Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

barnowl wrote:
the Chimera should have the same problem, 3 guns in each side arc, but I have yet to play someone that does not use all 6 with a 360 fire arc.

The Chimera's rules explicitly tell you that five models can fire from the top hatch and the gun-ports are ignored.

well its 5 firing points now i think anyways.

I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

 AdeptSister wrote:
I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

But they don't. 20 shots at bs4 is 4 dead marines a turn on average. Certainly better than lasguns. But not amazing.

 AdeptSister wrote:
I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

Against a model with T 4, 3+ Armour Save and a 5+ cover save, they are about as good as Shuriken Catapults (same chance of a wound per hit, but different ranges) and worse than Pulse Carbines (similar chance to wound, fewer shots at 18"). With a 4+ cover save, they are less effective than bolters. They also fare a lot worse against T 5 units (like the popular marine bikers) and can't harm T 7 models or AV 10 vehicles at all.

The only situation where they are actually good is when there is no cover. Granted, Focus Fire helps a lot with that and Deep Striking or riding in a Fast vehicle offers some opportunities too, but their short range and limited selection of targets they are good against makes things pretty tough for them.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

Against a model with T 4, 3+ Armour Save and a 5+ cover save, they are about as good as Shuriken Catapults (same chance of a wound per hit, but different ranges) and worse than Pulse Carbines (similar chance to wound, fewer shots at 18"). With a 4+ cover save, they are less effective than bolters. They also fare a lot worse against T 5 units (like the popular marine bikers) and can't harm T 7 models or AV 10 vehicles at all.

The only situation where they are actually good is when there is no cover. Granted, Focus Fire helps a lot with that and Deep Striking or riding in a Fast vehicle offers some opportunities too, but their short range and limited selection of targets they are good against makes things pretty tough for them.

Still, Biker Marines are somewhat more expensive, and everybody here is forgetting that you're going to have A) FRFSRF B) Probably at least one M.T exclusive order buffing your fire and C) Special weapons like plasma/melta adding to the fusillade.

And considering that your typical Grav Biker Squad of 5 isn't much cheaper than a full Scion Squad with 2 plasmas, I'd say that's quite reasonable.

I think I worked out that a full squad of scions with FRFSRF and volley guns assuming all hotshot lasguns are STR4 should kill like 4 bikers a turn. Thats a rough quick calculations.

I like the idea of 4 volley guns in the command squad. In a Chimera that makes a pretty ferocious stationary firebase. The squad alone kills about 5 MEQs a turn. If it had just a touch more range it would b e really killer. Accurate mass fire, decent strength, and AP3.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Still, Biker Marines are somewhat more expensive

That's not really relevant, because the comparison is not how good they are compared to bikers, but how good they are compared to similar troops shooting at bikers.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
and everybody here is forgetting that you're going to have A) FRFSRF B) Probably at least one M.T exclusive order buffing your fire

Orders are neither free nor guaranteed to work, but yes, it makes them better than they would be otherwise. A little better at shooting MEQ at 18" than Dire Avengers, by my back-of-an-envelope numbers. On the other hand, the Dire Avengers are better at pretty much everything else.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
and C) Special weapons like plasma/melta adding to the fusillade.

Other units can also have special weapons and I'm far from convinced that they are always worth the points.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
And considering that your typical Grav Biker Squad of 5 isn't much cheaper than a full Scion Squad with 2 plasmas, I'd say that's quite reasonable.

Bikers are also able to handle many more jobs that the Scions. They are more mobile, much better at assaulting and able to threaten tougher targets.

Hate the Taurox model, if I get (1) any it will be to make it into a Duece and a 1/2 (2 1/2 ton truck transport for army squads).

Rules wise its not too shabby, The amount of Dakka they can send out is noteworthy.

Your giving up 1 Front Armor compared to a Chimera and can get AC's instead of ML's yes please. (ignoring FW tracked vehicles)

If you were playing mech guard in 6th you were giving up FB and more than likely losing in KP game anyway, so little change there.

I think deploying my ADL right at mid board, then turn 1 running em 12" (for the fast ones) up to the base of the wall, Dawn of War deployment your within range of all your weapons, with a 4+ cover.

How about the different BS values for the two tanks?

Aye, BS4 trumps BS3 all day, everyday.

Well one is piloted by storm troopers, and the other is piloted by guardsman.

Once again, I find the taurax growing on me. I think the rules are decent and it might be fun to have a small inquistion force from the storm troopers army.

I am really interested in seeing what the IG HQs do now. I think that and the orders system will really determine the viability of the army.

I am really interested in seeing what commissars are going to do now, especially the lord commisar.

I really like that scions are cheaper!

I like that they still have deepstrike abilities, and now have move through cover as well.

You can take up to 3 squads and if you choose a command squad for one elite choice.

According to the white dwarf rumor scions will have some orders and FRFSRF will benefit them!

I will say I dislike that there arent any doctrines, although the scion supplement or the actual guard codex might have something for them(keeping my fingers crossed).

But in all reality they are still just guardsmen with 4+saves and a better bs.

I wonder if the platoon standard or medic will have any different rules, I am surprised they got cheaper!

Well after seeing the leakwed pages I am pretty depressed.
The Taurox is ok, its weak and will die easily but it offers something different and is cheap, so you can spam it.
I am, ok with that and think the rules were handled well.#

Its the renamed and otherwise fethed up stormtroopers that get me, 25pts for a power fist is proof that GW still aren't listening and dont think things through beyond the new shiny.
With the company in the state they are in they should be thinking clearly now.

I think the addition of the Taurox Prime Battle Cannon is kind of neat. I could see the TPBC and the TLAC working in tandem to shred Firewarriors, Dire Avengers and GEQ across the board with their 48" range + 12" movement. Actually with range like that you could put camo nets on them, slap them in some ruins and blast away the whole game. Put a min squad in there to jet out 24" inches on turn 4, then 6" move and 6" disembark onto an objective.

Camo nets behind an aegis and just blast away. It would be difficult against eldar, but then you got the guys that would have been inside the vehicles deep striking in with meltas and plasmas. They then have to actually worry about using their serpent shields which is where most of the issue will come from.

Personally I think there will be two good builds for the prime. Taking the missile launcher in combination with the twin linked Autocannon would be an excellent anti-armor and monstrous creature hunter while the Gatling gun and hot shot Laz volley gun being another good anti-infantry build. Yes they are more expensive than a chimera but for Ballistic Skill 4 and more firepower I can understand why. Thinking a mechanized army of these would be pretty effective as you can take up to 8 in a list (2 HQ and 6 Troops, possibly more) as their speed and ability to fire all weapons at full Ballistic Skill could be effective in the right hands. Also as mentioned, you don't even have to mount the men inside them.

In a scions list you can take 4 per troop slot.

I was thinking they could be a sweet supplement for a Knight list.

Take 3 knights as primary, fill with scions buying primes. Have most of the scions deep strike and target threats to the knights then have the knights advance. Could be interesting.

 Leth wrote:
In a scions list you can take 4 per troop slot.

I was thinking they could be a sweet supplement for a Knight list.

Take 3 knights as primary, fill with scions buying primes. Have most of the scions deep strike and target threats to the knights then have the knights advance. Could be interesting.

Put the Tauroxes behind the Knights, get 5+/4+ cover and move up the board at the same pace, since Knights move 12'' a turn iirc.

Also depends on how orders work and things of that nature. Will be interesting to see if they start to occupy the same time as psychic powers or if they stay at the shooting phase. Because from the wording of some of the orders it seems like they will take place during the movement phase or earlier

 Sinji wrote:
Couple of questions.

1) Why does one transport say 10 models and the other say ten models.

2) Why does it say under the cammands squads options that 4 models can choose from the special weapons list and underneath it say each of the special weapons separate.

I'm calling BS on this one.

I noticed it too. Not sure why no one has responded to it...

I also noticed that they used the words Codex:Astra Militarum and Codex: Imperial guard.

Seriously making me doubt the validity of this

 Ignatius wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Couple of questions.

1) Why does one transport say 10 models and the other say ten models.

2) Why does it say under the cammands squads options that 4 models can choose from the special weapons list and underneath it say each of the special weapons separate.

I'm calling BS on this one.

I noticed it too. Not sure why no one has responded to it...

I also noticed that they used the words Codex:Astra Militarum and Codex: Imperial guard.

Seriously making me doubt the validity of this

Its not BS, because I'm holding the frigging magazine with the rules in, in my hands right now, as have many other people since Saturday.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Couple of questions.

1) Why does one transport say 10 models and the other say ten models.

2) Why does it say under the cammands squads options that 4 models can choose from the special weapons list and underneath it say each of the special weapons separate.

I'm calling BS on this one.

I noticed it too. Not sure why no one has responded to it...

I also noticed that they used the words Codex:Astra Militarum and Codex: Imperial guard.

Seriously making me doubt the validity of this

Its not BS, because I'm holding the frigging magazine with the rules in, in my hands right now, as have many other people since Saturday.

Easy killer. I apologize but man I don't really think that was completely necessary.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
4 deepstriking Meltaguns for 125 ain't terrible, but LOTD do the same thing for 145 and they get ignores cover and a 3++.

I don't see them being played competitively. Maybe as Knight hunters?

I'm a little confused with the 4 melta shots. Does it not say only 2 guys can be upgraded?

 Insane Smile wrote:
I'm a little confused with the 4 melta shots. Does it not say only 2 guys can be upgraded?

Command squads can have 4, normal squads can have 2.

I would probably take a vox though, as order reliability may do a lot to enhance these guys.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Insane Smile wrote:
I'm a little confused with the 4 melta shots. Does it not say only 2 guys can be upgraded?

Command squads can have 4, normal squads can have 2.

I would probably take a vox though, as order reliability may do a lot to enhance these guys.

Especially if FRFSRF order works on the Scions, personally I am loving the look of a list of these guys, already planning on taking a 2000pt. detachment of these bad boys to go with my Elysian Drop Troops.

I just read it and realized you can have one command squad per scion squad.

If they are troop choices then you could have 6 scion command squads and 6 scion squads for a total of 36 special weapons that deep strike in.

I like it.

I think I'll pass. The taurox has already been explained for its crapulance, but I'm not sold on the infantry either.

Basically, what you're talking about is just carapace mechvets that can take an extra special weapon. Hard to see why you'd take them other than aesthetic. Or, of course, if they nerf vets like the rumors say, but we'll have to wait and see.

Otherwise, though, they're not REALLY stormtroopers. They're missing the +1A, and, much more importantly, are missing the special missions. There's just less you can do with them. Not a real substitute, it seems to me.

Which is sad if this is where it's going. There was always a difference between stormtroopers and mechvets, and it would be a bummer if we start living in a world where there's not.

They will have unique orders in the Scion book, don't think we know if those will carry over to the IG book yet.
That should go some way to differentiating.