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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:21:41
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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liturgies of blood wrote:Oh wow....
Are you actually trolling?
Occupying a troops slot is the only requirement in the brb for being scoring. If you haven't done that then you don't score.
The rules for allies are not in a vacuum, the scoring rules still apply. Similarly just because my allies rules don't say that swarms cannot score doesn't mean that the swarm rules no longer apply.
Being classified as a Troop in the codex is enough to count as scoring. Some exceptions are listed on page 112 and 123.. Apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations- Battle Brother allied Troops score, Allies of Convenience Troops score, but Desperate Allies Troops do not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:Page 112 of the BRB has no mention of when allies score, only when they do not. You might call it an exception such as the ones on page 123. Troops in an allied Formation score, except when in Desperate Alliance.
Are they taken as a troop selection?
No, they're taken as allies. Pg 112 tells you how to treat allies in your army. The only mention of scoring is when Desperate Allies do not score. A formation of Desperate Allies would not score. A formation of Battle Brothers would score.
Great - there's no rule forbidding them from scoring (as they're Battle Brothers).
Let's see if any other rules prevent them from scoring, shall we?
An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart
So did they come from the troops selection of the FOC?
Or are you trying to argue that, regardless of where in the Army List a unit sits, a Battle Brother Formation Detachment scores with every unit?
Nope. Only that units classified as Troops in the parent codex are scoring, unless they have an exception such as swarms or are in Desperate Alliance.
On another note, no where in Formations does it say Troops do not score.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/11 19:24:29
Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:24:07
Subject: Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Sinful Hero wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:Oh wow....
Are you actually trolling?
Occupying a troops slot is the only requirement in the brb for being scoring. If you haven't done that then you don't score.
The rules for allies are not in a vacuum, the scoring rules still apply. Similarly just because my allies rules don't say that swarms cannot score doesn't mean that the swarm rules no longer apply.
Being classified as a Troop in the codex is enough to count as scoring. Some exceptions are listed on page 112 and 123.. Apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations- Battle Brother allied Troops score, Allies of Convenience Troops score, but Desperate Allies Troops do not.
The underlined is an incorrect statement. I've quoted the rule many times before. Perhaps you should read it.
Nope. Only that units classified as Troops in the parent codex are scoring, unless they have an exception such as swarms or are in Desperate Alliance.
So you're just going to ignore the rule that literally requires them to be a selection on the FOC?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:26:25
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Ok, so can you show us a slot in the formations that a unit would occupy to be scoring?
Being classed as a troop in the codex is not enough, specifically because units that take up troops slots in the FOC are defined as what it requires to be scoring.
Do you know why I say this? It's because the rules on page 123, which I have told you about in every post since you joined this thread tell you that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:26:36
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:Oh wow....
Are you actually trolling?
Occupying a troops slot is the only requirement in the brb for being scoring. If you haven't done that then you don't score.
The rules for allies are not in a vacuum, the scoring rules still apply. Similarly just because my allies rules don't say that swarms cannot score doesn't mean that the swarm rules no longer apply.
Being classified as a Troop in the codex is enough to count as scoring. Some exceptions are listed on page 112 and 123.. Apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations- Battle Brother allied Troops score, Allies of Convenience Troops score, but Desperate Allies Troops do not.
The underlined is an incorrect statement. I've quoted the rule many times before. Perhaps you should read it.
Nope. Only that units classified as Troops in the parent codex are scoring, unless they have an exception such as swarms or are in Desperate Alliance.
So you're just going to ignore the rule that literally requires them to be a selection on the FOC?
This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:28:12
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Lol.
Normal cannot apply so I make rules up. Allies don't create magical scoring units. So please show a quote for how units can score without meeting the requirements?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 19:30:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:28:42
Subject: Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Sinful Hero wrote:This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.
There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:36:30
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.
There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.
Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:38:07
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.
There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.
Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.
And not a single rules citation that contradicts page 123. It's like you're not even trying.
Page 123 isn't limited to Primary detachments. You're artificially limiting it - or expanding what is allowed to score - without citing a rule to do so.
Please cite actual rules instead of pontificating.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:38:19
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Can you show some rules to back up this opinion?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:40:12
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.
There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.
Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.
So since Tervigons are listed as HQs, when taken as a Troop they are non-scoring?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:46:34
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.
There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.
Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.
And not a single rules citation that contradicts page 123. It's like you're not even trying.
Page 123 isn't limited to Primary detachments. You're artificially limiting it - or expanding what is allowed to score - without citing a rule to do so.
Please cite actual rules instead of pontificating.
liturgies of blood wrote:Can you show some rules to back up this opinion?
Troops are scoring as of page 123(An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organizaiont chart). HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never mentioned as scoring, unless a rule specifically lets them such as Big Guns Never Tire, or that allows them to be used as Troops(Baron Sathonyx and Hellions). Troops are always counted as scoring, as evidenced by Allies(it mentions when they are not scoring. If Troops are not scoring in Desperate Allies, then they must be scoring in Battle Brothers), and the Formations rules to use to refer to the levels of alliance for restrictions(If a formation of Desperate Allies Troops are not scoring, then a formation of Battle Brothers Troops must be scoring).
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/11 19:52:04
Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:48:12
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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False rules quote == false premise == false conclusions.
Please read page 123 and quote it correctly.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:49:36
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote:
False rules quote == false premise == false conclusions.
Please read page 123 and quote it correctly.
Quote added.
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:51:23
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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And the correct quote completely invalidates your conclusions.
You also left in a false assumption ("Troops are always counted as scoring").
Troop selections are scoring. Troops that are not Troop selections (ie - chosen to fill a box on the FOC) are not scoring.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:53:18
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote:
And the correct quote completely invalidates your conclusions.
You also left in a false assumption ("Troops are always counted as scoring").
Troop selections are scoring. Troops that are not Troop selections (ie - chosen to fill a box on the FOC) are not scoring.
Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:54:18
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Sinful Hero wrote:Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.
Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:55:42
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.
Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?
Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:58:12
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.
Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?
Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?
The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 19:58:24
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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The bit that says that says what units score.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:07:48
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.
Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?
Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?
The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.
I'm sorry, I read that as troop selections score. Troops as defined by the codex. Selections is never mentioned again- even within the accompanying paragraph- "The main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission(see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:". No mention of selection in that paragraph at all. It states obviously that only troops can control objectives, or when a troop does not score. Not that only troop selections can control objectives, or when troop selections do not score. It just mentions troops.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 20:08:20
Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:12:27
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.
Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?
Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?
The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.
I'm sorry, I read that as troop selections score. Troops as defined by the codex. Selections is never mentioned again- even within the accompanying paragraph- "The main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission(see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:". No mention of selection in that paragraph at all. It states obviously that only troops can control objectives, or when a troop does not score. Not that only troop selections can control objectives, or when troop selections do not score. It just mentions troops.
Troop selections score.
Find permission for anything that is not a troop selection to score. I've asked before and wasn't ever provided with an answer. Your argument hinges on finding something.
We know how "selection" is defined.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:15:27
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection.
You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections.
Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one.
I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:17:04
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.
Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?
Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?
The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.
I'm sorry, I read that as troop selections score. Troops as defined by the codex. Selections is never mentioned again- even within the accompanying paragraph- "The main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission(see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:". No mention of selection in that paragraph at all. It states obviously that only troops can control objectives, or when a troop does not score. Not that only troop selections can control objectives, or when troop selections do not score. It just mentions troops.
Troop selections score.
Find permission for anything that is not a troop selection to score. I've asked before and wasn't ever provided with an answer. Your argument hinges on finding something.
We know how "selection" is defined.
You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:19:21
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Sinful Hero wrote:You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.
And all those specifically state that a non-troops selection scores. Now where is there specific permission for non-troops selection to score regarding formations?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:19:29
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Sinful Hero wrote:You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.
Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument?
Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:20:00
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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liturgies of blood wrote:Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection.
You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections.
Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one.
I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.
Page 123 states that troops control objectives, not troop selections. I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.
Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument?
Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.
ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.
This rule here specifically states when a troop is not scoring, a Desperate Alliance. Your whole argument hinges on the word "selection", which is not even found in the rest of the paragraph. Troops units control objectives. Troops are defined when not scoring with the following. No rules contradicts that Battle Brother formations are scoring. Troops control objectives, not troop selections.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/11 20:24:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:24:13
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Sinful Hero wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection. You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections. Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one. I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.
Page 123 states that troops control objectives, not troop selections. I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex. Hmm. I'm not seeing on page 123 that troops control objectives. I see that scoring units control objectives, and that scoring units are units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart (which as rigeld has shown multiple times means it fills a Troops slot on the FOC). Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.
Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument? Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.
ALLIED FORMATIONS Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that are in the same army. For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied Detachment in the same army. This rule here specifically states when a troop is not scoring, a Desperate Alliance. Your whole argument hinges on the word "selection", which is not even found in the rest of the paragraph. Troops units control objectives. Troops are defined when not scoring with the following. No rules contradicts that Battle Brother formations are scoring. Troops control objectives, not troop selections. I don't see anything in ALLIED FORMATIONS that even mentions scoring.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 20:25:40
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:27:05
Subject: Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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Happyjew wrote: Sinful Hero wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection.
You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections.
Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one.
I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.
Page 123 states that troops control objectives, not troop selections. I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.
Hmm. I'm not seeing on page 123 that troops control objectives. I see that scoring units control objectives, and that scoring units are units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart (which as rigeld has shown multiple times means it fills a Troops slot on the FOC).
Troops control objectives, not scoring units. The sentence on page 123 in full- "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it." Troops, not scoring units.
However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
Applying the levels of alliance rules to formations would equate to a Desperate Alliance, troops are not scoring. Battle Brothers, troops are scoring. To not be scoring in a desperate alliance, would mean they must be scoring in Battle Brothers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 20:28:54
Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:28:12
Subject: Troops in Formations
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The Hive Mind
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Really? So soon after you quoted the actual rule?
An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart
It says, factually, that scoring units come from the troops selection of the FOC. So your statement is absolutely incorrect - and you've been corrected about this before. Please stop spreading false information.
rigeld2 wrote: Sinful Hero wrote:You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.
Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument?
Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.
ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
Nope, not seeing the word "scoring" or "selection" in there.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.
Not even in the example.
This rule here specifically states when a troop is not scoring, a Desperate Alliance. Your whole argument hinges on the word "selection", which is not even found in the rest of the paragraph. Troops units control objectives. Troops are defined when not scoring with the following.
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?
Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/11 20:56:08
Subject: Re:Troops in Formations
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Fixture of Dakka
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ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.
I'm seeing it right there. Applying the Levels of Alliance rules to formations results in troops in Desperate Alliances to not be scoring. For something to not be scoring, it had to be scoring in the first place. Applying that logic, troops in Battle Brother alliances must be scoring, and troops in Allies of Convenience must be scoring. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies must have permission to be scoring, which they are not given anywhere in the levels of alliance.
You keep saying, "B-B-But they aren't troop selections of the FOC!", which obviously Formations don't recognize nor use the rules for FOC. They use the rules found in the dataslate, the codex, and the Levels of Alliance. The Levels of Alliance implies troops are scoring, except when in Desperate Alliance. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies rules are never mentioned, so you can apply the BRB rules to them- they don't score. Fairly simple logic here.
How do we know a unit is a Troop with no FOC? By their codex entry.
FORMATIONS
A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a
particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of
Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army,
and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units
make it up.
Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or
restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The Army List Entries for each
unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special
rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on
the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself.
A unit of Hormaguants is a Troop in their codex. Troops are not scoring in Desperate Alliances. So troops must be scoring in Battle Brothers, and Allies of Convenience.
A Hive Tyrant is an HQ in its codex. A HQ is never scoring unless given permission to do so. The Levels of Alliance never give permission to HQs to score, nor is it mentioned when they do not score. It is never implied they can score.
Troops in Formations are allied to score because you apply the Levels of Alliance to them, not the FOC. The FOC is irrelevant to whether Troops are scoring in Formations- only the Levels of Alliance. Troops are mentioned as not scoring in Desperate Alliances, and to not be scoring in one form of alliance they must obviously be able to score in others(Battle Brothers and Allies of Convenience).
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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