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PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
The BRB shows the force organization chart for primary, allied and fortification detachments in diagram format. Each formation shows its respective FOC in table format (more specifically, a table with one column and multiple rows). Show a rule that says the FOC must be in diagram format.

There isn't one.
But the rule literally says "One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex. "
If you have no boxes on the chart you can make no selections (because you don't have allowance to).
If you're making no selections, you can't make troop selections. And since it's troop selections that score...

Except all that was written prior to formation detachments in the context of a specific diagram. The formation detachment has a defined force organization chart (in table, rather than diagram format) and defined compulsory and optional selections on a per detachment basis. You must take two compulsory troops selections in a primary detachment. You must take five compulsory troop selections in the formation that started this thread. To use either detachment without the required troops selections would be illegal. Just because GW changed how they formatted force organization charts between sources (i.e. diagram versus table) without updating the BRB doesn't mean we should ignore all available sources of RAW and context (time and language) when interpreting RAW.

Yeah, we should just make rules up when we think the ones that are written are incorrect.

You're arguing RAI - I underlined why I'm saying that. I'm arguing the words that are written. Thank you for admitting you have no RAW basis for your argument and that you're making assumptions.

Could you show something solid that we can gleam the correct context and intent from this?
That sounds like an admission that this is a RAI argument Panzer. Which is fine, sometimes the rules are not written right but you have shown no evidence that there are troop selections within the formation.

I personally doubt that GW will be abandoning the FOC as a diagram as it's been a solid part of the army structure since 3rd ed at least.It also makes it easy for children, their key market, to understand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conjured units can never score (page 68) reminds us of that fact and refers to page 123.
So we actually need permission for a unit to score despite their battlefield roll, where they are in the army list or anything else.

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
The BRB shows the force organization chart for primary, allied and fortification detachments in diagram format. Each formation shows its respective FOC in table format (more specifically, a table with one column and multiple rows). Show a rule that says the FOC must be in diagram format.

There isn't one.
But the rule literally says "One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex. "
If you have no boxes on the chart you can make no selections (because you don't have allowance to).
If you're making no selections, you can't make troop selections. And since it's troop selections that score...

Except all that was written prior to formation detachments in the context of a specific diagram. The formation detachment has a defined force organization chart (in table, rather than diagram format) and defined compulsory and optional selections on a per detachment basis. You must take two compulsory troops selections in a primary detachment. You must take five compulsory troop selections in the formation that started this thread. To use either detachment without the required troops selections would be illegal. Just because GW changed how they formatted force organization charts between sources (i.e. diagram versus table) without updating the BRB doesn't mean we should ignore all available sources of RAW and context (time and language) when interpreting RAW.

Yeah, we should just make rules up when we think the ones that are written are incorrect.

You're arguing RAI - I underlined why I'm saying that. I'm arguing the words that are written. Thank you for admitting you have no RAW basis for your argument and that you're making assumptions.

Just like you are making an assumption that the FOC must always be depicted as a diagram. I've shown that a "chart" can be a diagram, graph or table and I have shown how GW has used both a diagram and a table to depict the FOC using two different sources of RAW: the BRB (diagram) and the data sheets themselves (table). My argument has a very sound RAW basis. You are not willing to admit that your fundamental assumption is that chart must always equal diagram and that that logic is rooted solely in a single source of RAW.

Panzer it doesn't have to be depicted as a diagram but that's the only way the rules depict it. So without permission to be anything else it is a diagram. Please cite permission to be otherwise? Saying this formation contains 2 termagant and a tervigon unit doesn't mean 3 troops or 2 troops and a HQ without something saying that they are troops.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Panzer it doesn't have to be depicted as a diagram but that's the only way the rules depict it. So without permission to be anything else it is a diagram. Please cite permission to be otherwise? Saying this formation contains 2 termagant and a tervigon unit doesn't mean 3 troops or 2 troops and a HQ without something saying that they are troops.

The BRB uses the word "chart" and depicts it as a diagram. The formation data sheets use the word "chart" and then depict it as a table. Isn't the formation data sheet a source of RAW as well? It certainly looks like GW has depicted the FOC in two different ways in two sources of rules. Your second example is slightly misleading: the BRB FOC doesn't tell you what is or is not a troops choice-you must rely on the army list for that. The FOC merely limits the number of selections you may make from the army list for any given category.

Even if a list is used the list you've hung your argument on doesn't list those units as troops.

Now for the really imporant part, the FOC selections (slots or whatever you want to call them) of a formation are not mentioned once.
That it consists of the units is still not enough to state that they are a selection of a given type on the FOC other than being a formation consisting of those units.
I know it's really hard to understand this point (as we've gone 9 pages) but can you see how a detachment that has NO choices in it and consists of units that have no defined selection might be considered beyond what "normally" happens and why they might not be scoring?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
The debate has come down to whether Troops taken from a non-primary detachment are scoring correct? Or more specifically, only Troops taken as Troop selections from the primary detachment are scoring.

No.
Only troops that are troop selections, from any detachment, are scoring. I've never limited my argument to the primary detachment.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Or do you want to talk about how Venomthropes are scoring units now?

Again another Strawman.

No it's not. I'll demonstrate.

Termagants in a Formation detachment are not troop selections. Your assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".
Venomthropes in a Primary detachment are not troop selections. My assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".

Your next response will be to ask for a rule allowing Venomthropes in a Primary detachment to score. But you refuse to provide me with one saying Termagants in a Formation detachment can score.

Do you truly not see the hypocrisy?

But I believe you have. Emphasis mine.

rigeld2 wrote:

thejughead wrote:Abandon did but you have chosen not to address his post.

I have him on ignore so because, in another thread a while ago, he chose to insult me instead of honestly discuss things..

I feel his argument deserves a rebuttal, so feel free to address me.

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

To meet these qualifications a unit must be taken from the 'troops selection'. This does not mean they must currently exist there. Units in formations are purchased the same way as primary units are, from the FOC in the codex. There's no other way to purchase them. Then placing them in a formation does not change where they are from, it only makes them not take up a selection, it does not mean they are not from one.


Also the troops(plural) selection(singular) means it's referring to a singular or general selection with several troop options. This cannot refer to the specific troops occupying the FOC as that would have to be expressed as 'troop selections'. Given the words they use and the correct meaning given their order and tense it seems clear to me that it only matters in which part of the FOC they originate, not where they end up and that the 'troops selection' refers to a singular but wide category of possible troop selections available on the FOC as opposed to a single specific selection that would leave you with only one scoring unit.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Even if a list is used the list you've hung your argument on doesn't list those units as troops.

Now for the really imporant part, the FOC selections (slots or whatever you want to call them) of a formation are not mentioned once.
That it consists of the units is still not enough to state that they are a selection of a given type on the FOC other than being a formation consisting of those units.
I know it's really hard to understand this point (as we've gone 9 pages) but can you see how a detachment that has NO choices in it and consists of units that have no defined selection might be considered beyond what "normally" happens and why they might not be scoring?

Actually, it would appear that Formations DO allow choices. Let's take a look.
"All XV88 Broadside must have three models excluding drones."
It would appear that you can add more models to the Team, or you can choose to add more models.

You seem to be seeing unit choices where there are none. We are talking about which units and where they go, not what the units contain.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Even if a list is used the list you've hung your argument on doesn't list those units as troops.

Now for the really imporant part, the FOC selections (slots or whatever you want to call them) of a formation are not mentioned once.
That it consists of the units is still not enough to state that they are a selection of a given type on the FOC other than being a formation consisting of those units.
I know it's really hard to understand this point (as we've gone 9 pages) but can you see how a detachment that has NO choices in it and consists of units that have no defined selection might be considered beyond what "normally" happens and why they might not be scoring?

Just like its really hard for you to understand the counterpoint of "the formation does have choices in it-they are all compulsory."

How do you select troops in a primary detachment? You look in the army list section of the codex at all possible choices. You select one of them, equip as you like and annotate it on your army list. You have now filled your first compulsory selection. You repeat this cycle for the second troops choice and your compulsory HQ. Having now met the minimum requirements, you may continue to select units from the army list section constrained only by the cap on optional selections (0-1 HQ, 0-4 Troops, 0-3 Heavy, 0-3 Fast Attack, 0-3 Elites) and the points value agreed upon for the game.

How do you select troops in a formation detachment? You look at the formation's force organization chart (given to you in table format). Based on the table, you consult the army list and purchase the required units in the required quantities. Just like with a primary detachment, the army list tells you the initial categorization of every unit (HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast, Heavy). The only difference is that in a formation detachment, every selection is compulsory and you have no optional selections like you do with a primary and allied detachment.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You seem to be seeing unit choices where there are none. We are talking about which units and where they go, not what the units contain.

Ah, well then. Perhaps be a little more specific next time.
Apocaypse Formations have quite a few choices generally.
Carnival of Pain
Urien Rakarth or Ancient Haemonculus
0+ Haemonculus
0+ 3 Grotesque units
0+ Wrack units
3+ pain engines

As you can see, formations do occasionally have more than one unit option.

Eh, you know I never knew there was such a thing as a compulsory choice...
I know how FOCs work "normally" and the formation tells you it is a self contained detachment but not what slots if any are in there. You are wrong, you don't take units in this case you take a formation containing units completely different to all the other detachments.

You have just said that it is identical except its completely different.

So can you show that the contents list is a FOC as you say?

Ok so sometimes there are choices in Apoc formations. That is a different game so I don't care atm.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh, you know I never knew there was such a thing as a compulsory choice...
I know how FOCs work "normally" and the formation tells you it is a self contained detachment but not what slots if any are in there. You are wrong, you don't take units in this case you take a formation containing units completely different to all the other detachments.

You have just said that it is identical except its completely different.

So can you show that the contents list is a FOC as you say?

Ok so sometimes there are choices in Apoc formations. That is a different game so I don't care atm.

They are still formation detachments, and it's all 40k. Apocalypse just uses much larger formations. Point and unit-wise.

Ok, are they taking up troops slots yet?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
The debate has come down to whether Troops taken from a non-primary detachment are scoring correct? Or more specifically, only Troops taken as Troop selections from the primary detachment are scoring.

No.
Only troops that are troop selections, from any detachment, are scoring. I've never limited my argument to the primary detachment.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Or do you want to talk about how Venomthropes are scoring units now?

Again another Strawman.

No it's not. I'll demonstrate.

Termagants in a Formation detachment are not troop selections. Your assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".
Venomthropes in a Primary detachment are not troop selections. My assertion is that they can score anyway due to the word "normally".

Your next response will be to ask for a rule allowing Venomthropes in a Primary detachment to score. But you refuse to provide me with one saying Termagants in a Formation detachment can score.

Do you truly not see the hypocrisy?

But I believe you have. Emphasis mine.

Read the context of that comment. I used the Primary Detachment because there may be a way in a Formation to take them otherwise. It wasn't limiting the argument to Troops in a Primary detachment (indeed - the Venomtrope isn't a troop at all). In fact, remove the words "in a Primary Detachment" from that sentence completely. It changes literally nothing about my point or my argument.

You believe incorrectly. Please drop the strawman.

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

To meet these qualifications a unit must be taken from the 'troops selection'. This does not mean they must currently exist there. Units in formations are purchased the same way as primary units are, from the FOC in the codex. There's no other way to purchase them. Then placing them in a formation does not change where they are from, it only makes them not take up a selection, it does not mean they are not from one.

The underlined statement is incorrect. Units in a Formation detachment are not selected to fill boxes on the FOC. There's the primary and most relevant difference.

Also the troops(plural) selection(singular) means it's referring to a singular or general selection with several troop options. This cannot refer to the specific troops occupying the FOC as that would have to be expressed as 'troop selections'. Given the words they use and the correct meaning given their order and tense it seems clear to me that it only matters in which part of the FOC they originate, not where they end up and that the 'troops selection' refers to a singular but wide category of possible troop selections available on the FOC as opposed to a single specific selection that would leave you with only one scoring unit.

Incorrect. The section of the Army List is named "Troops". So to be consistent they have to use Troops as a title (why they don't consistently capitalize it I'm not sure).
And, as I've demonstrated multiple times, "selection" is equated to a box on the FOC. Not some generic use of the word "selection".

Actually, it would appear that Formations DO allow choices. Let's take a look.

Spoiler:

"All XV88 Broadside must have three models excluding drones."
It would appear that you can add more models to the Team, or you can choose to add more models.

But you're not choosing to add units. Which was his point, of course. And even if you choose units, they're not units that fill a box on the FOC unless you can find a Formation FOC that has boxes.

You know. Pesky rules and all.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh, you know I never knew there was such a thing as a compulsory choice...
I know how FOCs work "normally" and the formation tells you it is a self contained detachment but not what slots if any are in there. You are wrong, you don't take units in this case you take a formation containing units completely different to all the other detachments.

You have just said that it is identical except its completely different.

So can you show that the contents list is a FOC as you say?

Ok so sometimes there are choices in Apoc formations. That is a different game so I don't care atm.

BRB defines choices on the FOC as "compulsory" and "optional."

Also, there are non-APOC formations with choices. The Tyrannic War Veterans formations requires Cassius, 1+ Tyrannic War Veterans and 0-6 Stormtalons.

I also disagree with your assessment: the formation as a whole is clearly a detachment. All detachments consists of units. The only difference is that formations are much more prescriptive on the types and numbers of units you may select than all other detachments.

Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You seem to be seeing unit choices where there are none. We are talking about which units and where they go, not what the units contain.

Ah, well then. Perhaps be a little more specific next time.
Apocaypse Formations have quite a few choices generally.
Carnival of Pain
Urien Rakarth or Ancient Haemonculus
0+ Haemonculus
0+ 3 Grotesque units
0+ Wrack units
3+ pain engines

As you can see, formations do occasionally have more than one unit option.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:


Actually, it would appear that Formations DO allow choices. Let's take a look.

Spoiler:

"All XV88 Broadside must have three models excluding drones."
It would appear that you can add more models to the Team, or you can choose to add more models.

But you're not choosing to add units. Which was his point, of course. And even if you choose units, they're not units that fill a box on the FOC unless you can find a Formation FOC that has boxes.
You know. Pesky rules and all.

Apocalypse Formations, another form of Formation Detachments, have plenty of boxes to fill.

And a picture.

I don't think anyone is arguing that formations are not detachments consisting of units... in fact I'm positive the issue is that these formation detachments are not the norm at all and don't have those all important slots that decide what you count as in the FOC.
They don't fulfil page 123's criteria for being scoring.

So far all I've seen is that the formation detachments are a hole you throw units into without any guidance on if they are in a slot or not. If they did show some sort of guidance you could answer clearly if a tervigon in the incubator node was a troop or HQ selection.

Nope the BRB says that 1 HQ and 2 troop slots are compulsory, they are still choices as you can CHOOSE what units to put in there. Still good try on saying a choice isn't a choice. You still have yet to show that a formation contains one troops selection.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I don't think anyone is arguing that formations are not detachments consisting of units... in fact I'm positive the issue is that these formation detachments are not the norm at all and don't have those all important slots that decide what you count as in the FOC.
They don't fulfil page 123's criteria for being scoring.

So far all I've seen is that the formation detachments are a hole you throw units into without any guidance on if they are in a slot or not. If they did show some sort of guidance you could answer clearly if a tervigon in the incubator node was a troop or HQ selection.

Nope the BRB says that 1 HQ and 2 troop slots are compulsory, they are still choices as you can CHOOSE what units to put in there. Still good try on saying a choice isn't a choice. You still have yet to show that a formation contains one troops selection.

Formations do not have an over-arching FOC, because it varies by formation.
Formation Rules-
FORMATIONS
A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a
particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of
Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army,
and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units
make it up.
Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or
restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The Army List Entries for each
unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special
rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on
the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself.

Note this-

ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

Are not a restriction for Desperate Allies that Troops aren't scoring? So if you took a Battle Brother detachment, are not Battle Brother's troops scoring?
If I take a Dark Eldar primary detachment, and a Eldar formation, I count the formation as Battle Brothers. Troops would score in the detachment.
If I take a Dark Eldar primary detachment, and a Tau formation, I treat the formation as Desperate Allies. Troops would not score.

You're making an If A then B, hence if B then A fallacy there with the battle brothers argument.

Formations do have an over arching FOC, it's called the FOC. Formations are part of the FOC.

The restrictions that you have bolded are the ones in the formation rules. There are other restrcitions that apply because the formation rules do not exist in a vacuum. That they change from formation to formation isn't an argument for why they don't have to follow the rules of page 123. Detachments are different all the time but they still function according to the rules of the game.

That they don't list slots is the VERY THING we are arguing about. So thanks you for your admission that formations do not grant the ability for genestealers etc to score.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You're making an If A then B, hence if B then A fallacy there with the battle brothers argument.

Formations do have an over arching FOC, it's called the FOC. Formations are part of the FOC.

The restrictions that you have bolded are the ones in the formation rules. There are other restrcitions that apply because the formation rules do not exist in a vacuum.

That they don't list slots is the VERY THING we are arguing about. So thanks you for your admission that formations do not grant the ability for genestealers etc to score.

No, you treat Formation exactly as if they were an allied detachment.
However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
It only lists when units do not score in alliances, not when they do. To restrict them from scoring, would mean that they have to score.
You can't restrict it from doing something that it wouldn't do in the first place.

No you don't treat it like an allied detachment specifically as you don't have the mandatory 1 troop, 1 HQ slots and a limit on the number of HS, FA etc slots you can take. The formation rules even say that it is not an allied detachment because an allied detachment is a very specific thing in the FOC.

The alliance rules have nothing to do with this argument. That is obeys the same rules for being battle brothers etc is not supporting any arguments.

Page 123 lists exactly when units score and a non-exhaustive list of reasons why a unit may not score. There are other reasons why a unit may not score specific rules or effects can cause it too. Not being a troops selection means you don't meet the first requirement to be scoring. You are actually wrong on this aspect of the rules.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No you don't treat it like an allied detachment specifically as you don't have the mandatory 1 troop, 1 HQ slots and a limit on the number of HS, FA etc slots you can take.

The alliance rules have nothing to do with this argument.

Page 123 lists exactly when units score and a non-exhaustive list of reasons why a unit may score. You are actually wrong on this aspect of the rules.

The formation rules defining how formations act have nothing to do with this argument? It specifically says you treat it as you would an allied detachment. Or the levels of alliance rules from the BRB apply to them. I'll repost this.

ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

Battle Brother allies score. Desperate Allies do not. A detachment of Battle Brothers score. A detachment of Desperate Allies do not.

No. Battle brother allied units only score if they meet the requirements for scoring. Those are on page 123. I have told you this twice now.

That the levels of alliance apply to them is irrelevant to the question of is the unit in a troops slot or not.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Apocalypse Formations, another form of Formation Detachments, have plenty of boxes to fill.

And a picture.

Spoiler:

I don't think that's an FOC, but it's irrelevant. The Formations we're talking about have literally nothing like that.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No. Battle brother allied units only score if they meet the requirements for scoring. Those are on page 123. I have told you this twice now.

That the levels of alliance apply to them is irrelevant to the question of is the unit in a troops slot or not.

So my allied Eldar detachment to my Dark Eldar are not scoring, even though they're Battle Brothers? The rules on allies never specify when they score(found on pg. 112 of the BRB), only when they do not. It would seem that the design team seems to put more weight on normally in this sentence on page. 123- "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
Page 112 of the BRB has no mention of when allies score, only when they do not. You might call it an exception such as the ones on page 123. Troops in an allied Formation score, except when in Desperate Alliance.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Page 112 of the BRB has no mention of when allies score, only when they do not. You might call it an exception such as the ones on page 123. Troops in an allied Formation score, except when in Desperate Alliance.

Are they taken as a troop selection?

Yes. It's almost as if page 112 has extra restrictions to page 123's non-exhaustive list of reasons why units don't score.

Are your allied eldar units occupying a troops slot?
If no then they cannot score unless you have a rule granting them an ability to. This game works on permission, you need permission to score and you have to fulfil the requirement that that permission demands.

Ok, so now that you've talked about allied detachments for a while can you talk about what we're actually discussing in this thread?

Can you show why a unit in a formation occupies a slot?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Page 112 of the BRB has no mention of when allies score, only when they do not. You might call it an exception such as the ones on page 123. Troops in an allied Formation score, except when in Desperate Alliance.

Are they taken as a troop selection?

No, they're taken as allies. Pg 112 tells you how to treat allies in your army. The only mention of scoring is when Desperate Allies do not score. A formation of Desperate Allies would not score. A formation of Battle Brothers would score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes. It's almost as if page 112 has extra restrictions to page 123's non-exhaustive list of reasons why units don't score.

Are your allied eldar units occupying a troops slot?
If no then they cannot score unless you have a rule granting them an ability to. This game works on permission, you need permission to score and you have to fulfil the requirement that that permission demands.

Ok, so now that you've talked about allied detachments for a while can you talk about what we're actually discussing in this thread?

Can you show why a unit in a formation occupies a slot?

It's almost as if occupying a slot doesn't matter as to whether a troop scores or not, if the levels of alliance appllies to formations.

Oh wow....
Are you actually trolling?
Occupying a troops slot is the only requirement in the brb for being scoring. If you haven't done that then you don't score.

The rules for allies are not in a vacuum, the scoring rules still apply. Similarly just because my allies rules don't say that swarms cannot score doesn't mean that the swarm rules no longer apply.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Page 112 of the BRB has no mention of when allies score, only when they do not. You might call it an exception such as the ones on page 123. Troops in an allied Formation score, except when in Desperate Alliance.

Are they taken as a troop selection?

No, they're taken as allies. Pg 112 tells you how to treat allies in your army. The only mention of scoring is when Desperate Allies do not score. A formation of Desperate Allies would not score. A formation of Battle Brothers would score.

Great - there's no rule forbidding them from scoring (as they're Battle Brothers).
Let's see if any other rules prevent them from scoring, shall we?

An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart

So did they come from the troops selection of the FOC?

Or are you trying to argue that, regardless of where in the Army List a unit sits, a Battle Brother Formation Detachment scores with every unit?