 Tetra's (I don't know Ramora stats and how many it would take I'm afraid nor can I comment on their toughness) and this is for each Riptide. So now it's firepower has gone up significantly but it is relying on these 5+ save, AV11(?) light skimmers to do it, meaning it's own relative toughness does nothing to protect that first damage loss.

Prescience/Guide takes the base hit chance up to 55% for a hit is less accurate than markerlights *but* the Farseer can be hidden away somewhere tough to crack and is far less vulnerable as a result. You also aren't getting the ignore cover aspect outside of an O'Vessa-Star and rolling up Perfect Timing.

Now, all this isn't to say the Riptide isn't a bit too good, I think it is, the high strength low AP2 and potential for high accuracy and cover ignoring are not to be sniffed at but your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources to get more than one firing in such a way and you don't have to penetrate it's own thick armour to drastically reduce that firepower.

 Sasori wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.

The Wraithknight is actually pretty fairly balanced.

Yeah it's only got a 3+, doesn't have that many shots unless you pay another 60 points on top of an already expensive base cost and doesn't have a stock invulnerable save. It's priced very fairly.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

I never said that the tau codex was bad. What I said was that it is not all OP. The tau codex, for the large part, has not changed. Taudar has nothing to do with tau OPness. And I would be greatful if you knocked off all the personal and non-directed personal attacks. What we are talking about is the Tau Codex.

Seconded, keep it civil Kain, discuss the post content not the poster.

 Kain wrote:

What makes the Riptide so aggravating is that it has a pinpoint accurate large blast that instant deaths most infantry models and ignores their saves unless they're lucky enough to have an invulnerable save or have T5+ and FNP.

I wouldn't call it pinpoint, lets look at the base state 33% to hit dead on (slightly higher given you may roll a 2-3 on your 2d6) with an average scatter of 4" that means it won't even hit the original centre, may well still score some hits on larger units though.
So to get pinpoint you'd want BS7 (to ignore the average scatter) but lets say BS5 as in most cases that would be sufficient to still hit the original target and of course we want it to ignore cover so that's 4 markerlight hits.
Course you can make it BS12 and it still has a 18-19% chance to miss from an overheat before you even start with everything else.

That's 8 Pathfinders or (Did I read right Tetra's are Heavy 2 TL?, I'll use that) 3 Tetra's (I don't know Ramora stats and how many it would take I'm afraid nor can I comment on their toughness) and this is for each Riptide. So now it's firepower has gone up significantly but it is relying on these 5+ save, AV11(?) light skimmers to do it, meaning it's own relative toughness does nothing to protect that first damage loss.

Prescience/Guide takes the base hit chance up to 55% for a hit is less accurate than markerlights *but* the Farseer can be hidden away somewhere tough to crack and is far less vulnerable as a result. You also aren't getting the ignore cover aspect outside of an O'Vessa-Star and rolling up Perfect Timing.

Now, all this isn't to say the Riptide isn't a bit too good, I think it is, the high strength low AP2 and potential for high accuracy and cover ignoring are not to be sniffed at but your opponent has to dedicate a lot of resources to get more than one firing in such a way and you don't have to penetrate it's own thick armour to drastically reduce that firepower.

Remoras used to be fast skimmers in reg 40k, noy they are 10/10/10 2HP shrouded flyers for 90 points and come in squadroms of 1-5. They can't get any upgrades though. Tetras are kind of inersting, their makerlight started out as just a regular makerlight, so nobody took them, in the old IA:3 it was a High-intensity ML (heavy 4) and they came with a free disruption pod, and in the new book they are 1-4 10/10/10 2HP fast open-topped skimmers with scouts, the nerfed high-intensity markerlight (heavy 2 TL). They got a free hoing beacon though, and they have always have a TL pulse rifle.

Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?

A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?

A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?

A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.

Welcome to my nightmare... We have two blob armies, a massed guard army and a massed ork army in my local meta. They are almost impossible to prevent from getting to and tying up my units... Many a game for me has resulted in a Firewarrior vs Imperial Guard nerf bat fight over no mans land.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?

A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.

Welcome to my nightmare... We have two blob armies, a massed guard army and a massed ork army in my local meta. They are almost impossible to prevent from getting to and tying up my units... Many a game for me has resulted in a Firewarrior vs Imperial Guard nerf bat fight over no mans land.

The closest I can get to that is the 6 full kroot blob army I have been building .

Commissar Benny wrote:
Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.

Not quite... what he said is the codexes were mistakes because they set the false expectation that all forthcoming codexes would be on the same power level as Tau/Eldar.

Which I interpreted as basically saying they don't see a real problem, but it made everyone think that everything else would be balanced around Tau/Eldar, which is bad because there was no intention of doing that.

Forget the Wraithknight, it was the Wave Serpent and Seer council that did it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Wasn't an article published on reddit/BoLS/Faeit 212 a few months that interviewed a GW exec that more or less came out & said:

"The Tau/Eldar codices are far more effective than we intended"

&

"Riptide/Wraithknight were mistakes"

Does anyone else remember this article or have a link? I just attempted to find it again but wasn't able to locate it.

Not quite... what he said is the codexes were mistakes because they set the false expectation that all forthcoming codexes would be on the same power level as Tau/Eldar.

Which I interpreted as basically saying they don't see a real problem, but it made everyone think that everything else would be balanced around Tau/Eldar, which is bad because there was no intention of doing that.

Forgive the rest of us mortals for wanting to be equally good as our Taudar overlords? Is there a link to this?

Martel732 wrote:
Forgive the rest of us mortals for wanting to be equally good as our Taudar overlords? Is there a link to this?

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/01/an-interesting-conversation-with-gw-rep.html

Mentioned how the Tau and Eldar books were mistakes in that they elevated expectations for the remaining 6th ed books. Said not to expect all (any) books to be quite on that level going forward. Mentioned how it's probably nice for "us" that the books were so strong. [brought up after i mentioned the tyranid book, escalation, dataslates.]

Tau benefit from the current rules more than any army. If the assault/intercept/overwatch rules were balanced properly we'd have a better game with more variety. Beating a double riptide Taudar list is more difficult than it should be, I don't understand why anyone would even field that list outside of a money tournament. Yet I see casual flgs matches ruined on a weekly basis by try-hard win obsessed players.

Tau and Taudar are way more detrimental to the game than SHA and Escalation.

Wow. What a douche. I'm very tempted to wait until C:BA drops and just sell all my stuff. I can't believe they came out and said those things. They just openly admitted to not giving a feth about their own game.

Martel732 wrote:
Wow. What a douche. I'm very tempted to wait until C:BA drops and just sell all my stuff. I can't believe they came out and said those things. They just openly admitted to not giving a feth about their own game.

Well to keep it in context, there's no knowing WHO said that; as I recall it was never stated. It's not so terrible if it was some wannabe-bigshot store manager. On the other hand if it was someone in the Studio... well, the proof is in the pudding.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?

A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

Yeah, except you ignore terrain and the fact there are other models on the table. That unit also costs 270pts minimum (50x4 =200pts conscripts + 70pt naked Lord commissar). So you're using a 270pt unit to tie up a 180pt+upgrades riptide from turn 4 or maybe 3 onwards assuming nothing gets in your way like terrain or another unit that bogs you down for several turns.

Units that large are crap in combat are rarely a good idea. They can occupy a large portion of the table, yes, but they end up too expensive for a single unit, difficult to manoeuvre, struggle to get a fraction of their guns within range of a single target and while you might feel you are controlling a large portion of the table, they are really just occupying it until they get in combat with something (at best) they can't kill or comprehensively beats them because they suck so hard.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?

A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

Yeah, except you ignore terrain and the fact there are other models on the table. That unit also costs 270pts minimum (50x4 =200pts conscripts + 70pt naked Lord commissar). So you're using a 270pt unit to tie up a 180pt+upgrades riptide from turn 4 or maybe 3 onwards assuming nothing gets in your way like terrain or another unit that bogs you down for several turns.

Units that large are crap in combat are rarely a good idea. They can occupy a large portion of the table, yes, but they end up too expensive for a single unit, difficult to manoeuvre, struggle to get a fraction of their guns within range of a single target and while you might feel you are controlling a large portion of the table, they are really just occupying it until they get in combat with something (at best) they can't kill or comprehensively beats them because they suck so hard.

First off my you did not asking if brining them was a good idea, you asked how one would get them to combat. My response to that question was a simple, how do you prevent them from getting to combat? There are 50 of them with Ld 10, there are only a few current tournament lists that could cope with such a huge blob.

Secondly, the point is not that they win combat, only that they stay there. Though I have never fought conscripts I can imagine they would function much in the same way as the 30 strong infantry squad blobs I regularly face. Though the infantry squads the guy at my club uses are usually fielded with a single standard commissar not a Lord Commissar, and usually have krak grenades, the idea is to tie a unit up, making them no longer useful. Not to kill it. The blob players at my game store regularly use these blobs to tie up my riptides, seer stars, wraith knights, daemon princes, and even carnifex. They rarely win the fight, but these valuable expensive units are stuck fighting something they are sub par at killing instead of doing their intended damage. For instance against me he uses them as area denial units, preventing me from moving my fusion blasters within 18" of his leman Russ. This means I have to rely on glancing his side armor to death or try to kill his hordes. And it is extremely frustrating to be such a maneuverable army, yet unable to move.

Third and finally if you want to know how to use conscripts effectively. I suggest using exactly what I have already suggested, 50 + a Lord Commissar, and buying Chezchof. Their ability to come back from reserves after you remove them at full strength can be very useful. I would field them in a way to best tie up as much as possible. Send them forward and wait till turn 4. On the start of your 4th turn remove them from the board. On turn 5 they auto come in from reserves 50 strong again and can waltz up to any and all objectives within 12" of your table edge and capture/contest all of them. This would free up the rest of your army to move forward and capture other objectives.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Oh wait you did. Can you tell me how to get conscripts in to melee range with tau against a model that is faster then them and has 2-3 friends and not get killed while crossing the board ?

A 40k table is 4' by 6', deployment ranges are 12" from the edge of the table, so that makes it 36" to the enemies board edge and 36" to either side of the table. I t also makes roughly 50.9" to either corner. You have 50 conscripts I am assuming and a Lord Commissar, if you do not use 50 and a Commissar you are doing it wrong. 51 bases and 2" coherency means you can control an area of up to 73" wide by 4" deep if you place 25 of them in front and 25 with the Lord Commissar behind. they can move 6" a turn and will run roughly 3.5" per turn. If deployed in this way they will provide a maximum of 4 hits per large blast template, which given the size of the squad, will do nothing important to them. Considering a Riptide's base has a 3" depth at its most narrow point, they would have to cover 33". 2 turns of movement make 19" putting you within 14" on turn 3 at the furthest. If you then move 6" forward that would put them at 8" away, this would give them a 1/3 chance of successfully assaulting. And since they can take up the entire board they will make it there by turn 3 or at the latest is turn 4.

That would be a hilarious army to play against . Such a long movement phase.

Welcome to my nightmare... We have two blob armies, a massed guard army and a massed ork army in my local meta. They are almost impossible to prevent from getting to and tying up my units... Many a game for me has resulted in a Firewarrior vs Imperial Guard nerf bat fight over no mans land.

I would absolutely love to play against a force like that. Ranks of fire warriors pouring heaps of pulse rifle fire into the advancing wall of dudes, crisis suits jumping around trying to tie them up/ get at any back line staff, large blast templates raining down...but there's just so many of them that I can't kill enough and they finally get to my lines and we get tied up in the combat that will never end.

I wouldn't even mind losing that game. Being able to cause so many casualties to my opponent on the way across and just watching the wall keep advancing would be its own reward.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
First off my you did not asking if brining them was a good idea, you asked how one would get them to combat. My response to that question was a simple, how do you prevent them from getting to combat? There are 50 of them with Ld 10, there are only a few current tournament lists that could cope with such a huge blob.

First off, I didn't ask the question at all, that was someone else

I wouldn't prevent them from getting to combat, I'd prevent them from getting to combat with anything important. Tarpit units aren't awesome when they're so expensive and so large that they occupy most of the board when you're fighting against an army that isn't actively trying to assault you (such a unit might be effective against an army that's actually trying to charge your own expensive squishies, something Tau isn't doing). When you start to get close to tarpitting a unit I care about (around turn 3), just charge it with something I don't mind having tied up for the rest of the game.

Secondly, the point is not that they win combat, only that they stay there. Though I have never fought conscripts I can imagine they would function much in the same way as the 30 strong infantry squad blobs I regularly face. Though the infantry squads the guy at my club uses are usually fielded with a single standard commissar not a Lord Commissar, and usually have krak grenades, the idea is to tie a unit up, making them no longer useful. Not to kill it. The blob players at my game store regularly use these blobs to tie up my riptides, seer stars, wraith knights, daemon princes, and even carnifex. They rarely win the fight, but these valuable expensive units are stuck fighting something they are sub par at killing instead of doing their intended damage. For instance against me he uses them as area denial units, preventing me from moving my fusion blasters within 18" of his leman Russ. This means I have to rely on glancing his side armor to death or try to kill his hordes. And it is extremely frustrating to be such a maneuverable army, yet unable to move.

Like I said, that only really works if you can get the tar pit unit to the thing you want to tarpit. Such a tarpit is more useful as bubblewrapping as you mention, I don't really see them being useful for making the long trek across the battlefield to tarpit a unit that probably has some bubble wrapping of it's own.

The 30 large guard units are a slightly different story. They can act as bubble wrapping, they are smaller and more mobile and when given a 1st rank fire 2nd rank fire order they can actually do a bit of damage with their flashlights. Also you choose to blob together your guardmen during deployment, so you have the option of not blobbing them together if you decide you would rather have more scoring units instead of one big tar pit. Not saying conscripts are bad or anything, just they don't quite fulfill the same role as a 30 large guardsman blob.

Third and finally if you want to know how to use conscripts effectively. I suggest using exactly what I have already suggested, 50 + a Lord Commissar, and buying Chezchof. Their ability to come back from reserves after you remove them at full strength can be very useful. I would field them in a way to best tie up as much as possible. Send them forward and wait till turn 4. On the start of your 4th turn remove them from the board. On turn 5 they auto come in from reserves 50 strong again and can waltz up to any and all objectives within 12" of your table edge and capture/contest all of them. This would free up the rest of your army to move forward and capture other objectives.

What happens to the Commissar when you do that? Anyway, I feel like that's a different kettle of fish we are talking about here. You already said it takes 3 to 4 turns to reach the riptide you want to tar pit, now on turn 4 you're going to suicide them (I'm assuming that costs you the victory points as it says they're removed as casualties, I've never run Chenkov myself). Doesn't seem like a great option.

If you're talking about using them for bubblewrapping the rest of your army that's another matter, but not really what we were talking about in the context of this discussion (ie. using them as an effective means of tying up a riptide).

I assume we were talking about an actual effective battleplan of tying up a riptide, not simply the fact that in isolation with nothing else on the board they could physically reach a riptide even though it's not actually going to gain you anything in an actual battle. If we are talking about the latter, my mistake.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
This again?

WHAAA I HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HOW TO BEAT THIS CODEX WITH MY BATTLEFORCE ARMY

Yeah, this again.

Sorry about that, I did not intend to make that towards you, In my hast to reply in the short walk from my department's office to my jeep I must have accidentally included the "you" there. My most sincere apologies, I had no intention of singling anyone out.

What happens to the Commissar when you do that? Anyway, I feel like that's a different kettle of fish we are talking about here. You already said it takes 3 to 4 turns to reach the riptide you want to tar pit, now on turn 4 you're going to suicide them (I'm assuming that costs you the victory points as it says they're removed as casualties, I've never run Chenkov myself). Doesn't seem like a great option.

If you're talking about using them for bubblewrapping the rest of your army that's another matter, but not really what we were talking about in the context of this discussion (ie. using them as an effective means of tying up a riptide).

I assume we were talking about an actual effective battleplan of tying up a riptide, not simply the fact that in isolation with nothing else on the board they could physically reach a riptide even though it's not actually going to gain you anything in an actual battle. If we are talking about the latter, my mistake.

To this I can say that the Lord Commissar would most likely die as he would be left in combat alone. For this reason I would not make him my warlord. This strategy of recycling the conscripts would only apply to objective based games in which kill points do not count. Finally the 4th turn assault describes the worst case scenario, a situation in which your opponent is so devious and so tactically incline that he is able to avoid getting into combat until that last second 4th turn assault. It is more likely that they would get into combat 2nd or 3rd turn as terrain, objectives, and your other units would force the opponent to move in such a way as to prevent them from hugging the bard edge. Against most armies this unit would be better served using melee to tie up models, but against Tau and Eldar the strategy changes slightly. This squad would be worse than the 30 man infantry squads against Eldar, no krak grenades to threaten the Serpents, but the idea against both is the same, area denial. The goal is to put them where you don't want the enemy to go, or use them to box the enemy in. If done correctly you can push the opponents full force to a single corner, prevent them from moving onto objectives, and give your army free reign over the battlefield. Against me as I said the 30 man blobs are often sent towards my riptide solely to prevent me from getting to melta range. Blobs are devestating, and worth many times their points. It is my humble opinion that a Ld 10, stubborn, or fearless blob is just as tactically flexible as an Aegis Defense Line. I make this claim in so far as they both offer cover to your army, but despite being able to be targeted and eventually whittled down, blobs can move forward and corner your foe.

What Tau player has trouble killing 100 guardsmen? Provided you took a sufficient amount of fire warriors those guardsmen shouldn't ever cross the board.

NO. Not at all.

 EmilCrane wrote:
What Tau player has trouble killing 100 guardsmen? Provided you took a sufficient amount of fire warriors those guardsmen shouldn't ever cross the board.

What Firewarriors are you supposed to use to kill them when they are being deleted a full squad at a time by Hellhounds and Colossus? The guy isn't dumb, he hit Pathfinders and Firewarriors first knowing that the broadsides would have to pick whether to stop the oncoming horde or take out the approaching chimera and leman russ. He never aimed at the broadsides or riptides, he knew how to beat me, because he knew his own weaknesses.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:
This again?

WHAAA I HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HOW TO BEAT THIS CODEX WITH MY BATTLEFORCE ARMY

Yeah, this again.

And award for least useful post goes to Scipio Africanus!
Yes, because everyone that loses to Tau has an unpainted battleforce army that their parents bought them for Christmas.
We have a lot of experienced players from all kinds of backgrounds using all sorts of armies and lists and the vast majority say that Tau are overpowered. Does this mean they're invincible? No. But what it does mean as that they are more likely to win not because of player skill but because their units have stats and abilities that overpower their opponents. Aka: Its not a fair fight. You'll probably say "Life aint fair..he he he, just learn to play betterer or somethin'." No, this is a game where a random pick up game should expect to see a close to even chance of either player winning.
That is not the case for the majority of the people.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Okay so what I'm reading is...

Actually you'll notice there was absolutely no return on the fact that the Tau codex is chock a block with non-OP units mostly because unless you tear the pages out, it is. Just because you only see 4 units in the whole dex being used does not remove the fact the others exist nor does it somehow impose OP status on units like Vespid, your personal meta does not equal the game in totality.
Please don't come into a thread where people are trying to have a reasonable conversation and attempt to spark offence and anger without contributing anything to the discussion, we've got too many folks skirting the line of MOD involvement already.

Are there OP units in the codex, yes, is the Tau codex OP in totality, no.
Will competitive scenes only field those high power spectrum armies, yes.
Does that mean Tau will do well in these scenes, yes.
Does that mean all those games where those units are minimal/not used are being fought using an OP army, no.
Does that make Tau OP, no.
Does that make Riptides/Buffmanders/Broadsides a little OP, yes (for a given value of OP)

I almost feel like it's just coming down to arguing the meaning of "Tau are overpowered".

Group A) If you think that several (but not all) overpowered units make an overpowered army, then Tau are overpowered.

Group B) If you feel that every (or some large proportion there of) unit in a codex must be overpowered to warrant calling it an overpowered army, then Tau aren't overpowered.

I tend to err on the side of Group A, because overpowered options typically means, in general, the army will do better. Every army can self-nerf, it's the nature of wargames. But I still think it's an overpowered army if your self nerfing (through taking less powerful, perhaps more fluffy/thematic choices) takes you from overpowered to average, while an army like 'nids or BA if you do the same thing it takes you from average to really crap.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Every army can self-nerf, it's the nature of wargames.

See that's the crux of it, you are assuming everyone starts at "choose the best list" and has to self nerf whereas I see it that to make a good tourney list you need to practice and hone which is a self *buff* over the ground state of players.

The "casual" list is more the natural ground state from my viewpoint.

The problem is that there is no such thing as a "Casual List" in this game because of imbalance. I played a casual team game right after the New CSM book came out and took the new models I liked and had painted which included Spawn and a Heldrake. Needless to say the game was not much fun for my opponents when the heldrake was wiping a unit a turn.

That is largely the issue. It is entirely possible to make casual lists that stomp other casual lists, without the intention to do so.

Codices like Tau are OP because it is very possible to have people stumble into very OP lists when playing casual.

Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.