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Jihadin wrote: Well..Harry Reid said something close about "lack of education" being one problem.
is it the lack of education, or it's dismal quality? Or the declining standards of measurement? There is no incentive for a child to learn to read if he knows he's just going to be graduated to the next class irrespective of what he does. When your success is measured by your ability to have your entitlements fulfilled by being a whiny nuisance, that's not really going to achieve a healthy economy. I mean, really, I can relate the stories of many people around me who just lack the initiative, pride or sense of dedication toward their work, but i'm sure you get the point. It's not as simple as pushing more teachers into the system and finding more classroom space, it's about building a curriculum, and accepting the fact that you will inevitably have to leave some kids behind. It's not fair to drag everyone back for the sake of the few, which is what I'm deeply suspicious is happening here.
I recognize you may share this view given the quotation marks, so this is more a remark about your remark than a response to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/01 08:19:28
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
poda_t wrote: is it the lack of education, or it's dismal quality? Or the declining standards of measurement? There is no incentive for a child to learn to read if he knows he's just going to be graduated to the next class irrespective of what he does. When your success is measured by your ability to have your entitlements fulfilled by being a whiny nuisance, that's not really going to achieve a healthy economy. I mean, really, I can relate the stories of many people around me who just lack the initiative, pride or sense of dedication toward their work, but i'm sure you get the point. It's not as simple as pushing more teachers into the system and finding more classroom space, it's about building a curriculum, and accepting the fact that you will inevitably have to leave some kids behind. It's not fair to drag everyone back for the sake of the few, which is what I'm deeply suspicious is happening here.
I recognize you may share this view given the quotation marks, so this is more a remark about your remark than a response to it.
It's none of that. Education isn't the problem. What skill shortages exist they are typically in jobs where high level proficiency is gained on the job, not the classroom (welders, machinists, boiler makers etc), and those shortages are of a few percent of the total demanded, nothing to represent any kind of real drag on industry. There simply isn't a problem out there of people saying 'oh I'd start my business in the US and employ lots of Americans, if only they had skilled people for me to employ'.
The system you have isn't perfect, but it's far from as terrible as it is so often made out to be, and historically speaking a hell of a lot better than what's come before. Talk about more teachers and leaving kids behind is just rhetoric that is looking to solve a problem that isn't there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/01 08:58:34
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
You miss the point. How are you going to develop job proficiency if you approach your workplace the same way that you approached school? I can point you at my friends again, who did the bare minimum to scrape through highschool, and have a transient job history. They expect pay raises for doing the bare minimum and get pissy and flake off when they don't get it. They haven't developed any skills. What incentive do you have to develop the ability to learn skills when you just get passed through anyway? Education is more than booksmarts, it's learning how to apply yourself. You're not going to get job based experience if you can't show dedication and a self-entitled attitude gets your ass fired.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
I'm tracking along with you Poda. I am also at the point now that the Teacher unions, let me clarify further, those who are in leadership positions in the Unions. Are fighting for a bigger paycheck then for a better education.
Why are Charter schools are "evil" I'm a parent. I want to provide the best education for my kid. Public school system today is not the same when "we" went through it. If the Charter School has a better education program then I pay for benefit for my kid. IE NYC Mayor stance on charter school for the Teacher Unions
All honestly what Bill Maher did to expose the "double standards". He's good in my book.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Co'tor Shas wrote: It also stems from the idea that people don't like their taxes going to a private company.
I used to think that way until I considered all the other private companies taxes go to.
wait till you see the construction companies it goes to--I'm not even $%$@#^ kidding. The gak that was done in our backyard easily ended up costing my city an extra $20K. Sum up all of the gak in the entire community, it works out to ~$200K extra on the bill. I also know that by the time everythings said and done it'l be another $500k over the budget to repair the damage that was done to repair damage caused during construction in the area, and that's just a single neighbourhood in the community. Counting everything up over the entire hill, it probably breaches $1 million in fraudulent expenses arising from intentional damage or extra work that the city has to pay for.
anyway, I have a problem with charter schools and private academies. They pretend their graduates do really well, but then the curriculum is at or below par, and then ramp up the difficulty in the last year or two. Those who can't compete are pushed harder until they can't complete anymore, and then the ones that don't live up to standards are dropped from the system, and they're not even recorded as a statistic in how well the school does. Just the ones that actually graduate are counted. There were a few pissing matches around here. The education wasn't that much better, it was just pretentious snobs feeding on eachothers gourmet excrement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/02 00:54:19
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
That's one creative article. I posted something similar about college courses recently on here. .
Hhhmm
Home School
Charter School
Private School
A "Academy" of some sort...
Who deciding what's the best education for kids because apparently some education courses are out of context, out dated, or lacking in some sort.
Are we really becoming a nation of Liberal Arts degree?....
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Jihadin wrote: That's one creative article. I posted something similar about college courses recently on here. .
Hhhmm
Home School
Charter School
Private School
A "Academy" of some sort...
Who deciding what's the best education for kids because apparently some education courses are out of context, out dated, or lacking in some sort.
Are we really becoming a nation of Liberal Arts degree?....
what do you mean 'becoming'?
I know this is a strange idea, the damn crazies in backwards eastern communistia (Stupid damn europeans, what the hell do they know about anything?) have their school system set up so kids are already doing newtonian physics by grade 6. Kids pick their trade schools in grade 9, and then grades 10-12 they're already training toward their trade. When they come out they're trained to fill a role in a specific field.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
I'm not willing to accept defeat.... I have hope for this Nation...which is no way impeding my preparation for the coming end.....though since you guys up north have the strategic maple syrup reserve up there..I need to come up with a barter item that's a no turn down....
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
There's no point to miss. "People are lazy and don't apply themselves" is the same complaint you'll hear throughout history. And for a lot of people it's true. But to argue that it is somehow the cause of problems, when it's been there all along, well that just isn't a thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
poda_t wrote: anyway, I have a problem with charter schools and private academies. They pretend their graduates do really well, but then the curriculum is at or below par, and then ramp up the difficulty in the last year or two. Those who can't compete are pushed harder until they can't complete anymore, and then the ones that don't live up to standards are dropped from the system, and they're not even recorded as a statistic in how well the school does. Just the ones that actually graduate are counted. There were a few pissing matches around here. The education wasn't that much better, it was just pretentious snobs feeding on eachothers gourmet excrement.
Yep, there's no magic fix. There certainly isn't a magic, easy fix that neatly lines up with any kind of political philosophy. Any time you see some particular kind of education achieving incredible results, then the only question is exactly how they're gaming the system to get those results.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/02 02:32:00
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
There's no point to miss. "People are lazy and don't apply themselves" is the same complaint you'll hear throughout history. And for a lot of people it's true. But to argue that it is somehow the cause of problems, when it's been there all along, well that just isn't a thing.
There is an order of difference between lazy people falling through the cracks, and skewing an entire system so the minimum standard of success is set by those that should be falling through the cracks. I know there are lazy people, but that shouldn't mean we should accommodate the lazy by making that the standard.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
Surfer Dude...prime example..turned down a five figure (80K) dollar oppurtunity that Hannity offered him on live TV.
I never had an urge to choke anyone till I saw this
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
poda_t wrote: There is an order of difference between lazy people falling through the cracks, and skewing an entire system so the minimum standard of success is set by those that should be falling through the cracks. I know there are lazy people, but that shouldn't mean we should accommodate the lazy by making that the standard.
Yeah, I'm not even sure what that is, or means as an argument.
Jihadin wrote: Surfer Dude...prime example..turned down a five figure (80K) dollar oppurtunity that Hannity offered him on live TV.
Yeah, some guy picked out of a country of 300 million because he's a lazy jerk gets shown as such on tv... that's a sensible source of information gathering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/02 05:25:26
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Jihadin wrote: Surfer Dude...prime example..turned down a five figure (80K) dollar oppurtunity that Hannity offered him on live TV.
Yeah, some guy picked out of a country of 300 million because he's a lazy jerk gets shown as such on tv... that's a sensible source of information gathering.
Jihadin wrote: Surfer Dude...prime example..turned down a five figure (80K) dollar oppurtunity that Hannity offered him on live TV.
Yeah, some guy picked out of a country of 300 million because he's a lazy jerk gets shown as such on tv... that's a sensible source of information gathering.
There's 300 million american on foodstamps?
I keep reading what Sebster wrote yet I can't find the word 'food stamps' in that sentence anywhere. The point being that 1:313,000,000 isn't much of an example of anything, other than that specific person.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
It's difficult to dissagree with much of what hannity is saying but stacking the deck doesn't prove anything as sebster has pointed out. It wouldn't be as entertaining if it was a single mother with a baby on her breast.
I think what I hate most about that clip with hannity is the line: "what if I got you a job".
Maybe hannity can do an 8 hour segment monday to friday where he brings on perceived "takers", gives them a public dressing down and the talk their father's should have had with them fallowed by a set of boot straps and the promies he'll make ae few phone calls on their behalf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/02 05:55:52
Jihadin wrote: Surfer Dude...prime example..turned down a five figure (80K) dollar oppurtunity that Hannity offered him on live TV.
Yeah, some guy picked out of a country of 300 million because he's a lazy jerk gets shown as such on tv... that's a sensible source of information gathering.
There's 300 million american on foodstamps?
I keep reading what Sebster wrote yet I can't find the word 'food stamps' in that sentence anywhere. The point being that 1:313,000,000 isn't much of an example of anything, other than that specific person.
True... but, it counters the common meme that people often push that fraud doesn't exist.
whembly wrote: True... but, it counters the common meme that people often push that fraud doesn't exist.
If people were saying 'there is not one single case of fraud or gross laziness' then that one guy would be a counter to that. But I don't think anyone is saying there is not one single instance of fraud or gross laziness in the system.
I think people are saying that the amount of fraud or gross laziness is wildly overstated... and finding this one lazy dude is not a counter to that. Find me a million guys like him, each scamming the system for a million each, and then you'll have a drain on the population equal to what High Frequency Trading has done.
Anything else is just a convenient political distraction.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
whembly wrote: True... but, it counters the common meme that people often push that fraud doesn't exist.
No one says it doesn't exist, they say it isn't as rampant like some like to pretend to get ratings/votes.
I once asked a women why she has so many young kids, she said "The government gives me money to have kids" And I was in shock, fraud and laziness exist, but not to the extent people think it does.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
There we go