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Sorry if this has been covered a million times, but do the cultists squads in the Helcult formation from the Helbrutes data slate count as scoring units? Asking for a friend...

As of now, if a unit that is part of a formation is a unit you can purchase from your Troop section of the FOC it is widely known to still be a scoring unit.

The problem is that per the rulebook, scoring units normally come from the troops selection of the FOC, though there are specific times where other things will be added (BGNT and The Scouring being the more obvious method).

Since the Cultists are Troops, but do not come from the Troops selection of the FOC an argument can be made that they are not scoring.

HIWPI, they are scoring units.

Yeah, see, that's the thing, they are Troops, so I'd count them as scoring units, just as I would say, an allied unit of Necron Warriors for my Blood Angles (lawl).

But, since as mentioned, they don't take up a troop slot on any FOC so yeah, I could also see the ruling being made that they are not. Anyone have any official response to this? I really don't want to waste my 30 seconds emailing GW when I know they won't respond.

 Walnuts wrote:
Yeah, see, that's the thing, they are Troops, so I'd count them as scoring units, just as I would say, an allied unit of Necron Warriors for my Blood Angles (lawl).

But, since as mentioned, they don't take up a troop slot on any FOC so yeah, I could also see the ruling being made that they are not. Anyone have any official response to this? I really don't want to waste my 30 seconds emailing GW when I know they won't respond.

It comes down to how you read the formation rules. A formation is a detachment that has a set organization. This set organization is found in a list form in the dataslate. However, since they didn't take the time to add a line and block chart some people argue that it doesn't have a "slot" to fill inside the set organization--even though all the units in the set organization fill the same battle field role they normally do in the codex.

As a counter-point to that: There are a limited number of FOC slots that are innately scoring. (barring the odd mission that adds extras 'like the scouring' as noted by another poster) The formations do not take up any of those. Indeed, they can allow you to have many more of many specific units than a given FOC actually accounts for.

Personally I tend to go with all troop-classed units being scoring unless otherwise stated even if not selected as part of an FOC, but I believe RAW is that they are not since there is nothing intrinsic to being able to be picked as a 'troop' class of unit that makes a unit scoring, it's being taken as a troop 'selection' (of the force organisation chart) that does it.

Last in depth thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/575701.page

As posted on GW Dig until the page was removed, this was also repeated across Nafka and others so will be widely used.

Q:Hey I just downloaded the dataslate and I like it a lot! A question, though - the manufactorum genestealer formation says broods may not add genestealers - can I add brood lords to those units? Also do they count as troops for scoring objectives? Thanks!

A-Hey Jonathon,
The unit is the same as the one that appears in the codex in all regards, so the unit's battlefield role stays the same as do any options that aren't specifically mentioned as being changed.

The above is not gospel GW said this like an FAQ is, but as its been repeated over several sites asking the same question so it's been around.
**

What I think;

Yes, because...

The issues is the BRB tells you scoring units are 'normally' from the troops selection of the FOC. As formations etc. sit outside the literal force org chart as displayed in the BRB, they do not score.

The BRB Force org chart is out of date. Unfortunately were in a period where much of the BRB is out of date and conflicting information is everywhere, this is not helping answer these questions and will be causing confusion for new players. Formations cannot sit outside the FOC, they are in addition to other detachments, but the definition of the Force Org is everything you may take in your army - According to the BRB, you cannot take something which is not in the FOC - of course, with the formation rule sets very much allow us to take a formation detachment, and describe this is separate from your other detachments (note; does not say its separate from the FOC, which would have been an easier way of putting it if they actually meant that). I believe the writers made some assumptions that once told we can add a detachment we would realize they are part of the FOC by falling under the banner everything you may include in your army. This probably isn't a problem for more casual players but the dakka hammer strikes hard on the RAW deal here.

From reading other threads I think what the general player's perception of a Force Org Chart is and what its described as in the BRB are not the same thing. I spent some time reading over those 2 pages concerned and to me it seems more fluid than people think.

Literally the BRB tells us we can only have items in our army which is from the FOC, and those troop choices are scoring. The formation rule sets conflict with both these things. BRB RAW you can't take formations, to allow formations is to admit the Force org chart as displayed in the BRB is incorrect, then its up to players to decide what they want to do.



Additionally....
The formation rules say the units chosen function in an identical way as the corresponding units from the rule book. As do units which are created outside the FOC during the game, for example Tervigon spawning.
Now on the thread I linked there is some discussion 9starting Pg3/4)of if these should not be the same thing because one is 'Identical to the unit from the codex', and one is 'Identical to the unit chosen from the codex', personally I believe the word chosen is non consequential (But you can read that for yourself). This means Formation troops are about as scoring as spawned troop choices, and since were happy to let them score....

Yeah I agree, and have no problem with anything that would ordinarily count as a troop choice to count as scoring too. (such as appropriate units created as part of special rules later on in the game)

You are right though, literal RAW really socks it to the use of formations, the FOC rules and wording just do not allow for them to function properly.

Well according to RAW you can't use formations at all, so if you are using them you're already not playing by literal RAW.

Besides, we allow Tervigon-spawned Termagants and Portalglyph-spawned Daemons to score, and they're not selected via the FOC.

Why can you not use formations at all? Permission to use them is granted by page 108 brb and the formations themselves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why can you not use formations at all? Permission to use them is granted by page 108 brb and the formations themselves.

The formations themselves yes, I wouldn't really count the passage on page 108 as useful when deciphering rules...

With the points limits agreed, players need to pick their forces. The best way to do this is to make use of the army list in their relevant codex, although, of course, players are free to either adapt the army list or use their own system if they wish.

The purpose is not to say formations cannot or should not be used, its simply pointing out the rules in the BRB do not cater to them.

PRs statement was that you cannot use Formations at all - yet the formations themselves give permission to use them, so I do not understand the premise PR Is working frmo.

Page 108 tells you which books you may use to select your army, "Codexes". Ignoring the offence on pluralisation, This means that anything that doesn't have "Codex" printed on the front is, technically, not a valid source of rules according to strict RAW. The FAQ is also mute on the matter of other sources.

Thus, we are operating under the reasonable interpretation that Games Workshop wouldn't release rules for 40k without making them legal to use in the game.
Therefore, using rules from Formations, supplements, etc. is RAI, not literal RAW.

I hope that clears up what I meant.

Not got my iPad or rulebook here, but in Vanguard it says:

"a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3) and for formations, "the Levels of Alliance Rules do apply to them." (p4) It further states that, "the battlefield role... can be found in the dataslate."

Detachments are in the FOC IIRC. So I reckon the argument that the Formation is not in the FoC is spurious. BUt I"m typing in haste so feel free to ambush me.

PR - no, it tells yo uthe best way. BY definition, that isnt the *only* way

The formations also specifically state their inclusion in 40k, and as they are more specific they override the BRB in any case (as you are claiming a general restriction is in force, this is explicit permission to use them in games fo 40k)

Ah, but if you don't have permission to use their rules, how do you use the rule that gives you permission to use their rules?

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating disallowing anything but codices any more than I think we shouldn't let Wraithguard draw line of sight.

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. Scoring is not an attribute of a specific unit in most cases, so just because Genestealers or Cultists are in the Troops section of the FOC for the primary and allied detachment, doesn't necessarily mean they are to be counted as Troops in the formation detachments. Genestealers by themselves are not scoring, but when they come out of the Troops section of the FOC, they count as scoring.

Genestealers and Cultists in the formations have the same rules as those entries that also happen to be listed in the Troops section of their respective codex's FOC, but does that automatically make them scoring when taken outside of the Codex FOC? I'm not so sure, since scoring isn't an innate rule for those units.

For example, if there was a special character that turned an Elite unit into Troops, and then made the standard Troop units for that army into Elites (is there such a character, seems familiar but can't swear to it), does that mean that those former Troops units are still scoring? They are still the same unit with the same rules, but take up a different FOC slot. The same logic could easily be applied to Formations. Its not the unit itself that is scoring, its the location it occupies on the FOC.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'm kind of on the fence with this one. Scoring is not an attribute of a specific unit in most cases, so just because Genestealers or Cultists are in the Troops section of the FOC for the primary and allied detachment, doesn't necessarily mean they are to be counted as Troops in the formation detachments. Genestealers by themselves are not scoring, but when they come out of the Troops section of the FOC, they count as scoring.

Genestealers and Cultists in the formations have the same rules as those entries that also happen to be listed in the Troops section of their respective codex's FOC, but does that automatically make them scoring when taken outside of the Codex FOC? I'm not so sure, since scoring isn't an innate rule for those units.

For example, if there was a special character that turned an Elite unit into Troops, and then made the standard Troop units for that army into Elites (is there such a character, seems familiar but can't swear to it), does that mean that those former Troops units are still scoring? They are still the same unit with the same rules, but take up a different FOC slot. The same logic could easily be applied to Formations. Its not the unit itself that is scoring, its the location it occupies on the FOC.

??? The formations tell you each role, genestealers in the formation are listed as Troop choice. This is known as a battlefield role or Force org, and -everything- barring dedicated transport have their own role/force org, formation units, supplement units, codex units..... Nothing differs in that regard.


BRB Page 108 under header force organization for that.