Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Lamo wrote: I think all this de stuff is moot...All I'd do is ditch the vindicator take a bastion with a comms relay and put it in the corner with a dp behind it. You can't shoot me because you can't see me. Then next turn most of the stuff I want comes on.
Flingitnow, Don't forget GTG in area gives you a +2 to your cover save instead +1 so them cultists getting a 3+.
But as was said, its a moot point, no matter how you slice and dice it DE can't handle most of the power builds because of its age (even if its not as old as lets say Orkz).
DE are probably one of the most competitive armies out there right now. The Eldrad Beaststar is one of the strongest deathstars going right now. Its eaten O'Vesastar and Gravstar. At the top of the Tournament scene its all about your Deathstar. Whilst Marine+Tau deathstars have been top for a while the Beaststar has recently taken the scene by storm. So I'd say DE are one of the 3 top tier armies right now with Marines and Tau. Eldar (seer council) and Daemons (screamerstar) being the 2nd tier as their Deathstars are weaker.
FlingitNow wrote: DE are probably one of the most competitive armies out there right now. The Eldrad Beaststar is one of the strongest deathstars going right now. Its eaten O'Vesastar and Gravstar. At the top of the Tournament scene its all about your Deathstar. Whilst Marine+Tau deathstars have been top for a while the Beaststar has recently taken the scene by storm. So I'd say DE are one of the 3 top tier armies right now with Marines and Tau. Eldar (seer council) and Daemons (screamerstar) being the 2nd tier as their Deathstars are weaker.
No one said beast star is weak... What's weak is venom spam. I would also say that the screamerstar is very susceptible to all of that rng but on the other hand many lists are weak to each other. I would say the strongest list in the game (obviously imo) centstar with tau support has a tough time vs daemons (and many tournament/battle reports I've read seem to agree with me) what makes centstar viable is that really with the exception of daemons I would say everyother match up if favorable to them. I would also argue that the flying circus is about even with de beast star at tourneys because it wins big when it wins and gives some of the top tier armies fits.
The original list is pretty weak but put in 4fmc and 3drakes (kairos and a tz prince coming from daemons) and you have a pretty powerful competitive list.
I would imagine that FMC spam would do well vs beaststars, not because they do a lot of damage to them, but that as long as they fly, they cannot be assaulted, Flingitnow could you post the total point cost for the beaststar with eldar allies (if you have the time)?
I don't run Beaststar and my DE codex is missing so I couldn't tell you the points. Basically it is the Baron leading a max unit of Khymerae beasts with Eldrad. It's one of the cheaper deathstars in my recollection around 800-900 mark.
As for which is best? My personal favourite is GraVesastar but that is mega points. Escalation throws all the deathstars out the window though. So it depends on you meta Revenant Titans in particular are stupid.
FlingitNow wrote: I don't run Beaststar and my DE codex is missing so I couldn't tell you the points. Basically it is the Baron leading a max unit of Khymerae beasts with Eldrad. It's one of the cheaper deathstars in my recollection around 800-900 mark.
As for which is best? My personal favourite is GraVesastar but that is mega points. Escalation throws all the deathstars out the window though. So it depends on you meta Revenant Titans in particular are stupid.
Deathstars are kind of funny because they really range. A screamerstar is the cheapest I think coming in at between 600-800(3-4 heralds of tz and 7-9 screamers) but like all death stars need support. Kairos is a requirement in 99% of daemon armies so I dont even count his points (hes pretty good).
Tbh I wish some of the shooting armies didn't have to be so damn good at it because then we wouldn't really be stuck in this deathstar format.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/31 16:49:06
FlingitNow wrote: DE are probably one of the most competitive armies out there right now. The Eldrad Beaststar is one of the strongest deathstars going right now. Its eaten O'Vesastar and Gravstar. At the top of the Tournament scene its all about your Deathstar. Whilst Marine+Tau deathstars have been top for a while the Beaststar has recently taken the scene by storm. So I'd say DE are one of the 3 top tier armies right now with Marines and Tau. Eldar (seer council) and Daemons (screamerstar) being the 2nd tier as their Deathstars are weaker.
No one said beast star is weak... What's weak is venom spam. I would also say that the screamerstar is very susceptible to all of that rng but on the other hand many lists are weak to each other. I would say the strongest list in the game (obviously imo) centstar with tau support has a tough time vs daemons (and many tournament/battle reports I've read seem to agree with me) what makes centstar viable is that really with the exception of daemons I would say everyother match up if favorable to them. I would also argue that the flying circus is about even with de beast star at tourneys because it wins big when it wins and gives some of the top tier armies fits.
The original list is pretty weak but put in 4fmc and 3drakes (kairos and a tz prince coming from daemons) and you have a pretty powerful competitive list.
Just won a RTT with Venom spam vs DA, Eldar and SM white scars. Seems pretty weak...
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010
FlingitNow wrote: DE are probably one of the most competitive armies out there right now. The Eldrad Beaststar is one of the strongest deathstars going right now. Its eaten O'Vesastar and Gravstar. At the top of the Tournament scene its all about your Deathstar. Whilst Marine+Tau deathstars have been top for a while the Beaststar has recently taken the scene by storm. So I'd say DE are one of the 3 top tier armies right now with Marines and Tau. Eldar (seer council) and Daemons (screamerstar) being the 2nd tier as their Deathstars are weaker.
No one said beast star is weak... What's weak is venom spam. I would also say that the screamerstar is very susceptible to all of that rng but on the other hand many lists are weak to each other. I would say the strongest list in the game (obviously imo) centstar with tau support has a tough time vs daemons (and many tournament/battle reports I've read seem to agree with me) what makes centstar viable is that really with the exception of daemons I would say everyother match up if favorable to them. I would also argue that the flying circus is about even with de beast star at tourneys because it wins big when it wins and gives some of the top tier armies fits.
The original list is pretty weak but put in 4fmc and 3drakes (kairos and a tz prince coming from daemons) and you have a pretty powerful competitive list.
Just won a RTT with Venom spam vs DA, Eldar and SM white scars. Seems pretty weak...
not to rain on your parade but unless I know the actual list you played against that means nothing lol. I in fact commented on your separate post about how you won an rtt and said some lists would be faced with a rude awakening (including mine if I dont bring a bastion) but...winning a three game tourney against da (mehh). An eldar with two wraith knights and 4 wave serpents that you seized against(which is the worst list eldar can take vs your army), and a white scars grav list which I'd assume wouldn't do very well against you (but thats a positive since thats one of the meta lists you beat well) doesn't say much.
I'm not saying your list is bad but playing against three armies that your list should pummel doesn't say its amazing. It's great you were able to read your meta and bring a strong DE list, but your list has clear weaknesses in fliers of all kinds. Skyblight tyraninds, necron croissant army, daemons fmc/ heldrake spam... all eat your list for breakfast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/31 19:44:50
FlingitNow wrote: DE are probably one of the most competitive armies out there right now. The Eldrad Beaststar is one of the strongest deathstars going right now. Its eaten O'Vesastar and Gravstar. At the top of the Tournament scene its all about your Deathstar. Whilst Marine+Tau deathstars have been top for a while the Beaststar has recently taken the scene by storm. So I'd say DE are one of the 3 top tier armies right now with Marines and Tau. Eldar (seer council) and Daemons (screamerstar) being the 2nd tier as their Deathstars are weaker.
No one said beast star is weak... What's weak is venom spam. I would also say that the screamerstar is very susceptible to all of that rng but on the other hand many lists are weak to each other. I would say the strongest list in the game (obviously imo) centstar with tau support has a tough time vs daemons (and many tournament/battle reports I've read seem to agree with me) what makes centstar viable is that really with the exception of daemons I would say everyother match up if favorable to them. I would also argue that the flying circus is about even with de beast star at tourneys because it wins big when it wins and gives some of the top tier armies fits.
The original list is pretty weak but put in 4fmc and 3drakes (kairos and a tz prince coming from daemons) and you have a pretty powerful competitive list.
Just won a RTT with Venom spam vs DA, Eldar and SM white scars. Seems pretty weak...
Congrats it worked for you, reason i'm not all for it is because at my meta venom spam sucks because all the vet players and top tier lists.
FlingitNow wrote: DE are probably one of the most competitive armies out there right now. The Eldrad Beaststar is one of the strongest deathstars going right now. Its eaten O'Vesastar and Gravstar. At the top of the Tournament scene its all about your Deathstar. Whilst Marine+Tau deathstars have been top for a while the Beaststar has recently taken the scene by storm. So I'd say DE are one of the 3 top tier armies right now with Marines and Tau. Eldar (seer council) and Daemons (screamerstar) being the 2nd tier as their Deathstars are weaker.
No one said beast star is weak... What's weak is venom spam. I would also say that the screamerstar is very susceptible to all of that rng but on the other hand many lists are weak to each other. I would say the strongest list in the game (obviously imo) centstar with tau support has a tough time vs daemons (and many tournament/battle reports I've read seem to agree with me) what makes centstar viable is that really with the exception of daemons I would say everyother match up if favorable to them. I would also argue that the flying circus is about even with de beast star at tourneys because it wins big when it wins and gives some of the top tier armies fits.
The original list is pretty weak but put in 4fmc and 3drakes (kairos and a tz prince coming from daemons) and you have a pretty powerful competitive list.
Just won a RTT with Venom spam vs DA, Eldar and SM white scars. Seems pretty weak...
not to rain on your parade but unless I know the actual list you played against that means nothing lol. I in fact commented on your separate post about how you won an rtt and said some lists would be faced with a rude awakening (including mine if I dont bring a bastion) but...winning a three game tourney against da (mehh). An eldar with two wraith knights and 4 wave serpents that you seized against(which is the worst list eldar can take vs your army), and a white scars grav list which I'd assume wouldn't do very well against you (but thats a positive since thats one of the meta lists you beat well) doesn't say much.
I'm not saying your list is bad but playing against three armies that your list should pummel doesn't say its amazing. It's great you were able to read your meta and bring a strong DE list, but your list has clear weaknesses in fliers of all kinds. Skyblight tyraninds, necron croissant army, daemons fmc/ heldrake spam... all eat your list for breakfast.
Skyblight nids and FMC daemons are fine, as my raiders are popping twinlinked skyfire vs them, and my venoms over all will get 6's. All I gotta do is ground em and they're toast. My other army IS fmc daemons, and I realize this.
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010
Look im not going to fight you I'm just pointing out that it has weaknesses to at least a couple of the common lists out there (hell razorback spam was beating it in 5th ). Ill give an example that imo should beat your list. though anything can happen lol.
C:SM
Be'lakor
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake
Daemon (allies)
Kairos
Daemonettes
Tz prince lvl 3
geater, exalted( grimoire)
bastion comms relay
I think this list would give you a hard time and its something I'm thinking about brining to a tourney in 2 weeks. I dont think I could win the tourney with it (because tbhFMC daemons arent't the best list and im a horrible general >.> ) but im sure ill have a good time lolz.
(edit due to stupid animations )
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/31 21:45:38
Lamo wrote: Look im not going to fight you I'm just pointing out that it has weaknesses to at least a couple of the common lists out there (hell razorback spam was beating it in 5th ). Ill give an example that imo should beat your list. though anything can happen lol.
C:SM
Be'lakor
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake
Daemon (allies)
Kairos
Daemonettes
Tz prince lvl 3
geater, exalted( grimoire)
bastion comms relay
I think this list would give you a hard time and its something I'm thinking about brining to a tourney in 2 weeks. I dont think I could win the tourney with it (because tbhFMC daemons arent't the best list and im a horrible general >.> ) but im sure ill have a good time lolz.
(edit due to stupid animations )
I would love to face this with venom spam.
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010
I've played and won against both Beastpack and Venom Spam with my Necron fliers/wraiths/barge list at tournaments. Quite like the idea of playing a list with loads of psychic powers and random rules as a contrast to my crons, but am more worried about Tau than DEtbh... But maybe that's through lack of experience. I'd have thought that Heldrake Spam would be quite strong against either list too. Vector strikes vs venoms, bale flamers against beast pack (you remove models from nearest to the heldrake, right? So baron can only tank wounds with 2++ if he is nearest to the heldrake torrenting the unit, no?)
Despite his lack of numbercrunching, Daly has a point. You're relying on a whopping 60 Guardsman to last possibly two turns against 2000 points. Get a particularly rude Eldar player with 6 spam serpents and you're tabled. And not just the Eldar. Necrons with 6 Doomsday Arks(with double FOC), or Tau Gun line(of any sort, at 2000 points)
School's out, the War Machine rolls once more
6000 pts
Will1541 wrote: Despite his lack of numbercrunching, Daly has a point. You're relying on a whopping 60 Guardsman to last possibly two turns against 2000 points. Get a particularly rude Eldar player with 6 spam serpents and you're tabled. And not just the Eldar. Necrons with 6 Doomsday Arks(with double FOC), or Tau Gun line(of any sort, at 2000 points)
Well they only have to survive 1 turn. Deployment type coukd deny Tau due to the short range on their Firepower. 6 Doomsday Arks are you kidding me? That's 6 more than any remotely competant Necron player would take. It would be 6 Annihilation barges but again range could cost them.
6 Serpents at 2k? Well you're on the right track but I'd expect to face at least 7 most likely 8 at that point level. Lets go with 8.
8 scatter lazers with 3+ cover results in 7.9 kills. 8 shields averaging 3.5 shots ignoring cover is another 17.2 kills. Thats 25 kills. So again unlikely to table in a single turn. Killing 60 guardsmen in turn 1 is actually pretty tough.
In the current meta, DE plays the part of king-maker. Venom spam is a counter to so many of the top tier list but is itself hard countered by wave-serpent spam and massed necron flyers.
I've had a ton of success with my list but have just fallen short of top place in a number of GTs, 2-4th place :S. Deathstar lists, bike lists, Tau, etc all have a hard time with venom spam. Hell I'm currently playing a beast-star and venom spam pretty much tops the list of "What I don't want to play against".
That being said DE are a incredibly high skilled army, if you know what you are doing they are amazing, but if you aren't, they are so many easy killpoints....
gardeth wrote: In the current meta, DE plays the part of king-maker. Venom spam is a counter to so many of the top tier list but is itself hard countered by wave-serpent spam and massed necron flyers.
I've had a ton of success with my list but have just fallen short of top place in a number of GTs, 2-4th place :S. Deathstar lists, bike lists, Tau, etc all have a hard time with venom spam. Hell I'm currently playing a beast-star and venom spam pretty much tops the list of "What I don't want to play against".
That being said DE are a incredibly high skilled army, if you know what you are doing they are amazing, but if you aren't, they are so many easy killpoints....
Considering the competitive meta, I don't think this is all that great. Those Helldrakes don't do much to mechanized Eldar, and can't do enough wounds to the Jetseers.
Farseer Faenyin 7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc) Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
Record for 7th Edition -
Eldar: 0-0-0 (Yes, I feel it is that bad)
Battlefleet Gothic: 2,750 pts of Craftworld Eldar
X-wing(Focusing on Imperials): CR90, 6 TIE Fighters, 4 TIE Interceptors, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced, 4 X-wings, 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, Y-wing, Z-95
Battletech: Battlion and Command Lance of 3025 Mechs(painted as 21st Rim Worlds)
FlingItNow Wrote: Well they only have to survive 1 turn.
Well, unless you actually want to take objectives?
It would be 6 Annihilation barges but again range could cost them.
Unlikely. They can hit the far table edge turn one (as snap shooting is roughly equal to normal shooting due to tesla).
6 Serpents at 2k? Well you're on the right track but I'd expect to face at least 7 most likely 8 at that point level. Lets go with 8.
8 scatter lazers with 3+ cover results in 7.9 kills. 8 shields averaging 3.5 shots ignoring cover is another 17.2 kills. Thats 25 kills. So again unlikely to table in a single turn. Killing 60 guardsmen in turn 1 is actually pretty tough.
1) You have assumed that everything is in 3+ cover... that is not going to happen.
2) Shields average 4.5 shots.
3) Serpents often run shuricannons too...
4) Cultists have a 6+ save, not 5+.
5) You have used mean averages. Modals are far better for expected values.
6) The actual number of kills in one turn (assuming 3+ cover) is 8 + 22 + 6 = 36 kills.
Factor in some morale and you're gonna be looking at around 40-50 dead or fleeing cultists.
And you have to survive two turns of this otherwise the scoring is all gone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/01 17:31:11
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
FlingItNow Wrote: Well they only have to survive 1 turn.
Well, unless you actually want to take objectives?
It would be 6 Annihilation barges but again range could cost them.
Unlikely. They can hit the far table edge turn one (as snap shooting is roughly equal to normal shooting due to tesla).
6 Serpents at 2k? Well you're on the right track but I'd expect to face at least 7 most likely 8 at that point level. Lets go with 8.
8 scatter lazers with 3+ cover results in 7.9 kills. 8 shields averaging 3.5 shots ignoring cover is another 17.2 kills. Thats 25 kills. So again unlikely to table in a single turn. Killing 60 guardsmen in turn 1 is actually pretty tough.
1) You have assumed that everything is in 3+ cover... that is not going to happen.
2) Shields average 4.5 shots.
3) Serpents often run shuricannons too...
4) Cultists have a 6+ save, not 5+.
5) You have used mean averages. Modals are far better for expected values.
6) The actual number of kills in one turn (assuming 3+ cover) is 8 + 22 + 6 = 36 kills.
Factor in some morale and you're gonna be looking at around 40-50 dead or fleeing cultists.
And you have to survive two turns of this otherwise the scoring is all gone.
I'm super happy some people who actually understand how the game plays are starting to post!
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010
FlingItNow Wrote: Well they only have to survive 1 turn.
Well, unless you actually want to take objectives?
It would be 6 Annihilation barges but again range could cost them.
Unlikely. They can hit the far table edge turn one (as snap shooting is roughly equal to normal shooting due to tesla).
6 Serpents at 2k? Well you're on the right track but I'd expect to face at least 7 most likely 8 at that point level. Lets go with 8.
8 scatter lazers with 3+ cover results in 7.9 kills. 8 shields averaging 3.5 shots ignoring cover is another 17.2 kills. Thats 25 kills. So again unlikely to table in a single turn. Killing 60 guardsmen in turn 1 is actually pretty tough.
1) You have assumed that everything is in 3+ cover... that is not going to happen.
2) Shields average 4.5 shots.
3) Serpents often run shuricannons too...
4) Cultists have a 6+ save, not 5+.
5) You have used mean averages. Modals are far better for expected values.
6) The actual number of kills in one turn (assuming 3+ cover) is 8 + 22 + 6 = 36 kills.
Factor in some morale and you're gonna be looking at around 40-50 dead or fleeing cultists.
And you have to survive two turns of this otherwise the scoring is all gone.
Well this would be correct, if
1) cultists GTG in area terrain is a 3+ and unless you play on plain boards with no cover should be easy
2) true
3) not as much as you would think due to being 10 points for often 1 shot
4) true but remember that 3+ cover except when it comes to serpent's shield
5) not even sure what this means with spelling errors and incoherent sentencing
6) this is just weird and illogical....so I will ignore it
FlingItNow Wrote: Well they only have to survive 1 turn.
Well, unless you actually want to take objectives?
It would be 6 Annihilation barges but again range could cost them.
Unlikely. They can hit the far table edge turn one (as snap shooting is roughly equal to normal shooting due to tesla).
6 Serpents at 2k? Well you're on the right track but I'd expect to face at least 7 most likely 8 at that point level. Lets go with 8.
8 scatter lazers with 3+ cover results in 7.9 kills. 8 shields averaging 3.5 shots ignoring cover is another 17.2 kills. Thats 25 kills. So again unlikely to table in a single turn. Killing 60 guardsmen in turn 1 is actually pretty tough.
1) You have assumed that everything is in 3+ cover... that is not going to happen.
2) Shields average 4.5 shots.
3) Serpents often run shuricannons too...
4) Cultists have a 6+ save, not 5+.
5) You have used mean averages. Modals are far better for expected values.
6) The actual number of kills in one turn (assuming 3+ cover) is 8 + 22 + 6 = 36 kills.
Factor in some morale and you're gonna be looking at around 40-50 dead or fleeing cultists.
And you have to survive two turns of this otherwise the scoring is all gone.
Well this would be correct, if
1) cultists GTG in area terrain is a 3+ and unless you play on plain boards with no cover should be easy
2) true
3) not as much as you would think due to being 10 points for often 1 shot
4) true but remember that 3+ cover except when it comes to serpent's shield
5) not even sure what this means with spelling errors and incoherent sentencing
6) this is just weird and illogical....so I will ignore it
So other then that your correct!
Ok I'm not usually one to respond to this kinda thing but:
1) I know, I'm just saying you can't get them all in area terrain.
2) Thank you.
3) Often one shot? How?
4) I know.
5) If you don't understand something, don't just assume it is false. If you wanted clarification, ask, rather than being snide, as I made no spelling errors and the sentences made sense. I was referring to the type of average used (mean averages), which, while accurate as a proportion, are almost meaningless in small samples. The "modals" I refer to are a different type of average which indicates the most likely result. Hence, they make more sense as an expected value.
6) I re-did the calculations, accounting for the more accurate information. "8" is the number of deaths by scatter laser. "22" is the number of deaths by shield. "6" is the number of deaths by shuricannon.
I'm sorry if anything was convoluted or unclear, but please feel free to *ask*, rather than snarking, next time? Thanks
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/01 18:22:30
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
Well, unless you actually want to take objectives? !
What if you don't care about objectives? Plus I wasn't stating this list was great or even good, just that killing 60 Cultists in the first turn is tough and not a way to beat this list.
Unlikely. They can hit the far table edge turn one (as snap shooting is roughly equal to normal shooting due to tesla).
Far table edge really? 24" range max 12" move you deploy 24" forward and the table is 72" across that leaves you 12" short. You see if you actually played the game you'd know there is more than one deployment type. Which was the point I was making about range being an issue.
1) yes I assumed everything is in 5+ area terrain. It could be better or worse I also assumed everything was in LoS. I was just giving an example and the cover is largely irrelevant.
2) Good catch my mistake. That is only 8 extra shots and not going to make or break anything.
3) which would be snapfiring and not ignoring cover...
4) My maths was based on a 6+ save
5) since it is all bell curves mean and mode will be the same.
6) You've not taken into account snapfiring from the cannons so they contribute 1.5 kills not 6 and you're still assuming LoS to everything.
So what if scoring is all gone. STW and Linebreaker would be enough to win still. As I say I don't think the list is strong but for the actual reasons like the poor damage put on the Drakes and the inability to deal with 2+ saves and Deathstars. With more FMCs and less Drakes the list would be better.
Well, unless you actually want to take objectives? !
What if you don't care about objectives? Plus I wasn't stating this list was great or even good, just that killing 60 Cultists in the first turn is tough and not a way to beat this list.
Well it *is* a way to beat this list... Given that it guarantees you first blood... so all you have to do is get STW and they can't win.
Unlikely. They can hit the far table edge turn one (as snap shooting is roughly equal to normal shooting due to tesla).
Far table edge really? 24" range max 12" move you deploy 24" forward and the table is 72" across that leaves you 12" short. You see if you actually played the game you'd know there is more than one deployment type. Which was the point I was making about range being an issue.
Yes, range will be an issue against some of the cultists, in 1/3 games. Fair enough.
1) yes I assumed everything is in 5+ area terrain. It could be better or worse I also assumed everything was in LoS. I was just giving an example and the cover is largely irrelevant.
2) Good catch my mistake. That is only 8 extra shots and not going to make or break anything.
3) which would be snapfiring and not ignoring cover...
4) My maths was based on a 6+ save
5) since it is all bell curves mean and mode will be the same.
6) You've not taken into account snapfiring from the cannons so they contribute 1.5 kills not 6 and you're still assuming LoS to everything.
So what if scoring is all gone. STW and Linebreaker would be enough to win still. As I say I don't think the list is strong but for the actual reasons like the poor damage put on the Drakes and the inability to deal with 2+ saves and Deathstars. With more FMCs and less Drakes the list would be better.
1) More likely to be worse (for the CSM) than better.
2) Well it added a few kills.
3) Assuming it has to move, yes. But it's still better than nothing.
4) Fair enough, my mistake was based on your references to "guardsmen". But that's largely irrelevant 5) Except that the mean gives pointless and misleading decimals, so the mode provides more tangible and useful results.
6) Well not all of them will snapfire. But ok. And I don't need to have LOS to all of your units with all of mine: just enough to ensure the 31 kills each turn are actually killing things. Which isn't hard at all.
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
Well, unless you actually want to take objectives? !
What if you don't care about objectives? Plus I wasn't stating this list was great or even good, just that killing 60 Cultists in the first turn is tough and not a way to beat this list.
Unlikely. They can hit the far table edge turn one (as snap shooting is roughly equal to normal shooting due to tesla).
Far table edge really? 24" range max 12" move you deploy 24" forward and the table is 72" across that leaves you 12" short. You see if you actually played the game you'd know there is more than one deployment type. Which was the point I was making about range being an issue.
1) yes I assumed everything is in 5+ area terrain. It could be better or worse I also assumed everything was in LoS. I was just giving an example and the cover is largely irrelevant.
2) Good catch my mistake. That is only 8 extra shots and not going to make or break anything.
3) which would be snapfiring and not ignoring cover...
4) My maths was based on a 6+ save
5) since it is all bell curves mean and mode will be the same.
6) You've not taken into account snapfiring from the cannons so they contribute 1.5 kills not 6 and you're still assuming LoS to everything.
So what if scoring is all gone. STW and Linebreaker would be enough to win still. As I say I don't think the list is strong but for the actual reasons like the poor damage put on the Drakes and the inability to deal with 2+ saves and Deathstars. With more FMCs and less Drakes the list would be better.
Splinter cannons are 36" range... on hammer and anvil, deploy 24" move 12" shoot 36", 24+12+36 = 72. So yea, table range.
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010
Well it *is* a way to beat this list... Given that it guarantees you first blood... so all you have to do is get STW and they can't win.
Well they can still win but I wouldn't send the Serpents hunting the Cultists. You're not trying to win by tabling the Cultists before the reserves arrive as was proposed as an easy solution. You want to hang back with the Serpents and pick your targets. Take down the FMCs as the list is jo longer much of a threat to you.
Yes, range will be an issue against some of the cultists, in 1/3 games. Fair enough.
2/3 deployment types can lead to the Annihilation barges being out of range. Whilst snap shooting with them doesn't lose you a huge amount of mean hits it does massively increase your standard deviation and makes the whole thing much more swingy and less predictable.
1) When you take into account night fighting, blocked LoS etc I'd argue it is more likely to be better for the CSM player. But you can mathammer an entire game in advance as there are just too many variables.
2) Yes it will add a few kills
3) Yes better than nothing but no it will not lead to tabling 60 Cultists before the reserves arrive as was proposed.
4) fair enough I could have been clearer
5) I don't think the decimals are misleading at all
6) So you seem to have conceded that you won't be tabling the cultists before the reserves arrive as was initially stated and it was that statement I was disagreeing with.
6) So you seem to have conceded that you won't be tabling the cultists before the reserves arrive as was initially stated and it was that statement I was disagreeing with.
No. I am saying that you will be able to kill the cultists in two turns, which will be before the reserves arrive 50% of the time. Even first turn does not happen, it must be seen that 30+ cultists will be dead, and more will be fleeing - crippling the scoring capabilities of the army.
Edit: failquotes
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/01 19:48:13
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
How will killing a possible 30 cultists cripple scoring capabilities, in addition to any reserves that came in?
Ps: Was not my intention to be "snide" or toxic, when you quoted 5 saying different averages are better then others this didn't make sense as the averages come out the same, Also I think you were trying to say "mode" or modality but it came out as modals which is different. Lastly don't forget cultists LD of 7 or 8 on their leaders so the average dice roll being "7" means you shouldn't be fleeing.
11k+
4k
7k
3k 
1,000 points, now painting. 
). Ill give an example that 
)
6000 pts 
Farseer Faenyin 
7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc) 
