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Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

So based on that where does it say that TAC Marines are Troop Selections in SM: Codex?

 thejughead wrote:

Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

So based on that where does it say that TAC Marines are Troop Selections in SM: Codex?

They're in the Troop section of the Army List.
So when you look at the rules for the FOC and go to fill a troop box, you make a selection from the Troop section of your Army List.
That is a troop selection - the unit chosen to fill a box on the FOC.

Which is what I've been saying. You're free to continue to ignore that and ask me to restate my argument, but I'll get tired of it eventually.

Great and the Tyranid Dataslate for Leviathan II states that Warrior Brood is a Troop Selection if you take the formation. You continue to ignore the rules of the Dataslate, which is an addendum to the BRB, exactly like a codex..

 thejughead wrote:
Great and the Tyranid Dataslate for Leviathan II states that Warrior Brood is a Troop Selection if you take the formation. You continue to ignore the rules of the Dataslate, which is an addendum to the BRB, exactly like a codex..

Citation needed for the underlined. I do not see "Troop Selection anywhere in the dataslate.

Correction. I do not see Troop Selection anywhere other than the rules for the Hive Commander upgrade for Hive Tyrants.

The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

 thejughead wrote:
The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

False.
It's listed under the Troop section of the Army List.
To be a Troop selection it must fill a box on the FOC.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

False.
It's listed under the Troop section of the Army List.
To be a Troop selection it must fill a box on the FOC.

That is irrelevant. A troop must merely control an objective to be a scoring unit. Pg 123 again-
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
Strict RAW, Troops control objectives(pg 123-"The presence of other unitswithin 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."), and to score an objective it must be a scoring unit- thus Troops are scoring. The rules do not state a Troops selection control an objective, but troops. And to control an objective, a unit must be scoring. Thus, Troops are scoring units whether they come from a formation or not, as long as they control an objective.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

So based on that where does it say that TAC Marines are Troop Selections in SM: Codex?

They're in the Troop section of the Army List.
So when you look at the rules for the FOC and go to fill a troop box, you make a selection from the Troop section of your Army List.
That is a troop selection - the unit chosen to fill a box on the FOC.

Which is what I've been saying. You're free to continue to ignore that and ask me to restate my argument, but I'll get tired of it eventually.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

False.
It's listed under the Troop section of the Army List.
To be a Troop selection it must fill a box on the FOC.

You keep insisting the must 'fill a box' and have yet to prove it in any way. They must be 'from the troops selection of the FOC'. That does not mean 'fill a box on the FOC' nor does it mean they must 'currently exist on FOC' it only matters that they are from there. Filling a troops selection is not a requirement by that rule, being 'from' the troops selection is.


Also, nowhere in the book does it state what 'troops selection' means precisely and unless you can show that it is a game specific term it is unseemly to claim the rules treat it as such.

Your side also has yet to refute my point that every troops unit purchased from the codex is indeed from the troops selection of the FOC which is the real requirement of the rule.

Additionally no difference(for scoring purposes) has been shown between spawned termigants(scoring) and formation termigants. You in fact only proved they are identical.

Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area? Being from the FOC is being from the list of units in your army not in the codex's list of units. I know it's hard when GW used troops as shorthand for both the units in the codex and the units in your army list but context is key and you should read the full of the sections instead of picking out one word and using it as your full argument.

The FOC rules talk about selecting units and you know what you call a group of units? The units selection. There basic english has defined Troops Selection for us.

I don't buy your quantum state theory of possibly being in a troops slot if it could be. Conjuration powers disagree with you and so does the section your misunderstanding.

The difference between spawned gants and formation gants are manifold but the first one is that spawn have permission to score, the don't exist on the foc but count as if they do in a specific area. Formation exist on the Foc in an area called formation detachment which lacks any slots.

Sinful, what does it say in MASSIVE bolded letters in the first line of the paragraph you keep going on about on page 123? Can you admit that you are wilfully ignoring that sentence or will you look at it and conceed that the rules have defined something other than what you're saying?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area? Being from the FOC is being from the list of units in your army not in the codex's list of units. I know it's hard when GW used troops as shorthand for both the units in the codex and the units in your army list but context is key and you should read the full of the sections instead of picking out one word and using it as your full argument.

The FOC rules talk about selecting units and you know what you call a group of units? The units selection. There basic english has defined Troops Selection for us.

I don't buy your quantum state theory of possibly being in a troops slot if it could be. Conjuration powers disagree with you and so does the section your misunderstanding.

The difference between spawned gants and formation gants are manifold but the first one is that spawn have permission to score, the don't exist on the foc but count as if they do in a specific area. Formation exist on the Foc in an area called formation detachment which lacks any slots.

Sinful, what does it say in MASSIVE bolded letters in the first line of the paragraph you keep going on about on page 123? Can you admit that you are wilfully ignoring that sentence or will you look at it and conceed that the rules have defined something other than what you're saying?

That sentence does nothing to contradict my statement, the statement which I might add you just did not address. How does it contradict my statement? If anything, it's an additional clarification for a subsection of units, if I was to admit that a troops selection was not just another word for troops as the entire paragraph on page 123 implies(and you have repeatedly ignored). I'll repost it again, so that you may address it at your convenience.

Page 123, under controlling objectives-
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
Strict RAW, Troops control objectives(pg 123-"The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."), and to control an objective it must be a scoring unit- thus Troops are scoring. Written in black and white. The rules do not state a Troops selection must be in control of an objective, but troops. And to control an objective, a unit must be scoring. Thus, Troops are scoring units, no matter their source.

For example,
I have a troop from a formation within 3" an objective, with no denial units anywhere within 3". Only troops can control objectives. A troop is controlling the objective- that part of the rules has been fulfilled. But if it controls an objective, it is a scoring unit. The unit is already in control of the objective(because it is labeled a "troop"), thus according to page 123 it must be a scoring unit.

There are not any exceptions to Formation troops controlling objectives, and if it is in control of an objective it is a scoring unit. This could also apply to spawned Termagants for example. Termagants are defined as troops, troops control objectives, you control an objective if a scoring unit is within 3".

Not to mention, I'm still waiting for these points to be addressed-

1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

If you admit that these are questions that you cannot answer, is not your argument wrong?

Sinful what does the bolded line say? Troops selection? Ring a bell?
"An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection of the FOC"
Then two lines later it says troops control objectives.
What does context mean to you?
What subsection of units can you possibly mean? Troops are in the Troops selection, you are not getting clarification, you are getting vernacular language that uses troops as the noun when the paragraph is talking about the units in slots in the FOC.

Your statement is obfuscating the facts and you know it. Ignoring the bolded line and what it says ignores the entire context of the paragraph and page 109.

If troops are scoring no matter their source why does the brb not say that? Why are you happy to take in all the other caveats but the bolded definition of who scores is not good enough?

1. and 2. Look at page 109 selection is the go to word for the slots on the FOC. Troops selection and troops are not the same as troops can refer to several things depending on context and troops selection refers to something specific.

3. Learn what context is.
4.I don't have to thats not how permissive ruleseyts work, you need to prove permission and there is none.
5. It is a troop just not a troops selection, again see context.
6. See question 4 and stop asking the same question to bulk out lists.
7.Do you see the chart on page 109? do you see the bolded line that says dark boxes are compulsory selections? Ok here is some magic... the troops that occupy those slots are the troops selection on the FOC.

Questions answered. Now answer mine.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Sinful what does the bolded line say? Troops selection? Ring a bell?
"An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection of the FOC"
Then two lines later it says troops control objectives.
What does context mean to you?
What subsection of units can you possibly mean? Troops are in the Troops selection, you are not getting clarification, you are getting vernacular language that uses troops as the noun when the paragraph is talking about the units in slots in the FOC.

Page 123, sixth word, "normally" "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection of the FOC". What does that context say? It obviously means that ALL scoring units are from this small subset of units in the game, right? Of course not.

Your statement is obfuscating the facts and you know it. Ignoring the bolded line and what it says ignores the entire context of the paragraph and page 109.

Exactly what your argument has been doing? The context obviously states that there are more than one source of scoring units, and the rest of the page tells you what they are- Troops. Troops are the units who control objectives- this is not limited to troops selections, as evidenced by the rest of the paragraph on page 123 your argument constantly ignores the existence of.

If troops are scoring no matter their source why does the brb not say that?

Because it does say that?

1. and 2. Look at page 109 selection is the go to word for the slots on the FOC. Troops selection and troops are not the same as troops can refer to several things depending on context and troops selection refers to something specific.

Where are more examples of troops selection within the rules? This answer does not cite any of those.

3. Learn what context is.

Let's keep this civil please, sarcasm is not needed. This is a question requiring an answer.

4.I don't have to thats not how permissive ruleseyts work, you need to prove permission and there is none.

Are you saying that a Warrior Brood is not scoring because it has not been given explicit permission to score? Because that appears to be what you're saying here.

5. It is a troop just not a troops selection, again see context.

The context says that troops are scoring.

6. See question 4 and stop asking the same question to bulk out lists.

This is not the same question as four- I'm asking for proof that a Warrior brood from a formation is not a troop.

7.Do you see the chart on page 109? do you see the bolded line that says dark boxes are compulsory selections? Ok here is some magic... the troops that occupy those slots are the troops selection on the FOC.

I see no rules explicitly stating that the boxes are troops selections. I see boxes labeled troops, but no boxes labeled selections. We are arguing strict RAW correct? Strict RAW the boxes are not labeled troops selections therefore they are not troops selections.

Questions answered. Now answer mine.

Perhaps you could try again?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area?

Are you seriously asking the difference between being from something and being in something?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Being from the FOC is being from the list of units in your army not in the codex's list of units. I know it's hard when GW used troops as shorthand for both the units in the codex and the units in your army list but context is key and you should read the full of the sections instead of picking out one word and using it as your full argument.

Your argument hinges on the word 'selection' having a specific 40k meaning that you've already admitted is not proven so hold the one word argument lecture please.
You do know that formation units are selected on the FOC right? That's how you purchase them for your army. Do you think they magically appear in your army list? No, they are selected from the FOC just like every other unit you select from the codex and if you know the meaning of the word from you know that satisfies that qualification. The fact that they do not use up a selection(take up a slot) does not change where they are from.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

The FOC rules talk about selecting units and you know what you call a group of units? The units selection. There basic english has defined Troops Selection for us.

Your way out in left field if you think that because they tell you to select units on the FOC and later refers to troops selection of the FOC that it must be talking about the ones selected as opposed to the selection from which you could choose. It really does not eliminate that as a possible correct meaning so not it has not been defined except by your narrow view.

selection
-A number of carefully chosen things
-A range of things from which a choice may be made

 liturgies of blood wrote:

I don't buy your quantum state theory of possibly being in a troops slot if it could be. Conjuration powers disagree with you and so does the section your misunderstanding.

quantum state lol. Nope. Just pointing out where units in your army come from... they're not just born there, they get there from the FOC. Its that whole selecting units for you army thing that happens for formation and primary units alike from the FOC... kinda defines those units as 'from the FOC'. It's not a quantum stated, just a blanket coverage of anything you purchase from the codex.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

The difference between spawned gants and formation gants are manifold but the first one is that spawn have permission to score, the don't exist on the foc but count as if they do in a specific area. Formation exist on the Foc in an area called formation detachment which lacks any slots.

(emphasis mine) citation required

Abandon and sinful I amn't playing this game anymore. You have yet to show any rules and are filibustering rather than arguing.

Pot / Kettle anyone?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon and sinful I amn't playing this game anymore. You have yet to show any rules and are filibustering rather than arguing.

I believe it's more you can't prove your argument with rules, but if you feel you no longer wish to argue, I understand. I'm glad we all agree now that troops are scoring.

So here are the rules in dispute from the rulebook.(I believe these are exact quotes but I don't have my rulebook on me atm so correct me if they're wrong.)

pg 123-
1: "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection from the FOC."
2: "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."

Sentence 1 tells us where scoring units 'normally' come from. The Troops selection of the FOC.

Oh so why do they normally come from there?

Well Sentence 2 tells us that only Troops can control objectives.

Ah so since only Troops can control objectives, that is why sentence 1 is true... because before dataslates existed there was only 1 other source of Troops and that was allies. So stating that 'normally' only those 6 boxes on the FOC represent the scoring units of an army makes sense because it was true and anyone reading the rules for the first time would have an easier time visualizing putting their units into boxes than in a list form.

Now we have dataslates. Those have units too though they don't have pretty boxes for them. They do however list units as 'Troops' which means we have even more sources of scoring units according to sentence 2 above. Does this contradict sentence 1?... No because sentence one does not give nor deny permission of anything. It is just clarifying where you'd usually find scoring units for your army. So arguing over whether or not Troops in a formation are 'Troops selection from the FOC' or not is irrelevant.

Yes my argument hinges on the word 'normally'. If you are following the rules to the letter (which I believe is what RAW means) then the first sentence has no bearing on playing the game because the word 'normally' makes the entire statement meaningless. I don't know why the writers wrote it nor does it matter for a RAW discussion.

For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Where they come from in the Codex is irrelevant as evidenced by those units that can be "troops choices" with HQ unlocks. For example Purifiers don't become "troops" in terms of where they are in the Codex as such but rather become "troops choices", i.e. they can be bought to fill those slots in the FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

The term "normally" is only used in the rules for scoring units to cover those times when units from other FoC slots become scoring such as "Big Guns Never Tire" making HS scoring or Pedro Kantor and the Sternguards.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Where they come from in the Codex is irrelevant as evidenced by those units that can be "troops choices" with HQ unlocks. For example Purifiers don't become "troops" in terms of where they are in the Codex as such but rather become "troops choices", i.e. they can be bought to fill those slots in the FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

The term "usually" is only used in the rules for scoring units to cover those times when units from other FoC slots become scoring such as "Big Guns Never Tire" making HS scoring or Pedro Kantor and the Sternguards.

Your in essence arguing that special rules can never break basic rules ?

Fragile wrote:
Pot / Kettle anyone?

One said has quoted rules, repeatedly.
One side has incorrectly cited rules and refuses to accept the fact that they've quoted them incorrectly - or refuses to accept that the incorrect quotes are extremely relevant.

Not pot/kettle. One side attempting to discuss honestly and being met with mocking.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Where they come from in the Codex is irrelevant as evidenced by those units that can be "troops choices" with HQ unlocks. For example Purifiers don't become "troops" in terms of where they are in the Codex as such but rather become "troops choices", i.e. they can be bought to fill those slots in the FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

The term "normally" is only used in the rules for scoring units to cover those times when units from other FoC slots become scoring such as "Big Guns Never Tire" making HS scoring or Pedro Kantor and the Sternguards.

Do you have any citations for that last sentence, because any troop being able to control an objective disagrees with you(pg 123).

"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

I don't see where "any troop" is used on Page 123?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

The main exceptions? As in, there are others, but here are two you will commonly encounter?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

This is all true. But this sentence does not give nor deny permission for Troops outside or inside the Force Organisation Chart from scoring. You have to read further to find permission.

2 sentences later... "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."

Ah, there's definitive permission. No ambiguous terms such as 'normally'.

"but only troops can control it" is obviously in the context that normally it is the troops selections that are the scoring units, or are you suggesting that Heavy Support units in Big Guns never tire are not able to control objectives and neither can Crimson Fist Sternguard with Pedro?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

The main exceptions? As in, there are others, but here are two you will commonly encounter?

There are others and they too like BGNT will have a specific rule stating that they are scoring.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"but only troops can control it" is obviously in the context that normally it is the troops selections that are the scoring units

That may be the RAI but this is a RAW discussion. Perhaps the writers did not think there would be Troops that didn't have a pretty box in the FOC and so they didn't bother clarifying? Either way it doesn't matter because RAW is RAW. The rules for Big Guns clearly state that Heavy Support choices become scoring in the rules for Big Guns. These rules override the rule on pg 123. So no I am not suggested that Heavy Support units in Big Guns never tire are not able to control objectives because the rules say they do.

Context isn't removed from RAW, you only do that when you don't have reading comprehension.

Sure but the RAW is that an army's scoring units are the ones that come from the troops selection in the FoC

I don't see how a sentence sometime later using the word "troops" in the context of being those units from the Troops selection in the FoC changes that to be units from the troops listing in the Codex.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Context isn't removed from RAW, you only do that when you don't have reading comprehension.

Well then, in context, when the BRB was written the only place troops could exist was as a 'troops selection from the FOC'. Had they known there would be more sources of Troops later on then they would have mentioned them or clarified in the rules for those Troops that they did not score. But they didn't. This is because they didn't have to because the first sentence "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection from the FOC." was intentionally ambiguous. Therefore it was not meant to be a definitive permission but rather a general statement that did not hold any weight in the rules. But now we're arguing RAI again because that is the only way to discuss a sentence like this thanks to their use of the word 'normally'. So for a RAW discussion we have to ignore this sentence entirely, otherwise we're going to go around in circles speculating what the writers intended.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"but only troops can control it" is obviously in the context that normally it is the troops selections that are the scoring units, or are you suggesting that Heavy Support units in Big Guns never tire are not able to control objectives and neither can Crimson Fist Sternguard with Pedro?

Never said that- you can control an objective by having a scoring unit within 3"(top of page 123).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

The main exceptions? As in, there are others, but here are two you will commonly encounter?

There are others and they too like BGNT will have a specific rule stating that they are scoring.

If they aren't troops you mean. Troops have exceptions to not be scoring(listed on pg 123), other types of units will have exceptions to be scoring(Big Guns Never Tire).