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Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

That's what the rulebook is for, silly.

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 sebster wrote:
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Perth

and not neccasarily GW in writing the formation SELECTED those models as troop, you dont need to make the choice. where does it say you personally need to select them?

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 ausYenLoWang wrote:
So if digital codex's do no longer include the written FOC when telling me to make these selections, but just uses sections to define what each model is. which strangely sets a precedent for how the Formations will be written. no chart putting models into boxes just told that THIS is a troop, THESE are HQ..

... and the BRB has the chart and tells you how to build an army.
Or does your codex tell you how to build an army? Mine doesn't.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

Old ones used to include the chart. Not that it was any different than the one in the rulebook, it was just for clarification.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 ausYenLoWang wrote:
and not neccasarily GW in writing the formation SELECTED those models as troop, you dont need to make the choice. where does it say you personally need to select them?

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.


Right there. Almost like I quoted that rule already. Almost.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in au
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Perth

rigeld2 wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
So if digital codex's do no longer include the written FOC when telling me to make these selections, but just uses sections to define what each model is. which strangely sets a precedent for how the Formations will be written. no chart putting models into boxes just told that THIS is a troop, THESE are HQ..

... and the BRB has the chart and tells you how to build an army.
Or does your codex tell you how to build an army? Mine doesn't.


which DOESNT include formations. so how can you select a formation?

the way the digital items are written goes back to the codex's which dont use a chart, they tell you that model x is a troop.

GW selects the models in the formation, you select the formation, where is it stated that the PLAYER must select a model to go into those slots is the only way to get troops?

CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts


 
   
Made in us
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Catskills in NYS

Is a troops choice. A bit different, as in, I can take crisis suits a troops with FE, those taken as troops are not elites.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 ausYenLoWang wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
So if digital codex's do no longer include the written FOC when telling me to make these selections, but just uses sections to define what each model is. which strangely sets a precedent for how the Formations will be written. no chart putting models into boxes just told that THIS is a troop, THESE are HQ..

... and the BRB has the chart and tells you how to build an army.
Or does your codex tell you how to build an army? Mine doesn't.


which DOESNT include formations. so how can you select a formation?

The Formation tells you. Does the Formation say that it contains troop selections?

the way the digital items are written goes back to the codex's which dont use a chart, they tell you that model x is a troop.

Exactly. And the BRB tells you that units you select from those troops are troop selections (and fill boxes on the FOC). No boxes? Not a selection. You didn't select? Not a selection. Not a selection? Not scoring.

GW selects the models in the formation, you select the formation, where is it stated that the PLAYER must select a model to go into those slots is the only way to get troops?

I quoted and underlined it. Unless somehow you think "GW" and "you" are synonymous...

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Made in au
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Perth

rigeld2 wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
and not neccasarily GW in writing the formation SELECTED those models as troop, you dont need to make the choice. where does it say you personally need to select them?

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.


Right there. Almost like I quoted that rule already. Almost.


and where was it in the rule book that YOU MUST be the only one to make that selection? what if its predetermined? and the selection of the formation is the selection you need to make to select them as troops? because your Selecting them.

ok so we are at the point that there must be a box for a selection? show me the box that allows formations? or LOW? neither is in the BRB? your just told they exist right, and in the formation it labels them as troops does it not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Old ones used to include the chart. Not that it was any different than the one in the rulebook, it was just for clarification.


and the rulebook now would need more boxes in it for further clarifaction? as none of the new releases are in there?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 16:45:21


CSM 20,000 Pts
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WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts


 
   
Made in us
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 ausYenLoWang wrote:
and where was it in the rule book that YOU MUST be the only one to make that selection? what if its predetermined? and the selection of the formation is the selection you need to make to select them as troops? because your Selecting them.

I'm not sure how you're misreading the word "you" to mean something other than ... well... you.
If it's predetermined then you didn't select that unit.
Selecting a Formation is not the same as selecting a unit. A Formation is another detachment (read the Formation rules in the dataslate, or earlier in the thread where they're quoted). Selecting a Formation is analogous to selecting an ally.

ok so we are at the point that there must be a box for a selection? show me the box that allows formations? or LOW? neither is in the BRB? your just told they exist right, and in the formation it labels them as troops does it not?

No - there's no box on the FOC that allows Formations. Read the Formation rules in the dataslate.
Escalation specifically modifies the FOC.
The Formation does no such thing. It doesn't have boxes to fill with a selection, it just is a detachment you can opt to take.

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Made in au
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Perth

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Is a troops choice. A bit different, as in, I can take crisis suits a troops with FE, those taken as troops are not elites.


and choice (to be chosen) being another way of saying selection?

CSM 20,000 Pts
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WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts


 
   
Made in us
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Catskills in NYS

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Is a troops choice. A bit different, as in, I can take crisis suits a troops with FE, those taken as troops are not elites.


and choice (to be chosen) being another way of saying selection?

Not really. It mean you can take them as a choice in the FOC the classification just being which slot you can put them in. A troop is something taken in the troops slot. This just pure RAW, so I don't expect anyone to play this way though.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord






 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Is a troops choice. A bit different, as in, I can take crisis suits a troops with FE, those taken as troops are not elites.


and choice (to be chosen) being another way of saying selection?

Not really. It mean you can take them as a choice in the FOC the classification just being which slot you can put them in. A troop is something taken in the troops slot. This just pure RAW, so I don't expect anyone to play this way though.


Plausible. Meanwhile, the dataslates also state that units in formation perform exactly as those in the main codex, ie "chosen" from the troops selection including battlefield role.

   
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No, I'm not being flippant at all.
It was a serious question in response to your statement. Because strict RAW, those units can't shoot.


Your statement was flippant. You brought that strawman into the argument to discredit me thus discrediting my thoughts. You knew exactly what I meant reading "Strict RAW".

Selecting a Formation is not the same as selecting a unit. A Formation is another detachment (read the Formation rules in the dataslate, or earlier in the thread where they're quoted). Selecting a Formation is analogous to selecting an ally.


...And what does a Detachment consists of? A predetermined selection of units that have a defined role.



   
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Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:Plausible. Meanwhile, the dataslates also state that units in formation perform exactly as those in the main codex, ie "chosen" from the troops selection including battlefield role.

Citation needed for the underlined. You keep saying that but refuse to cite rules supporting it. The rules you've quoted say literally nothing about the FOC or selections.

thejughead wrote:
No, I'm not being flippant at all.
It was a serious question in response to your statement. Because strict RAW, those units can't shoot.


Your statement was flippant. You brought that strawman into the argument to discredit me thus discrediting my thoughts. You knew exactly what I meant reading "Strict RAW".

No, I didn't. That's why I asked the question. You know - attempting to get information - the reason behind any question?
Again - you're reading too much inflection. Which is interesting as you're the one accusing me of that earlier.

Selecting a Formation is not the same as selecting a unit. A Formation is another detachment (read the Formation rules in the dataslate, or earlier in the thread where they're quoted). Selecting a Formation is analogous to selecting an ally.


...And what does a Detachment consists of? A predetermined selection of units that have a defined role.

Really? Can you show me that definition? I'd love to see it.
An Allied detachment is not a predetermined selection of units. Neither is a Lord of War detachment or a Fortification detachment. Nor a Primary detachment.

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it should read "...a formation detachment..."

Again, you have no tone in your post, but why bring up a strawman like that without a purpose.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 thejughead wrote:
it should read "...a formation detachment..."

And a predetermined selection is not filling FOC boxes (selections) with Troops, and therefore...
And I'd love to see a rules quote saying a Formation detachment is a predetermined selection of units.

Again, you have no tone in your post, but why bring up a strawman like that without a purpose.

Because I asked a question? And it's not a strawman - I didn't say you were arguing that, I simply asked a question based on your statement of "strict RAW".

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Made in us
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Again you knew exactly what I meant by "Strict RAW".

The rule which you keep referring to and as everyone else has alluded to uses the word "Normally". You fault GW for not being airtight, but they had the foresight to include that word so its customers could enjoy bringing an army that includes all detachments with its specified roles. A troop is a troop unless it specifically says it cannot score.
   
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 thejughead wrote:
Again you knew exactly what I meant by "Strict RAW".

No, I didn't. And still don't. Hence the question.

The rule which you keep referring to and as everyone else has alluded to uses the word "Normally". You fault GW for not being airtight, but they had the foresight to include that word so its customers could enjoy bringing an army that includes all detachments with its specified roles. A troop is a troop unless it specifically says it cannot score.

A troop selection is a troop selection is a scoring unit.
Units that aren't troop selections need a rule to allow them to score. That's the actual, strict RAW.

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A troop selection is a troop selection is a scoring unit.
Units that aren't troop selections need a rule to allow them to score. That's the actual, strict RAW.


Nope, that's just your interpretation of it.
   
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 thejughead wrote:
A troop selection is a troop selection is a scoring unit.
Units that aren't troop selections need a rule to allow them to score. That's the actual, strict RAW.


Nope, that's just your interpretation of it.

Really? Did you miss the rule that I've quoted 3 times now?
Or do you want to talk about how Venomthropes are scoring units now?

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Or do you want to talk about how Venomthropes are scoring units now?


Again another Strawman.
   
Made in us
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 thejughead wrote:
Or do you want to talk about how Venomthropes are scoring units now?


Again another Strawman.

No it's not. I'll demonstrate.

Termagants in a Formation detachment are not troop selections. Your assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".
Venomthropes in a Primary detachment are not troop selections. My assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".

Your next response will be to ask for a rule allowing Venomthropes in a Primary detachment to score. But you refuse to provide me with one saying Termagants in a Formation detachment can score.

Do you truly not see the hypocrisy?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
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No it's not. I'll demonstrate.

Termagants in a Formation detachment are not troop selections. Your assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".
Venomthropes in a Primary detachment are not troop selections. My assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".

Your next response will be to ask for a rule allowing Venomthropes in a Primary detachment to score. But you refuse to provide me with one saying Termagants in a Formation detachment can score.

Do you truly not see the hypocrisy?


Please re-read the context in which they are using the word "normally". It pertains to the FOC and its selection. The dataslate tells you to use the unit entries and everything that comes with it from the codex, including it's placement in the FOC selection. There is no need to debate anymore. We know and now understand your reasoning and disagree with you.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 thejughead wrote:
No it's not. I'll demonstrate.

Termagants in a Formation detachment are not troop selections. Your assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".
Venomthropes in a Primary detachment are not troop selections. My assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".

Your next response will be to ask for a rule allowing Venomthropes in a Primary detachment to score. But you refuse to provide me with one saying Termagants in a Formation detachment can score.

Do you truly not see the hypocrisy?


Please re-read the context in which they are using the word "normally". It pertains to the FOC and its selection. The dataslate tells you to use the unit entries and everything that comes with it from the codex, including it's placement in the FOC selection. There is no need to debate anymore. We know and now understand your reasoning and disagree with you.

Actually - it doesn't say the underlined.
And yes - if you can't recognize your hypocrisy there's no need to debate. Next time, please back up your statements with actual rules instead of assumptions.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
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And yes - if you can't recognize your hypocrisy there's no need to debate. Next time, please back up your statements with actual rules instead of assumptions.


You continue to break the tenets of Dakka decorum. Calling people liars and hypocrite breaks discourse. Next time a little civility and understanding on your part could go a long way.
   
Made in us
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 thejughead wrote:
And yes - if you can't recognize your hypocrisy there's no need to debate. Next time, please back up your statements with actual rules instead of assumptions.


You continue to break the tenets of Dakka decorum. Calling people liars and hypocrite breaks discourse. Next time a little civility and understanding on your part could go a long way.

Well, when people literally lie and are hypocrits (and I've proven such) I will state such.
If you feel I've gone beyond where I should please click the triangle of happiness.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
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rigeld2 wrote:
 thejughead wrote:
And yes - if you can't recognize your hypocrisy there's no need to debate. Next time, please back up your statements with actual rules instead of assumptions.


You continue to break the tenets of Dakka decorum. Calling people liars and hypocrite breaks discourse. Next time a little civility and understanding on your part could go a long way.

Well, when people literally lie and are hypocrits (and I've proven such) I will state such.
If you feel I've gone beyond where I should please click the triangle of happiness.


The only thing you have proven here is that you lack any civil restraint when debating or having a discussion.
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord






rigeld2 wrote:


Termagants in a Formation detachment are not troop selections. Your assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".
Venomthropes in a Primary detachment are not troop selections. My assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".


Do you truly not see the hypocrisy?


Really, what a silly argument.

Venomthropes aren't listed as troops with the proviso that they perform the same battlefield role as troops in the main codes. Perform the same role.

Instead of repeating the same silly comparisons, quote a rule that explains how perform the same battlefield role doesn't mean performs the same battlefield role.

rigeld2 wrote:

Well, when people literally lie and are hypocrits (and I've proven such) I will state such.


Stretching the rules to try to prove your point is one thing. But leave out the personal abuse, please, all it does is provide more evidence that a poster is losing the argument.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 19:36:02


   
Made in us
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 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Instead of repeating the same silly comparisons, quote a rule that explains how perform the same battlefield role doesn't mean performs the same battlefield role.

Please, prove to me that "performs the same battlefield role" equates to "troop selection". I've asked for that before and never been supplied with that reasoning.
And it'd be doubly great if you could define - using rules - what "battlefield role" is, considering those two words literally never appear in the BRB together.

rigeld2 wrote:
Well, when people literally lie and are hypocrits (and I've proven such) I will state such.


Stretching the rules to try prove you;re right is one thing. But leave out the personal abuse, please.

Stating facts != personal abuse.
Also, pot, kettle, etc.

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