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 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
They have 5 wounds, and if 40 guard fire with first rank fire second rank fire at one riptide, that amounts to 120 dice. 60 hit, 10 wound. on average. And this does not include their lascannon... it is just stupid devastating. He hides his tanks behind the guard which are in turn behind the defense line, so I can't get close enough to use melta, and I am glancing him on 5's and they get a 4+ cover save... it is hard to beat. Especially considering those 30 man guard blobs are intended to take down monstrous creatures like my riptides, and my broadsides get wiped by the plasma tanks so fast it makes me sad. Guard are one of the better matches for Tau in this edition from what I have seen. Guard and Daemons... I hate Daemons... Invulnerable saves on everything and they always get to melee... Takes a lot of work to beat them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a 220 point model better have T6, a 2+ 5++, and FNP... that is a lot of points to drop on a single guy with BS3 and WS2.

You forgot to add in the 2+ armor and FNP on the end of your calculation. Only 11% of the successful lasgun wounds actually wound. That's 1 wound from 120 shots, so SIX HUNDRED SHOTS on average to down one.

It sounds like you need to visit the tactics board if you're having trouble with guard as tau. His cover shouldn't matter, and any front armor that isn't 14 that is threatening to you should be downed quick. You shouldn't even be in range of 600 lasgun shots until you're down to JUST them left, and you've pretty much won at that point.

I played against guard a few times with previous tau, and typically wiped them, with some damage. Played them with 6th tau a few times, typically wiped them with my dead pile being a number of models I could count on one hand.

Next time you play against the guard player, post a batrep so we can find some areas where your tactics could use improvement.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.

1.) Markerlights return to -1 Cover save per light (the current rule is badly worded, and too good) and cannot be used in overwatch.

2.) Units may only benefit from one signature system at a time.

3.) All units wishing overwatch a unit declare the overwatch simultaneously, not unit A overwatches sees result, then B sees results and so on.

4.) Riptides reduced to 4 wounds.

5.) Vespids weapon to 18" Assault 2 S4 AP3 Haywire.

That is about it without taking points into account.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.

-Remove MSSS/CnC node
-Make riptide a jetpack walker with typical dreadnought armor and 3 HP. Add special rule in for the drones to be in his unit, but the unit is not joinable by any other IC.
-Shadowsun's stealth and shrouded apply only to herself.
-Core rule change: All deepstriking units snap fire anything heavier than a pistol, to bring them in line with deep striking assault units. (mainly aimed at farsight bombs here.)
-Markerlights remove cover 1 point at a time, can't cause grounding tests, and can't be used to improve snap shots.
-Core rule change: Insert some detriment to overwatch here. Removal of "repercussion-free" overwatch attempts.
-Nerf a wound off of crisis commanders/farsight. 4 wounds? seriously? The only big CC downside they suffer compared to MEQ HQ's is low WS, and that's literally the least damning downside in the game. WS 1 still hits WS 10 33% of the time.
-Make vespids a little cheaper.

That should just about do it. Most of the things in the Tau codex are good. I said when I first saw the book: "I could throw darts at the unit selection and come out with a decent army."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again on the riptide. I believe it still remains point-for-point the most broken single unit in 40k. The best bargain IMO being an IA tide with no upgrades at 185. They're just WAAAY too damn sturdy for that point cost. The shooting is good, but would be okay if it wasn't mounted on a nigh invincible monster. They also get all the monstrous creature rules, including fear and smash. Even with crappy WS, they still hit 4's on troops and 5's on good CC special characters, and instadeath plenty of them with smash.

Yknow what I get for around that point cost? Gabriel Seth, a dedicated melee fighter. If I magically get him to melee with the 'tide without getting instagibbed? Smash attack instadeath if I fail a single 4+ invuln. Meanwhile Seth manages to get 1 wound past the armor every 3rd round of combat, with 1 rend every other round, therefore needing 6 rounds of combat where he never suffers a single smash hit to win.

A shooting model in a shooting army with incredible range has no business being that sturdy and absolutely no business being able to beat closely costed melee special characters IN MELEE. (bear in mind this is a tide without FNP)

The only saving grace is nova charge. I see "questionable" tau players use that thing every turn, and of course they pay for FNP to help survive the overheats. The tau players I fear most are the ones that realize that nova-charging is a trap, and only use it when the situation REALLY calls for it. And that happens maybe one turn every 3 games or so. In line with that, they also don't waste points on any of the upgrades, and keep the thing at 185. That way, any suicide squad paid significantly more to off it than they paid for it to begin with.

Tactical tip to struggling riptide players: stop nova charging. You're just making your own unit easier to kill. That extra shot of your sub weapon isn't worth it.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.

It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.

 Sasori wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.

It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.

I agree with this statement a lot actually, these changes would more than fix the issues of balance. Now how to fix Eldar....

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.

It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.

I agree with this statement a lot actually, these changes would more than fix the issues of balance. Now how to fix Eldar....

It's really the same thing with Eldar. There are just a few problem units, most of the codex on the whole is fairly balanced.

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Just curious, how would some of you Tau haters "fix" the myriad issues you think the Tau codex has? And I don't just mean removing the good gak and leaving the bad gak, either, I mean balancing the book: fixing what's broken, but still preserving the army's flavor and keeping them both fun to play and viable/competitive without removing anything or making really drastic changes.

I don't think you could do it, honestly. You'd either go too far and make them unplayable, or maybe even go out of your way and feth them over on purpose out of spite. But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong, and it might be a good excuse to make this thread a little more constructive, instead of the big fat flame-fest on a fast track to getting locked like it currently is.

It's really simple actually.

For the Riptide, give it a 3+ save, and make the IA +30 points.

For the Buffcommander, it's clear the Puretide chip needs to go. That would solve a lot of the issues.

For the HYMP, Simply dropping it to 3 shots would do it.

I feel that's all that would really need to be done to solve the major balance issues in the dex. This doesn't nerf the Tau into crap tier, it just simply fixes what is actually broken.

I agree with this statement a lot actually, these changes would more than fix the issues of balance. Now how to fix Eldar....

It's really the same thing with Eldar. There are just a few problem units, most of the codex on the whole is fairly balanced.

I agree completely, just wish the stupid Serpent shield problem went away. I would like to see an eldar army not comprised of 4-6 tanks with minimal jet bike support. The only reason I bought my riptides, a unit I swore never to purchase, in the first place was that they could survive the serpent spam. Until I got them, and I only have 2, I never won, or came close to winning against serpent spam.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I agree completely, just wish the stupid Serpent shield problem went away. I would like to see an eldar army not comprised of 4-6 tanks with minimal jet bike support.

Out of curiosity, do you dislike that kind of an army on principle, or just because its fairly overpowered?

 Blacksails wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I agree completely, just wish the stupid Serpent shield problem went away. I would like to see an eldar army not comprised of 4-6 tanks with minimal jet bike support.

Out of curiosity, do you dislike that kind of an army on principle, or just because its fairly overpowered?

I dislike any army that defeats some half of the codexes in existence by de fault. This is why I swore not to buy riptides, or missile sides, I swore never to be that guy. But after 6 months of our resident Serpent spam player running a near identical list in every week's tournament I decided to shut him down. I much regret purchasing 2 riptides and 3 broadsides with which I easily defeated him 2 weeks in a row. We swore to a cease fire after that, I removed my new models from the table and he stopped using more than three wave serpents in any given tournament. He has since won second a few times and first once, but using a more diverse list. I feel confident I fixed my own meta, but then he could at any moment revert, in which case I would be forced to as well.

The best part is since this occurrence Orks have won second once, guard have won first twice, and CSM have won first once. I have regularly won second, but rarely higher, as I no longer use competitive lists.

So to clarify; its not that you dislike an army of wave serpents and jetbikes, its that you dislike the power level that army represents.

Put another way, would you dislike a force like that if it was generally underpowered?

 Blacksails wrote:
So to clarify; its not that you dislike an army of wave serpents and jetbikes, its that you dislike the power level that army represents.

Put another way, would you dislike a force like that if it was generally underpowered?

I might be a little disappointing in the player. That list would and is hardly fun to play against, but no I would have no issue with it on a moral level if it were not OP.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I might be a little disappointing in the player. That list would and is hardly fun to play against, but no I would have no issue with it on a moral level if it were not OP.

Different strokes and all that, its just that a wave serpent/grav tank heavy army with supporting jetbikes is not only fluffy, but appeals to my sense of redundancy and symmetry.

Just curious if you hated that style of army purely on its power level or a combination of power level and your own taste in armies.

 Blacksails wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

I might be a little disappointing in the player. That list would and is hardly fun to play against, but no I would have no issue with it on a moral level if it were not OP.

Different strokes and all that, its just that a wave serpent/grav tank heavy army with supporting jetbikes is not only fluffy, but appeals to my sense of redundancy and symmetry.

Just curious if you hated that style of army purely on its power level or a combination of power level and your own taste in armies.

Grav tanks would make it more fun, I was saying a purely serpent spam army with one seer council on jet bikes is unfun. Not that grav tanks and jet bikes would be. I agree with you that kind of list appeals to me.

Completely agree that sorting out the really OP / Problem units would do a lot for the game.

Reduce the durability of the Riptide

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

The largest issue the serpent has is that it is a dedicated transport. If it were say a heavy support option, it would be strong, but a limit of 3, and giving up other units to include it would go a long way.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Completely agree that sorting out the really OP / Problem units would do a lot for the game.

Reduce the durability of the Riptide

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

It really is that simple.

Most of the current OP books, really only suffer from a few units that need to be toned down. Between that, and BB not allowing ICs of different armies to join other armies units, we'd be a lot more closer to competitive balance.

For the Serpent, honestly, I think if the Shield was D3 it would be fine. Still incredibly durable, but is the most expensive dedicated transport in the game.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?

Problems with the Wave Serpent:

Its the only DT the Eldar have so they currently pretty much have to use them and as its very OP it then makes it worse by being in the game with multiples
Its good at everything from killing enemy ground units to flyers and is hard to kill
Its weapon is range 60" is powerful, ignores cover and is pinning and extremely effective against enemy opposite numbers / light vehicles - especially since its supposed ot be only used in Extremis, its D6+1 shots and usually TL...just sickening
it is durable with 3HP and AV12 front and sides - then you add the shield.............
The Shield is very powerful - not only protecting it from anti-tank weapons by turning them into mere glances but........
Not only this but the Shield invariably stops the serpent from suffering stunned or shaken results and so means that its passengers are immune to thsese effects which can render even troops that disembark useless for a turn - especially those with flamer type weapons

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?

Problems with the Wave Serpent:

Its the only DT the Eldar have so they currently pretty much have to use them and as its very OP it then makes it worse by being in the game with multiples
Its good at everything from killing enemy ground units to flyers and is hard to kill
Its weapon is range 60" is powerful, ignores cover and is pinning and extremely effective against enemy opposite numbers / light vehicles - especially since its supposed ot be only used in Extremis, its D6+1 shots and usually TL...just sickening
it is durable with 3HP and AV12 front and sides - then you add the shield.............
The Shield is very powerful - not only protecting it from anti-tank weapons by turning them into mere glances but........
Not only this but the Shield invariably stops the serpent from suffering stunned or shaken results and so means that its passengers are immune to thsese effects which can render even troops that disembark useless for a turn - especially those with flamer type weapons

Doesn't using the 60" weapon remove the main defence issue?

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Dee cheese the horrifc Wave Serpent - which is just a bad if not worse.

What exactly makes the Wave Serpents so OP? Their options or just the amount of them?

Problems with the Wave Serpent:

Its the only DT the Eldar have so they currently pretty much have to use them and as its very OP it then makes it worse by being in the game with multiples
Its good at everything from killing enemy ground units to flyers and is hard to kill
Its weapon is range 60" is powerful, ignores cover and is pinning and extremely effective against enemy opposite numbers / light vehicles - especially since its supposed ot be only used in Extremis, its D6+1 shots and usually TL...just sickening
it is durable with 3HP and AV12 front and sides - then you add the shield.............
The Shield is very powerful - not only protecting it from anti-tank weapons by turning them into mere glances but........
Not only this but the Shield invariably stops the serpent from suffering stunned or shaken results and so means that its passengers are immune to thsese effects which can render even troops that disembark useless for a turn - especially those with flamer type weapons

Doesn't using the 60" weapon remove the main defence issue?

well its has to drop down to its still good armour and jink/holofields save, if its not in cover. as well..............and if you have AT weapons left to try and hit it. and of course this is all dictated by the Eldar player who gets his shield back next turn - having used the "emergency" weapon.

Tau can certainly give even the best of players a run for their money vs a mediocre player with properly kitted Tau. However, there are many many ways to overcome them even without all the new non-regular FOC extra crap. I guess vs a very good player with all the right competitive favorites it would be a bugger to deal with. But here are my ideas:

Grey Knights w Coteaz and Henchmen, and IG allies getting barrage alpha strikes (with Coteaz helping to get 1st turn) can do some serious hurt. His 'been expecting you can also do some major pain to any deepstriking crisis bombs. Some Warp Quakes are good for that too. Servo Skulls could help those Pathfinders to stay where you don't want them by preventing Scout/Infiltrate, whatever they have.

A huge Grimoired Flesh Hound/JuggerHerald unit is often the way, actually always the way, I beat Tau (and Eldar for that matter). Typically at least a couple Hounds and most of the time all the Heralds get into their lines and beat the crap out of everything, including Riptides. Multi-charging is also a good tactic (vs Wave Serpents especially, though I digress), though with Supporting Fire, a tricky one at best with Tau. This and Telepathy psykers also properly defeat them nicely.

I could also a Drop Pod army of various sorts working well, assuming something could take care of the Taus with Early Warning Override. That little upgrade does indeed screw over many a tactic, but I don't think every unit can take it, though most of the ones that matter do take it. But I don't think you can fire Interceptor twice in the same turn, there's probably a thread about that somewhere?

Dark Eldar I think would have a very rough time actually since their vehicles die to bolters. But I guess the so-called Beastpack could work? Or is that with Eldar allies only? I don't play either one, nor have a I played vs a Beastpack.

Orks? Ummm.....

Chaos Marines, I'm liking the Huron/Typhus/Zombie/Obliterator style. Vast hordes of shambling wounds closing in fast (well not that fast) along with good shooting and some psyker/CC threats (usually in a Land Raider with 7 man Plague Marine squad). Heldrakes don't seem to last very long for me vs Tau sometimes, but probably a good idea to have in there. I nearly had that game won, but I didn't deploy wisely and forgot to charge with my zombies in a turn. Otherwise I think I'd have had that in the win-sack.

Space Wolves, drop pods, Rune Priests, Logan w split firing relentless Long Fangs either dropping in OR in Land Raiders OR outflanking with a Hunter Saga Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Wulfen in every squad just because there's nothing more amazing than werewolf space Vikings!

And if all else fails, just get a Reaver Titan.

Weirdly, there's one change I'd like to see that'd *upgrade* the Tau in one area. (After fixing things like the RIptide, natch.)

I'd like for the Pulse Carbine to change from the current 18" Assault 2 line to a 12" Assault 3 line.

Right now, it's the same as a Pulse RIfle at 15" or less and vastly worse at 19-30", so that it's only really effective at 16-18", a tight window indeed. Switching it up to an Assault 3/12" gun would put it in a place between Pulse Rifle and Burst Cannon, as well as providing some close range punch for Tau to help fend off assaults.

Gun Drones would be kinda scary. Not super-scary, but enough to make you think for a minute.

Beyond those, and the rather spiffy changes noted above, I'd probably make some small changes for thematic reasons. Tau use base 8 math rather than base ten, so more 4, 8, and 12 units instead of 3 or 5. Introduce a Commander in a Stealth Suit instead of a Crisis Suit for those that want to make stealthy mission styles. Tack on another alien unit or two.

But I'm probably getting off target at this point, so, I'll shush.

They already have Shadowsun as the stealth suit commander.

I think what needs to happen is a range nerf on tau firepower. Basically as soon as tau turn 1 happens (assuming he is smart). His gunline opens up, models drops, his cannons open up and more drop, his suits stop and pop then more drop and then he coats your biggest thing still standing in markerlights so now whatever's left is easier to kill next round.

He doesn't need to move much beyond firing arc adjustments and doesn't need to even claim midfield. He gets first blood, he cab potentially get other vp's, stands there and waits for you to die.

Nerfing range by say 25-33% would force him off his rear, into the fight, and probably make tau players feel a lot more in line with everyone else. Because right now other armies who lack their firepower or the range of their guns feel like the Americans during the start of the revolutionary war. Their lining up to get shot and by the time their in a position to do some good their now forced to sit their and trade blows with the undisputed MASTERS of standing in fields, lining up, and shooting things.

You don't believe me? Go watch 6th edition tau vs tau matches. It's two armies standing across the board shooting at eachother until there's nobody left standing.

Keep their cannons, reduce their range and the tau are actually a pretty fair army to fight.

ionusx wrote:
I think what needs to happen is a range nerf on tau firepower. Basically as soon as tau turn 1 happens (assuming he is smart). His gunline opens up, models drops, his cannons open up and more drop, his suits stop and pop then more drop and then he coats your biggest thing still standing in markerlights so now whatever's left is easier to kill next round.

He doesn't need to move much beyond firing arc adjustments and doesn't need to even claim midfield. He gets first blood, he cab potentially get other vp's, stands there and waits for you to die.

Nerfing range by say 25-33% would force him off his rear, into the fight, and probably make tau players feel a lot more in line with everyone else. Because right now other armies who lack their firepower or the range of their guns feel like the Americans during the start of the revolutionary war. Their lining up to get shot and by the time their in a position to do some good their now forced to sit their and trade blows with the undisputed MASTERS of standing in fields, lining up, and shooting things.

You don't believe me? Go watch 6th edition tau vs tau matches. It's two armies standing across the board shooting at eachother until there's nobody left standing.

Keep their cannons, reduce their range and the tau are actually a pretty fair army to fight.

To me Tau were always about mobility. That was their strength in 4th and 5th, and they were second only to Eldar at it. This addition saw the Missileside and the disappearance of the Advanced Stabilization System, which has lead to a vast immobile fire base in the armies of many Tau players. However immobile lines cause problems, some armies can pick on you if you chose that strategy. In my meta only one out of three Tau players play a fire line army. My pathfinders never move after scouting, but my Firewarriors run right at the enemy, people know my rapid fire range and avoid it. I have to run at them to use storm of fire. My crisis teams either run forward or deepstrike/infiltrate and are always in my enemies face. And every riptide I have seen fielded ran forward and tried to get in Melta range, or even smash attack to help deal with AV14 vehicles. The only things that even make sense not to move forward are missilesides, and I have seen players avoid their range the whole game. 36" is not to great.