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 Sinful Hero wrote:
ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

I'm seeing it right there. Applying the Levels of Alliance rules to formations results in troops in Desperate Alliances to not be scoring. For something to not be scoring, it had to be scoring in the first place. Applying that logic, troops in Battle Brother alliances must be scoring, and troops in Allies of Convenience must be scoring. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies must have permission to be scoring, which they are not given anywhere in the levels of alliance.
You keep saying, "B-B-But they aren't troop selections of the FOC!", which obviously Formations don't recognize nor use the rules for FOC. They use the rules found in the dataslate, the codex, and the Levels of Alliance. The Levels of Alliance implies troops are scoring, except when in Desperate Alliance. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies rules are never mentioned, so you can apply the BRB rules to them- they don't score. Fairly simple logic here.

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

How do we know a unit is a Troop with no FOC? By their codex entry.

A unit of Hormaguants is a Troop in their codex. Troops are not scoring in Desperate Alliances. So troops must be scoring in Battle Brothers, and Allies of Convenience.

If they are troop selections, yes. Since, you know, that's what the rule says.

Troops in Formations are allied to score because you apply the Levels of Alliance to them, not the FOC. The FOC is irrelevant to whether Troops are scoring in Formations- only the Levels of Alliance. Troops are mentioned as not scoring in Desperate Alliances, and to not be scoring in one form of alliance they must obviously be able to score in others(Battle Brothers and Allies of Convenience).

Please cite the exact rule from Levels of Alliance that allows Formation troops to score. Not an implication or assumption, the actual rule.

I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

So you are saying that it's not troop slots that matter for allied units it's the army list?

Does that mean that my allied army with logan grimnar and all WG troops selections doesn't score?

Can you show any rules to back up that the formations don't require troops slots? Or will you continue to make a false equivalence that is not backed up by the rules?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If units that are from the troops section of the army list are always scoring then why does conjuration powers remind you that it's only troop selections?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

I'm seeing it right there. Applying the Levels of Alliance rules to formations results in troops in Desperate Alliances to not be scoring. For something to not be scoring, it had to be scoring in the first place. Applying that logic, troops in Battle Brother alliances must be scoring, and troops in Allies of Convenience must be scoring. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies must have permission to be scoring, which they are not given anywhere in the levels of alliance.
You keep saying, "B-B-But they aren't troop selections of the FOC!", which obviously Formations don't recognize nor use the rules for FOC. They use the rules found in the dataslate, the codex, and the Levels of Alliance. The Levels of Alliance implies troops are scoring, except when in Desperate Alliance. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies rules are never mentioned, so you can apply the BRB rules to them- they don't score. Fairly simple logic here.

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

How do we know a unit is a Troop with no FOC? By their codex entry.

A unit of Hormaguants is a Troop in their codex. Troops are not scoring in Desperate Alliances. So troops must be scoring in Battle Brothers, and Allies of Convenience.

If they are troop selections, yes. Since, you know, that's what the rule says.

Troops in Formations are allied to score because you apply the Levels of Alliance to them, not the FOC. The FOC is irrelevant to whether Troops are scoring in Formations- only the Levels of Alliance. Troops are mentioned as not scoring in Desperate Alliances, and to not be scoring in one form of alliance they must obviously be able to score in others(Battle Brothers and Allies of Convenience).

Please cite the exact rule from Levels of Alliance that allows Formation troops to score. Not an implication or assumption, the actual rule.

I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Troops selections are scoring. Just as Troops are. Page 123 does not define a Troop, it defines a scoring unit, which is normally a troop selection. I'll quote again- "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it." Troops selections do not control objectives- Troops do. The only difference between Troops and troop selections is that selections do not have exceptions to be scoring except for the ones applied to Troops. Hellions taken as a Troop choice(such as with Baron Sathonyx) are scoring, even though they are normally an Elite unit, because they are taken as a troop selection. Tervigons taken as a Troop choice(such as with scuttling swarm) are scoring because they are taken as a troop selection.
All forms of troops follow these guidelines-
"If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building.
If it has the Swarms special rule.
If it has a special rules specifying that it never counts as a scoring unit.
If it is currently falling back (If the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again)."

Page 128, under Big Guns Never Tire, Heavy Metal:
"Unlike other missions, in Big Guns Never Tire, your heavy units are scoring units, not just your troops units.

Notice the lack of troop selections? Seems to clearly state that troop units are scoring without mentioning whether they are a selection. Being a selection is not required to be scoring, merely being a troop.

Page 112, under Desperate Allies:
"Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of Convenience. Furthermore, if your primary detachment is in desperate alliance, units from that allied detachment are non-scoring, non-denial units."

Notice how you treat Desperate Allies exactly, as Allies of Convenience, but for the non-scoring, non-denial part? Again, troops are control objectives(score), not just troop selections.
Troop selections, and Troops score. So no, I do not have to agree to ignore selections on page 123. Both control objectives, and both score. Scoring troops are not limited to selections, but normally they are(because normally you can only field through the Primary FOC), which is why normally was dropped into the sentence- for exceptions such as Big Guns Never Tire, Alliances, and even Formations. The examples above reinforce the idea that Troops score unless it mentions they do not. Not just Troop selections, but all Troops.

If all troops are scoring I'll ask again, why does conjuration remind you that units only score as per page 123?

If you are correct please square this circle. If it's not too much could you also avoid taking leaps of logic and introducing inferences that are not supported with the RAW and calling it so.

If you are arguing intent that's cool just let us know.

I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If all troops are scoring I'll ask again, why does conjuration remind you that units only score as per page 123?

If you are correct please square this circle. If it's not too much could you also avoid taking leaps of logic and introducing inferences that are not supported with the RAW and calling it so.

If you are arguing intent that's cool just let us know.

Conjuration?
Ultimately it would appear I'm arguing Intent, so RAI. My point is that Troops score whether they are selections or not, unless specifically mentioned they do not. The opposite of HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies- they must be mentioned to be scoring to be able to score. otherwise they are not scoring units.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

I thought I did- No, I do not agree with the statement. My argument does not ignore the word "selection". It includes it- Troop selections of the FOC are scoring, as are Troops taken from other sources(such as formations from dataslates).

Ok as you're arguing RAI, then it doesn't matter. Myself and Rigeld are arguing RAW.

I don't bother with RAI as it's impossible to say what the design team were going for.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

They are Troops selections because they are units in the the Troop section of the army list. If your trying to hang your argument of the definition of a word, your typically wrong.

Lol,
fragile didn't you hang your argument on "normally"?

Also they are troops selections as they are in the troops slots on the FOC. Those units come from the troops section of the army list in most cases but rules move other units in there.
Again it's not where you are in the army list it's where you are on the FOC that matters because that's what the rules say.

For Overwatch? Not really. But it makes sense. In this thread, no.

Again it's not where you are in the army list it's where you are on the FOC that matters because that's what the rules say.

And that is where you are trying to twist the word to make it exclusive where it doesnt say that it is.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok as you're arguing RAI, then it doesn't matter. Myself and Rigeld are arguing RAW.

I don't bother with RAI as it's impossible to say what the design team were going for.

So you're saying RAI: troops in formations are scoring, but RAW: they are not? Is that the conclusion that has been reached so far? Because I've provided plenty of reasons why they were intended to be scoring.

No I am saying RAI is unclear and the RAW is so very different from your view on RAI. There are rules that allow for the creation of non scoring units from the troops section of an army list in several places such as the conjuration powers. I don't see anything strongly pointing to these formations being in troop slots.

You've spent two pages wasting time as myself and rigeld were arguing RAW. I don't argue about opinions as that is a waste of time.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No I am saying RAI is unclear and the RAW is so very different from your view on RAI. There are rules that allow for the creation of non scoring units from the troops section of an army list in several places such as the conjuration powers. I don't see anything strongly pointing to these formations being in troop slots.

You've spent two pages wasting time as myself and rigeld were arguing RAW. I don't argue about opinions as that is a waste of time.

RAI is pretty clear. RAW henges on the word selection and a narrow view of normally, so no it's not too far from RAI. RAI is not opinion, but intent. Rules as intended? Formations say to refer to levels of alliance as to which rules apply to them. Treating a formation as an alliance, troops are scoring except when in desperate alliance.
We are not arguing whether spawned troops score, but whether formation troops score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, spawned troops are made during the game, while formations are selected during list building.

RAI is (your) opinion on the intent of the rules writers. Intent is something you cannot tell clearly on a prima facia basis, that's why we have juries in the real world. You say the intent is clear, I disagree. Both opinions are just as valid because that's how belief works and we cannot know the intent until an FAQ deals with this situation.

You have to treat formations as alliances to know how the units interact with others in your army. If they have the desperate allies restrictions etc. That's all you can actually say without pulling stuff from the aether.

We are also not arguing about alliance rules but conjuration powers and spawned units occupy an area in your army outside the FOC as per page 109 just like the formation we are talking about. The portalglyph and those powers don't state units are scoring, conjuration goes as far as to remind us they don't.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
These 'Force org' and 'Roles' are at points in the BRB are also referred to as 'Battlefield roles' this is confusing, and the wording is very inconsistent between the three throughout (like somebody couldn't make their mind up) but they are all essentially the same thing.

The bolded is false. Please quote one time, ever, in the BRB where the words "battlefield role" occur together. Page number and quote the sentence please.

My mistake, In the BRB they are only referred to as Army List (this one is used in codex's), Force org and Roles - only in later publications do we see battlefield role.

Another issue is that as spawned units, or units which arrive on the board in such a way are never selected. These would then need specific permission to be allowed score, there have been a few examples around on different threads but the crux is spawned units act as a normal codex unit, as do formation units.

The actual rules for a Tervigon at least do use the word "selected" so... non issue.
The Portalglyph rules do not use the word selected, so they wouldn't score.


What I'm getting is that some people assume that all Troops are always scoring unless told otherwise - which isn't what the rules actually say. Since I'm discussing rules here I'd rather go with what the rules actually say than what someone assumes or thinks is intended.

I've asked for evidence. No one has ever provided it. I've explained why that evidence is needed. I've been mocked in return. I've been told that reasonable people see it the other way - which isn't actually using rules to discuss the issue.

RAI - I think the Portalglyph Troops should be allowed to score, but I don't think the Dataslates are as clear cut.

I don't mean to come across as mocking, though I will pick apart what the implications of using selections to justify none scoring formations in a game when you come to the table (Which we can appreciate is a different situation, but some people will use anything they can get their hands on to assert themselves.) means for other rules.
This is because I believe its inconsequential.
Through pointing out the mess which is the terminology on this subject, and the inconstancies it causes with other rules many believe are well established to be questioned if this word actually is suppose to impact how we play, a long side the fact the BRB in this case is outdated and strict BRB RAW there is no possibility to take formations in the first place.

HIWPI
Scoring, DS's like the Genestealer ones are massive point sinks with locked in choices, outside a unusually high point games this makes it pretty much useless as the player would have to go for a crushing victory. The [usual] downside of data slates are often overlooked, you get fluffy combinations at the price of having to take 'those' units.

RAI
Scoring, Troops always being scoring IS a common assumption, being so common its less likely the designers released DS after DS forgetting to note, remind, or point out in any publication these troops are not scoring.
There's also the really big lit up Troops.
In addition, the rules point out both when a troops unit is and is not scoring, this situation is not mentioned in either.

Raw
Either

Selection does in fact act as a limitation on the rules, this would mean...

- Troops in formations do not score
- Though, Formation heavy and fast attack do score during big guns and scouring (Due to lack of 'selection' in those rules AKA they only have to be a HS unit, not a HS selection.)
- Dedication transports in any detachment can not score when taken for a troops unit (again HS&Fast are unaffected), even when your vehicle can (As while they count as the same Army list/Force Org/ section as the unit they were bought for, the DT unit are not selected for the FOC, they are noted as sitting outside the force org structure).
- Some troops which are spawned/ appear mid game may or may not score, depending on whether 'selection' appears in their own rules

Selection does not act as a limitation in which case they...

- Act like any other detachments in these respects.


Me; There is no RAW covering this in the BRB, they are not listed as scoring troops, neither are they listed under the conditions of not being scoring troops.

Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
What the rule book says is models called Troops are scoring, unless stated otherwise.

Absolutely, 100% false.
It actually says, and I've quoted this at least twice before,

An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart

I underlined the word that you keep ignoring - it's a very important word.

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

To meet these qualifications a unit must be taken from the 'troops selection'. This does not mean they must currently exist there. Units in formations are purchased the same way as primary units are, from the FOC in the codex. There's no other way to purchase them. Then placing them in a formation does not change where they are from, it only makes them not take up a selection, it does not mean they are not from one.


Also the troops(plural) selection(singular) means it's referring to a singular or general selection with several troop options. This cannot refer to the specific troops occupying the FOC as that would have to be expressed as 'troop selections'. Given the words they use and the correct meaning given their order and tense it seems clear to me that it only matters in which part of the FOC they originate, not where they end up and that the 'troops selection' refers to a singular but wide category of possible troop selections available on the FOC as opposed to a single specific selection that would leave you with only one scoring unit.

Abandon, the rule you quoted yourself says "troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart." Not troops selections from the Army List.

The FOC is not just there for reference and keeping track of your unit requirements, etc. It's also how you purchase your units from the codex. Literally every unit you purchase in a normal fashion is from the FOC and formation units are indeed purchased as normal from the codex.

As I believe you see things, to be from the 'troops selection' you must be on the FOC, taking up a slot or 'selection'. Given the possibility of specific terms having specific meanings you might be right but there's some problems with that. The most pointed of which is that it uses the singular term 'selection' indicating that in that case only one selection(slot) would be scoring.

However if you reevaluate the meaning your associating with 'troops selection' and consider it could also be used to refer to a non-specific single category or general selection containing troops options troop options available from the FOC. The entire range of troop possibilities from the FOC (not any particular selections) can correctly be called the 'troops selection of the FOC' by referring to the troop options, not the specific final choices which would have to be called 'selections'.

Troops is a plural, so many troops, as in the selection of the troops or units in the army. So the selection of troops, the array of units, is scoring.

You can select or choose a plurality of items, it's funny how words work. If you disagree can you show that the following is an incorrect sentence. "My selection of seven rings."

Abandon, you see that sentence on page 123? You see how it is talking about a plural of units and says that "all the units(plural) that come from the troops(plural) selection".
It's almost as if the words on the page disagree completely with you.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

They are Troops selections because they are units in the the Troop section of the army list. If your trying to hang your argument of the definition of a word, your typically wrong.

Yeah, it's totally irrelevant when the rules define a word to base your argument on how they define that word.
Well played.

Or, actually - no. If the rules define that word, arguments must include that definition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

I thought I did- No, I do not agree with the statement. My argument does not ignore the word "selection". It includes it- Troop selections of the FOC are scoring, as are Troops taken from other sources(such as formations from dataslates).

Care to cite a rule saying that troops from other sources are scoring?
You keep saying the rules support it but fail - consistently - to prove that.

Regardless, you've admitted that your argument isn't RAW so I'm done. I don't care to argue intent.

Glad to see there are no more arguments as to the intent of the rules, now we can get down to the RAW meat of it.
Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring.

For example. pg 123 of the BRB reads-
"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart - the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission (see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:"

As evidenced by the BRB, we can see that troops selection is replaced by troops. Troops and troops selection are not mutually exclusive terms.

But let's look at the Force Organization chart, perhaps we can find troops selection there. Page 109.

I see troops, but I see no troops selection. Could someone find a troops selection for me?

Perhaps a troops selection is defined in the rules? Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a definition of a troops selection in the BRB. I see that Troops are defined on page 108. Troops are in the glossary. In my Tyranid codex I see that several different units are under the Troops heading. There doesn't appear to be a definition for troops selection!


So, since troops are scoring unless an exemption is given, the rules state that troops found in formations are scoring.

But how do we know a unit from a formation is a Troop?

There is a large bold heading indication a unit is a Troop.

What I need to know is,
1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

I've never seen anywhere that says scoring units must be from the troops FOC.

take for instance Pedro Kantor, if he's your warlord your stern guard are scoring units.

if the category of unit is a troop choice, its a scoring unit. unless your compatibility as allies compromises that.

I think its evident that the latest chaos formations of helbrutes exhibit this. it doesn't specifically say but the cultist/helbrute formation seems to be designed entirely on the premise that the owning player move this formation to an objective and park his ass there to make it a pain for you to remove him.

the only exception to this rule seems to be that Imperial Knights and LotD are only scoring if they are part of a primary detachment.

they wouldn't put that there I think if it was common knowledge that detachments and allies couldn't be scoring units.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring.

Incorrect.

As evidenced by the BRB, we can see that troops selection is replaced by troops. Troops and troops selection are not mutually exclusive terms.

Plain English shows that the sentence uses the implied "... A unit of troops that is a troop selection". But you've ignored words left and right so I'll forgive that.

But let's look at the Force Organization chart, perhaps we can find troops selection there. Page 109.
http://6inchmove.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/warhammer-40000-foc.jpg
I see troops, but I see no troops selection. Could someone find a troops selection for me?

Read page 109.

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

So we know what a selection is. A Troop selection is a selection that fills a troop box on the chart.
I've provided the definition before. I know you didn't miss it - you've referred to it. I understand it's inconvenient for your argument, but the rules absolutely do show troop selections on the FOC.

Perhaps a troops selection is defined in the rules? Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a definition of a troops selection in the BRB. I see that Troops are defined on page 108. Troops are in the glossary. In my Tyranid codex I see that several different units are under the Troops heading. There doesn't appear to be a definition for troops selection!

As above, this is 100% false.

1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

1. It's for you to prove that they are interchangeable. Proving a negative is incorrect.
2. Read above.
3. You've incorrectly cited page 123 yet again. It explicitly says troop selections are scoring. Because if that, contextually, any reference to scoring troops must be " ... that are from a troop selection".
4. False, they are not scoring as they are not troop selections and have no rule allowing them to score.
5. Don't need to prove that - I conceded that long ago.
6. Done.
7. Done.

I've done all these throughout the thread. I know you've read those posts - you responded to them.
By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

rigeld2 wrote:

By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

So, a new tactic. Anyone who disagrees with a post you've made previously, i or - in your opinion - overlooks evidence posted previously, is dishonest.

We know that sometimes those who accuse others of crimes are not without guilt themselves. Let's have a look, shall we?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
[u]However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to thems

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

So, a new tactic. Anyone who disagrees with a post you've made previously, i or - in your opinion - overlooks evidence posted previously, is dishonest.

No, that's not what I've said. At all. It'd would behoove you to read and understand posts instead of attempting to vilify me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
[u]However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to thems

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

In this post, you dismiss evidence that comes from the Dataslate itself, which has been posted repeatedly, and is entirely relevant to this argument. To quote again, the Vanguard dataslate, it specifically states that "a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3) and for formations, "the Levels of Alliance Rules do apply to them." (p4) It further states that, "the battlefield role... can be found in the dataslate."

This has been posted before, in a reply to one of your posts. It's entirely relevant to this argument. You've just denied that this line in the dataslate exists. Did you not read that post?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring.

Incorrect.

No, my argument is correct.

As evidenced by the BRB, we can see that troops selection is replaced by troops. Troops and troops selection are not mutually exclusive terms.

Plain English shows that the sentence uses the implied "... A unit of troops that is a troop selection". But you've ignored words left and right so I'll forgive that.

I'm sorry, we're arguing RAW, not RAI here. Implications are irrelevant, we're arguing facts, and the fact is that selection is never mentioned again on page 123. Please, find where troops selection controls an objective and I'll concede the point.

But let's look at the Force Organization chart, perhaps we can find troops selection there. Page 109.

I see troops, but I see no troops selection. Could someone find a troops selection for me?

Read page 109.

Yes, thank you. I have, and there is no troops selection, only little squares with troops in them. Could you find a square with troops selection in it?

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

So we know what a selection is. A Troop selection is a selection that fills a troop box on the chart.
I've provided the definition before. I know you didn't miss it - you've referred to it. I understand it's inconvenient for your argument, but the rules absolutely do show troop selections on the FOC.

Perhaps a troops selection is defined in the rules? Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a definition of a troops selection in the BRB. I see that Troops are defined on page 108. Troops are in the glossary. In my Tyranid codex I see that several different units are under the Troops heading. There doesn't appear to be a definition for troops selection!

As above, this is 100% false.

Citations needed here.

1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

1. It's for you to prove that they are interchangeable. Proving a negative is incorrect.
2. Read above.
3. You've incorrectly cited page 123 yet again. It explicitly says troop selections are scoring. Because if that, contextually, any reference to scoring troops must be " ... that are from a troop selection".
4. False, they are not scoring as they are not troop selections and have no rule allowing them to score.
5. Don't need to prove that - I conceded that long ago.
6. Done.
7. Done.

I've done all these throughout the thread. I know you've read those posts - you responded to them.
By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

Page 109 explains that the boxes on the chart allow you to make selections.
Meaning a troop box on the chart is filled by a troop selection.
As I've said multiple times. And you'd understand if you'd read page 109.

And context is RAW. Ignoring context is literally ignoring rules.

Could you provide the sentence stating that the boxes on the chart are troops selection and not troops? It would be most helpful. I can't find it myself.

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

@Rigled2,

Can you prove why the below statement is false? Saying something is "incorrect" with no proof or citations is not really winning an argument.

"Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

Citation is needed or this statement is just an opinion.

rigeld2 wrote:

I did. I've addressed it's relevance. Yes, the allies rules apply. No, there's no rule specifically denying scoring in the allies section (assuming not DA). Since you still don't have permission to score in the first place, however, it's irrelevant.

Thanks for posting this, it really helps illustrate your argument.

1: you've just dismissed, in the quoted post, the wording of the dataslate (despite reminders). Thanks for confirming your argument re the dataslate takes no account of the wording in the dataslate.

2: The dataslate wording specifies degrees of Alliance apply, precisely because some units are scoring. It would not otherwise be included.I t confirms that the BRB uses troops selections and troops for scoring troops interchangeably, as shown elsewhere.

Throughout this discussion, it seems the 'non-scoring' posts consistently don't quote or take account of the dataslate. Wouldn't it be a good idea to do so, as the dataslate is the subject of this debate?

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.