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 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
1: you've just dismissed, in the quoted post, the wording of the dataslate (despite reminders). Thanks for confirming your argument re the dataslate takes no account of the wording in the dataslate.

No I haven't. My arguments take them into account. As I've said.

2: The dataslate wording specifies degrees of Alliance apply, precisely because some units are scoring. It would not otherwise be included.I t confirms that the BRB uses troops selections and troops for scoring troops interchangeably, as shown elsewhere.

Yes, degrees of Alliance apply. Please cite the rule that specifies allies are scoring.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109 of the BRB. Under FORCE ORGANISATION CHART, first sentence of the second paragraph under the PRIMARY DETACHMENTS sub-section.

 thejughead wrote:
@Rigled2,

Can you prove why the below statement is false? Saying something is "incorrect" with no proof or citations is not really winning an argument.

"Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring."

They aren't used interchangeably. Because they don't mean the same thing.

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

Citation is needed or this statement is just an opinion.

I've cited it. Repeatedly. The quote I posted is on page 109.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109. As I've said repeatedly.
Thank you for proving you've not read my posts.

Happyjew wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109 of the BRB. Under FORCE ORGANISATION CHART, first sentence of the second paragraph under the PRIMARY DETACHMENTS sub-section.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
@Rigled2,

Can you prove why the below statement is false? Saying something is "incorrect" with no proof or citations is not really winning an argument.

"Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring."

They aren't used interchangeably. Because they don't mean the same thing.

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

Citation is needed or this statement is just an opinion.

I've cited it. Repeatedly. The quote I posted is on page 109.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109. As I've said repeatedly.
Thank you for proving you've not read my posts.

But this sentence does not offer a definition for a troops selection. It doesn't even mention troop at all! If you could just find a definition for a "troops selection, and how it is NOT a troop, this could help solve some of this ambiguity. I've asked for very simple things.I'll repeat this again-
1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.
That's all laid out and crystal clear. The FOC on page 109 doesn't mention troops selection in the boxes, it says "Troops". Your argument relies on ignoring all the evidence provided by the rulebook. As far as we can all admit, troops and troops selection is the same word! And so, if troops and troops selection are scoring, Troops found in dataslates are scoring unless stated differently!

What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:
What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

But here-

There are not troops selection present on the chart. Only Troops! We're not here to argue how we think the rules are written, we're here to discuss what the rules actually state. Your argument may have defined a selection, and we know the definition of troop, but what is the definition of the words used together in the rules? It seems like your argument continually ignores this. Find the definition of troops selection within the rules. And then we can go down the list-
1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.
These are simple things to find. All that is needed is one rule that specifically states that "Troops in Formations are not scoring units". That's the only sentence that needs to be found. Pg 123 makes no mention whatsoever of formations. Obviously, if there is no exception, they score.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

But here-

There are not troops selection present on the chart. Only Troops! We're not here to argue how we think the rules are written, we're here to discuss what the rules actually state. Your argument may have defined a selection, and we know the definition of troop, but what is the definition of the words used together in the rules? It seems like your argument continually ignores this. Find the definition of troops selection within the rules.

Find the definition of the word "the" in the rules.
This is a relevant question. Please answer it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

But here-

There are not troops selection present on the chart. Only Troops! We're not here to argue how we think the rules are written, we're here to discuss what the rules actually state. Your argument may have defined a selection, and we know the definition of troop, but what is the definition of the words used together in the rules? It seems like your argument continually ignores this. Find the definition of troops selection within the rules.

Find the definition of the word "the" in the rules.
This is a relevant question. Please answer it.

I'm afraid it's not. I'm asking for a rules term, not a definition. Troops are defined within the rules. Let's just go ahead and state the obvious- troops selection as a single entity is not defined in the rules. Units are not defined as selections, they're defined as Troops, Elites, etc.

It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

It'd be great if you could find a rules based equivalency instead of just making assumptions.
Your interpretation makes an assumption. The actual rules don't.

So we are back to definitions of words are we? A selection can be found in the oxford dictionary. A common meaning is an item chosen, so we are again back to a unit chosen for the FOC.

Is there any rule that supports the gut feeling that people have?

Cool story how someone admitted they were arguing RAI and are now saying that it's RAW.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

It'd be great if you could find a rules based equivalency instead of just making assumptions.
Your interpretation makes an assumption. The actual rules don't.

The actual rules state that troops are scoring, it is your assumption that a troops selection is not a troop. I've kindly asked for proof that a troops selection is not a troop and you have failed to provide it. You keep insisting that your opinion of what the rules state is correct without any rules based evidence. All I ask for are rules describing what a troops selection is.

The actual rules say that the troops selection from the FOC is scoring. That's been pointed out for 13 pages now.

Can you please stop obfuscating and misrepresenting that fact?

Elites are often troop selections.... is that enough to show you that troops =/= all troop selections?

A troops selection is a unit chosen from the troops section of the army list.
So to be scoring, you must be a unit chosen from the troops part of the army list(unless another rules allows units from other sections of the army list to do so) that takes up a slot on the FOC.

The question remains as it has for 13 pages.... Where is the diagram of the units in the formation section of the FOC that says they are troops selections?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 123: Controlling objectives:
You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units....

Pg 123:

Any army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart.
....The presence of any other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it.

I see no internal inconsistancies in saying that it is troops selections that are scoring, that the troops selections control objectives. That the line after uses shorthand doesn't invalidate the rule that states clearly who can score. Context is important in reading comprehension.

Please refute this with a page and paragraph reference if you are able to do so.

liturgies of blood wrote:Troops is a plural, so many troops, as in the selection of the troops or units in the army. So the selection of troops, the array of units, is scoring.

You can select or choose a plurality of items, it's funny how words work. If you disagree can you show that the following is an incorrect sentence. "My selection of seven rings."

Abandon, you see that sentence on page 123? You see how it is talking about a plural of units and says that "all the units(plural) that come from the troops(plural) selection".
It's almost as if the words on the page disagree completely with you.

If selection equals slot as you say it does then the singular means one slot, not one group of units. Perhaps a group of one or more units that take up one slot... doesn't work.

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

slight correction, you mean 'Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex through one box on the FOC.'

As I've pointed out many times now and had no argument, this is the only way to purchase units through the codex. Literally every unit purchased from the codex is from the available selections of the FOC. It does not matter if the unit ends up in a formation or primary detachment, they are all from the FOC even if they are no longer on the FOC.

rigeld2 wrote:It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

Actually you did not quote a rule that states that. You quoted a rule that says a slot can be used to make a selection. A single line that uses a word does not mean that word is forever defined by that specific use. You select targets for shooting, those are also selections. the act of making that decision is also called a selection. The options from which you have to chose is also accurately described as a selection.

Selection can mean:
-the chosen
-the act of choosing
-A range of options from which one can choose

You have 'selected' the first meaning when it really does not fit as well as further defining it as some kind of game specific term without any solid bases. The last meaning actually fits much better, creates no rules conundrums and does not assume anything.

'all the units from the troops selection of the FOC'

-From-
Where the unit originates is what matters, not what slot it currently takes up or any other such nonsense. All units purchased from the codex are accuratly described as 'from the FOC' as that is the only way to purchase units.

-The troops selection of the FOC-
As from the above we are concerned with the origins of the unit, not the end state. The unit originated as one choice among many - one of a range of troops options from which one can choose from the FOC.

Troops purchased from the codex are scouring because purchasing them from the codex means they are purchased from the FOC.

Your analysis of the word from has no basis in the rules though.
A description you make holds no weight as an argument.

The FOC details the units in your army, if the units that make up the troops selection are not scoring and it is just troops that are scoring by dint of being in the right part of the army list then you are saying that the units that are moved to the troops slot by codex rules from other areas of the army list are not able to score. Either a unit from the troops section of the army list is the only ones that can score or your interpretation is planly false and the ends are the only things that matter.

The fact it doesn't say units from the troops section of the army list or just "troops" puts another spanner in the works for that.

Could you prove that "the troops selection" cannot refer to a pick consisting of multiple units? The only group of units that take up one slot is IG platoons RAW. They still are able to be part of the troops selection so don't worry.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Your analysis of the word from has no basis in the rules though.
A description you make holds no weight as an argument.

The FOC details the units in your army, if the units that make up the troops selection are not scoring and it is just troops that are scoring then you are saying that the units that are moved to the troops slot by codex rules from other areas of the army list are not able to score. Either a unit from the troops section of the army list is the only ones that can score or your interpretation is planely false and the ends are the only things that matter.

Could you prove that "the troops selection" cannot refer to a pick consisting of multiple units? The only group of units that take up one slot is IG platoons RAW. They still are able to be part of the troops selection so don't worry.

Can you show that "troops selection" is exclusive, considering that context says that it is the same as "troops"

Yes I can. It is the only term used to describe the units that are scoring.

Which Troops does context mean, is that the units in my FOC under that heading or the heading in my army list? Seeing as the previous sentence uses the former, a reasonable reading using basic comprehension dictates that context says troop selection.

A term used once and then replaced by "troops" does not give weight to your argument.

It is a lot more solid than no rules supporting your sides tbh. It only was needed once as it defined fully who can score.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Your analysis of the word from has no basis in the rules though.
A description you make holds no weight as an argument.

The FOC details the units in your army, if the units that make up the troops selection are not scoring and it is just troops that are scoring by dint of being in the right part of the army list then you are saying that the units that are moved to the troops slot by codex rules from other areas of the army list are not able to score. Either a unit from the troops section of the army list is the only ones that can score or your interpretation is planly false and the ends are the only things that matter.

The fact it doesn't say units from the troops section of the army list or just "troops" puts another spanner in the works for that.

Could you prove that "the troops selection" cannot refer to a pick consisting of multiple units? The only group of units that take up one slot is IG platoons RAW. They still are able to be part of the troops selection so don't worry.

You're saying when the meaning of a word or term is in dispute a description of possible meanings per the oxford dictionary holds 'no weight as an argument' and only terms and words defined by the 40k rules themselves can be analyzed for purposes of determining meaning... I would have to say this argument leads to them most broken notion of the rules I have ever seen. If words are not specifically named as a mechanic or defined for 40k then use of the dictionary definitions must in fact apply or the whole of the rule book would amount to meaningless babbling.

The FOC does more than detail the units in you army. Also I never said all units from the troops section of the army list are scoring and that is not what the rule says. I said troops units purchased from the FOC are scoring and that where the unit is from matters to the rule not where the unit is. Additionally I stated all units purchased from the codex a purchased from the FOC including those in formations. You have inaccurately approximated what I said and found a problem with your own version of it. Purchasing a unit 'of troops' or a unit 'as troops' means picking a troops slot and selecting the unit in either case. This is the process for buying a troop unit for both a primary detachment as well as for a formation. The only difference being that the formation unit does not 'take up' the slot and you are permitted to use it again to purchase another unit. In either case I have demonstrated the unit is 'from the FOC'.

It is you who are claiming that 'selection' means 'slot' and that rather limits its meaning and therefore its correct uses. I simply carried the plural/singular over for you properly to demonstrate that it is not grammatically correct to allow for more than on slot in that case. Sure a selection can mean a group of choices, a single choice or a group of options. You are trying to prove it means 'unit in slot' though and in that case the plural/singular matters a great deal.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

It'd be great if you could find a rules based equivalency instead of just making assumptions.
Your interpretation makes an assumption. The actual rules don't.

The actual rules state that troops are scoring, it is your assumption that a troops selection is not a troop.

The underlined is, again, absolutely false and not what the actual rules say. You've been corrected on this a number of times in this thread.
Reported and ignored. We're done here.

. All I ask for are rules describing what a troops selection is.

I've provided that. Multiple times.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is a lot more solid than no rules supporting your sides tbh. It only was needed once as it defined fully who can score.

Yes. Only Troops control objectives, and only troops score. Page 123, under controlling objectives-
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
Strict RAW, Troops control objectives(pg 123-"The presence of other unitswithin 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."), and to score an objective it must be a scoring unit- thus Troops are scoring. The rules do not state a Troops selection control an objective, but troops. And to control an objective, a unit must be scoring. Thus, Troops are scoring units.

For example,
I have a troop from a formation within 3" an objective, with no denial units anywhere within 3". Only troops can control objectives. A troop is controlling the objective- that part of the rules has been fulfilled. But to control the objective, a unit must be a scoring unit. The unit is already in control of the objective(because it is labeled a "troop"), thus according to page 123 it must be a scoring unit.

This is what I've been trying to explain. The unit has no exception to being a scoring unit- you keep point to page 123's "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" as an exception, but it is not labeled as any sort of exception, it is merely permissive. Please provide an exclusion for Formation troops to not be scoring. But we all know it can't be done, because there is no exception that exists for Formation troops to not be scoring.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is a lot more solid than no rules supporting your sides tbh. It only was needed once as it defined fully who can score.

So other meanings taken from the same words can't possibly be the rule. Even though they are perfectly valid and fall more in line with other rules as they are stated and make more grammatical sense...

Also, nowhere in the book does it state what 'troops selection' means precisely and unless you can find that it is unseemly to claim the rules do so.

Your side also has yet to refute my point that every troops unit purchased from the codex is indeed from the FOC which is the real requirement of the rule.

Additionally no difference(for scoring purposes) has been shown between spawned termigants(scoring) and formation termigants. Rigeld in fact only proved they are identical.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The actual rules say that the troops selection from the FOC is scoring. That's been pointed out for 13 pages now.

Elites are often troop selections.... is that enough to show you that troops =/= all troop selections?

This is not true. Every instance I've seen says Elites are scoring. It never mentions "troops selections" save for one page in the BRB.

TheJugHead,
I know Choas has many HQ choices that state 'unit X is a troop choice' and these units are all elites. This was done so you could field those elites as troops, both for minimal requirements on the force organization and to allow more of these to be fielded then the default number for Elites. This also, by changing which slot they are selected for, allows them to become scoring which is very important if someone wants to field a pure Noise Marine army for example.

 thejughead wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The actual rules say that the troops selection from the FOC is scoring. That's been pointed out for 13 pages now.

Elites are often troop selections.... is that enough to show you that troops =/= all troop selections?

This is not true. Every instance I've seen says Elites are scoring. It never mentions "troops selections" save for one page in the BRB.

Yeah if you ignore CSM, Tyranids, Grey Knights...

Those are the first 3 I felt like checking. So no - your assertion is incorrect.

I've been silent on this thread because, well it is interesting enough without me.

However I do have to ask:
What was made of the sentence stating that formations 'choose' their units from the appropriate entry in the Codex?

JinxDragon wrote:
TheJugHead,
I know Choas has many HQ choices that state 'unit X is a troop choice' and these units are all elites. This was done so you could field those elites as troops, both for minimal requirements on the force organization and to allow more of these to be fielded then the default number for Elites. This also, by changing which slot they are selected for, allows them to become scoring which is very important if someone wants to field a pure Noise Marine army for example.

I stand corrected, but it doesn't deny the fact that any of those choices (Deathwing,Sternguard etc.) that are made scoring cannot score because of the RAW interpretation that it must be a "troops selection".

 thejughead wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
TheJugHead,
I know Choas has many HQ choices that state 'unit X is a troop choice' and these units are all elites. This was done so you could field those elites as troops, both for minimal requirements on the force organization and to allow more of these to be fielded then the default number for Elites. This also, by changing which slot they are selected for, allows them to become scoring which is very important if someone wants to field a pure Noise Marine army for example.

I stand corrected, but it doesn't deny the fact that any of those choices (Deathwing,Sternguard etc.) that are made scoring cannot score because of the RAW interpretation that it must be a "troops selection".

It actually does.
First of all, Deathwing and Sternguard are two different cases. I'll educate you on why you're wrong on both of them, separately.
Deathwing:

Belial makes Deathwing into a Troops choice. So when we're filling out our FOC, we are allowed to make selections from our Army List to fill a box on the FOC. Belial fills the HQ selection, and allows us to fill the Troops selections with Deathwing. Since they're Troop selections, they score.

Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

None of what I've said contradicts my position whatsoever.