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Are troops in formations able to hold objectives even though they dont take up FoC slots?

Unknown at this time. Strict RAW, no. That said, I don't know of anyone who plays it that way.

I agree that everyone I know of/heard of allows them to score.... however, I think that is supported by RAW also.

If it's relevant, GW Digital confirmed that troops were scoring. On their disappeared facebook page.

In the Vanguard dataslate, it specifically states that "a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3) and for formations, "the Levels of Alliance Rules do apply to them." (p4) It further states that, "the battlefield role... can be found in the dataslate." If their battlefield role is described as troops - then they are troops.

The argument that , even though they are troops they don't score, as they're "not included in the FOC" is invalid, as the dataslate defines this Formation as a sub-set of Allied Detachments (p3), and Allied Detachments are quite clearly seen on the FOC (BRB p109).

Overall, troops in formation count as scoring, as long as they're listed as troops and satisfy the Levels of Alliance criteria.

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@Hivefleet: it's not relevant to YMDC. See tenant #2.

HIWPI: troops is troops. I don't care how you got them.

clively wrote:

HIWPI: troops is troops. I don't care how you got them.

Troops ain't just troops. How you got them is entirely relevant - the levels of alliance dictate whether troops are scoring, BRB, p108 IIRC, Vanguard dataslate p4.

You take formations as a detachment, detachments are part of the force org chart.

Formations do not follow the ally matrix.

Allied formations follow the ally matrix.

Nid formations are considered part of the Nid codex. (same for any race)

units in formations have the same "battlefield role" as the same unit in the codex.

Actually they do follow the ally matrix with the exception of their parent codex.

Which is exactly what I said.... The general rule for Formations does not mention anything about the ally matrix. The rules for Allied Formations talks about the ally matrix.

If anyone cares I'll point out that it is not 'occupying a troop slot' on the FOC that makes it scouring. Its if it 'comes from the troops slot' on the FOC and even that is only stated as the normal way of getting scouring units. The main exceptions being Big Guns never Tire and The Scouring missions according to the BRB.

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart" -Page 123, BRB, Scouring Units

To purchase units for a formation you must purchase them through the codex and the only way to purchase units from a codex is through the FOC. So you purchase them the regular way (troop section of the FOC) and them place them in the formation where they do not occupy any slots. To me that satisfies the requirement 'units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart' as that is still their origin. It can be seen other ways though and that is just my take on it.

As noted already, it is generally played as they score.

I don't think they should be scoring at all. The units are not in a troops slot and never were.
Anything in a troops slot is scoring unless otherwise stated, if something isn't in a troop slot where is the permission to be scoring? A formation is a specific arrangement of units outside the standard foc,. The rules show that you need permission for birthed gaunts to score, that makes it clear to me.

liturgies, just out of curiosity. How do you play it? Scoring or not? I understand what you think, but am curious as to how you play. I might have to change my original post...nah, I don't actually know you so my statement will still be correct.

I will hope the tournament I am at this day week sides with my view. If not I will play as per the to's rules.

I play as I said. Only come up once so far and we were of the same opinion. I won't quit a game because of it but it's how I read and see it.

Well, they are very clearly troops, says so right in the formation.

They sure seem to be part of your FOC, though a part added in.

The rules specificallly state they have the 'same battlefield role', and the role of troops is controlling objectives.


Not sure how to rule it any other way.

coredump wrote:
Well, they are very clearly troops, says so right in the formation.

They sure seem to be part of your FOC, though a part added in.

The rules specificallly state they have the 'same battlefield role', and the role of troops is controlling objectives.


Not sure how to rule it any other way.

That doesn't say it's scoring. The faction rules say

A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of Detachment.

A special form of detachment is not a normal FOC entry so again where does it say that the units that would normally be in a troops slot are either in a troops slot or are scoring.
If being a troops choice's role is controling objectives, what are Death company and all those troops that cannot score? The role of a troop isn't to be scoring it's to do what that unit does, snipers shoot, assault marines fight, chaos chosen do what they are kitted out to do etc etc.

The "battlefield role" of Death Company does not include controlling objectives, so formation ones don't do that.

The "battlefield role" of tac marines *does* include controlling objectives, so formation ones *do* that.

How is it that you are claiming that controlling objectives is *not* one of 'battlefield roles' of a tac marine squad?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me ask you another question...

If playing at 2K with Double Force Org.... will the troops from the second primary detachment score? Why?

Why is the second primary detachment part of the FOC, but the formation detachment is not?

Why do you insist that the FOC does not include all detachments in the army? Since that is what a Force Organization Chart would encompass... a Chart of how all of your forces are Organized...

In 2k the troops will score because they are in a troops slot...
that's what makes them scoring. The elites that swap into troop slots depending on the HQ choices also are scoring because they are in troop slots. The formation doesn't have a FOC, it's just a collection of units.

If you'd like to stop putting words in my mouth I'd be grateful.

I'm saying battlefield roll is fluff or just not defined because the FOC doesn't define a unit's roll, it talks about what slot it takes, it's options and points cost.

So to explain it clearly. There is a primary detachment consisting of troops, HQ, etc etc, an allied detachment consisting of that foc, formations and units like Cypher and then once you hit 2k points a new set of primary and secondary. Nowhere in that does it show that formations are another FOC, once you've got your 6 troops and you are still under 2k you don't get new troop slots unless you have some allies. It's not fair to some armies but that is opinion rather than fact.

Yet they are listed as"Troops" in the formation. So you're saying they are not troops?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet they are listed as"Troops" in the formation. So you're saying they are not troops?

They are Troops. They are not however, a Troops selection of the Force Organistion Chart.

Nos, where does it say that they are troops in the formation? I am not seeing that anywhere, which version and which dataslate are you looking at where it says that?

What I see is "Formation:" followed by a list of unit names and numbers not 2 troops and a HQ. In fact a unit isn't "troops" unless it takes up that slot, similarly an elite is no longer an elite when it is in a troops slot.

Flip a few pages and you'll find an entry lablled "Genestealers" with TROOPS in great big letters right at the top of the page.

Ok, so how many troop slots are in a formation FOC then? How many FA choices? You have yet to show anything that makes something that isn't in a troops choice slot on the FOC troops nor have you shown that a formation has a FOC. It is not being listed in the troops section of a codex that makes a unit a troops choice, it is where it is listed on a FOC.

The end of the dataslates are just lifts from other sources as far as I can see and are not in the part that tells you what the formation consists of and have yet to state that the units in the formation occupy slots. From how I see it a formation is just a way to get extra copies of units into an army and the points cost is the same plus a few extra rules. You are paying for the formation to circumvent the FOC limits not to get 18 scoring units but to get 6 scoring units and some more units that would normally be troops as they are good at some role in your army list.

 Happyjew wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet they are listed as"Troops" in the formation. So you're saying they are not troops?

They are Troops. They are not however, a Troops selection of the Force Organistion Chart.

Then what Troops are they?

Anything labeled Heavy, Fast Attack, Troops etc.. is part of the FOC.

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet they are listed as"Troops" in the formation. So you're saying they are not troops?

They are Troops. They are not however, a Troops selection of the Force Organistion Chart.

Then what Troops are they?

Anything labeled Heavy, Fast Attack, Troops etc.. is part of the FOC.

Can you cite the FOC for dataslates?
We know it's not the normal one.

Can you show me where those classifications are defined outside the FOC ?

We don't have to show jack, the formation says that it's in addition to the detachments and says what the formation consists of.

You are the one claiming units that would normally occupy a troops slot are always scoring because troops are troops are troops.

Fragile wrote:
Can you show me where those classifications are defined outside the FOC ?

They aren't. Which means you cannot argue that something that is explicitly outside the FOC benefits from being part of the FOC.

A Genestealer is a Troops by default as it is in the Troops section of the FOC. Being in a formation does not change that.

That Formation states is consists of X, Y, Z. You then refer back to the FOC chart to see what those X,Y,Z are.

ou are the one claiming units that would normally occupy a troops slot are always scoring because troops are troops are troops.

Yes because Troops are Troops. Your the one claiming they are not. Find where the stats of your Formation come from if they are not Troops.

Fragile wrote:
A Genestealer is a Troops by default as it is in the Troops section of the FOC. Being in a formation does not change that.

Except it does. We know that the FOC slot used matters - Paladins score when Draigo is around, same with Nobs and a Warboss, etc.
So when there's no FOC slot used, you're saying the FOC still matters...

That Formation states is consists of X, Y, Z. You then refer back to the FOC chart to see what those X,Y,Z are.

No - false.
I refer to the Army List section to see what they are. Just like I do for Paladins. Those are in the Elite section - do they score with Draigo in the army?

Yes because Troops are Troops. Your the one claiming they are not. Find where the stats of your Formation come from if they are not Troops.

You made up the underlined statement. Find rules support for it.
The stats are in the Army List section - which has literally nothing to do with the FOC.