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 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Does anyone else not see what a giant tool the Emperor is?

Magnus "Father, Horus is going to betray you, we have to stop him"

Emperor "I told you no magic Magnus, I'm going to tell Horus to deal with you"

Magnus "But Horus is the evil one"

Emperor," nonsense, I will not even look into this accusation and assess the situation fairly, I will punish you and completely ignore the possibility that you could be right, even though it would be relatively easy to just recall Horus and yourself to earth and you could discuss this logically"

It wasn't a simple memo that Magnus sent to the Emperor, he used sorcery. Sorcery that broke the Golden Throne and almost caused a full scale daemon invasion of Terra. You'd be pretty pissed off too. I agree it was foolish to delegate the issue to Horus, but maybe he was still too pissed off to think straight?

at the same time he should have realised magnus would only risk it if it was critical

 MrBlackledge wrote:
at the same time he should have realised magnus would only risk it if it was critical

Why? Imagine you tell someone not to send you a specific type of email. Imagine that the person does it anyways, and it breaks something on your computer. Then imagine that Hell itself starts pouring out of your computer because of the email, and you are forced to spend the rest of eternity holding back the tide. Would your first thought be "Well, he probably had a good reason"?

Ah but there in lies the reason why the Emperor is a moron.
If I did not want somebody to use one of their abilities that they always use, I would take him aside and explain that I am doing some very delicate work that could be the future of mankind. If you use your powers to contact me you will cause catastrophic problems for me. In turn unless the other person is a jerk, he will say "Oh ok, I realise why this is so important, message recieved."

If however you do as the Emperor did and say "No powers, powers are bad" then you leave it up to the interpretation of the other person to decide which is the greater risk, a galaxy wide rebellion or ahering to a rule that you totally have no idea why it's there.

Magnus has no idea that he would flood the webway with Daemons, he did however know that he would be in trouble for breaking the rules. He debated for weeks over the right course of action and eventually decided that there was no other option, because as far as he could see, the threat posed by Horus had to be exposed even if it meant his own censure. Maybe it was reasonable for the Emperor to punish him anyway (it wasn't) but ignoring his message was just the move of an idiot. Not a Millenia old being who expects people to trust him to rule all of mankind.

Kor i couldnt agree more.

Orblivion i understand what you are saying but i have a comparison not too disimilar from what you are saying. a couple of year ago my friend told me about a virus he had on his computer that just downloaded porn from the internet non stop it flooded his computer. worth mentioning he lives in australia and that was pretty much our only way of communicating. after a while and countless attempts of getting it off his computer it finally took hold and slowed the computer so much it took too long to delete what was being downloaded and he gave up on it. he told me this one day when he went to an internet cafe that he couldnt send emails anymore and id have to wait for him to get his computer sorted.

anyway about a 2 weeks later i get an email from him... with the virus... the reason for the email was that his dad, my dads best friend, had sadly passed away.

i couldnt stay mad at him, even though ,as you say, "Hell itself start[ed] pouring out of your computer ".

so thats my argument for that i had to get rid of the Hard drive after a while it wasnt usable course work and everything gone music games the lot all gone. i even took it to a specialist and they had no idea how to stop it.

Yeah, we all know the Emperor is a dumbass. This was Primarchs only. Lol. Sorry, I don't see Russ as "Misunderstood". He's pretty much a rabid animal and used as such.

Horus was corrupted at his weakest point, Fulgrim was tricked, Lorgar was a dirtbag, Angron was psychotic to begin with (but never claimed to be anything other than what he was). Actually, I'd say Angron is probably the least hypocritical Primarch out there. He was the best he was at what he did. Angron was the Wolverine of 40k. And he even had the height and metal implants to prove it!! I broke the code. Angron is to Wolverine as Curze is to Batman!!

 MrBlackledge wrote:
thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

bs he knows its the same but he prefers to lie about it.

I actually hold to the probably minority view that the Emperor was not "good" but instead the reason he wanted to "starve" the gods of worship was so that he ultimately could be the only God of the universe.

godking wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

bs he knows its the same but he prefers to lie about it.

and where is your evidence supporting this? you cant just call it bs because you want it to be something different. he argues throughout that his psykers are not the same as there powers are natural and are born of fenris. this is stated by various Wolves and russ. all that shows is that they dont understand they are all the same and they all come from the same place. nowhere is there any sugggestion that that he knows they are the same and just wants to lie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Yeah, we all know the Emperor is a dumbass. This was Primarchs only. Lol. Sorry, I don't see Russ as "Misunderstood". He's pretty much a rabid animal and used as such.

Horus was corrupted at his weakest point, Fulgrim was tricked, Lorgar was a dirtbag, Angron was psychotic to begin with (but never claimed to be anything other than what he was). Actually, I'd say Angron is probably the least hypocritical Primarch out there. He was the best he was at what he did. Angron was the Wolverine of 40k. And he even had the height and metal implants to prove it!! I broke the code. Angron is to Wolverine as Curze is to Batman!!

where did i say he was misunderstood? read it again.

 MrBlackledge wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
im not a massive fan of russ to be honest but he isnt being a hypocrit he is just misunderstanding the fact that all psychic abilitys are born of the warp. all he sees is the fact that the abilities of his wolves seem Natural e.g lightning, conjuring storms out of nothing.

godking wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
thats not hypocritical thats a l;ack of understanding. to him it isnt hypocrasy because he doesnt understand that it is all the same. he sees it as natural because they shoot lightning rather that tear open holes in reality.

bs he knows its the same but he prefers to lie about it.

Gotta agree wit Blackledge on this one. I don't think Russ would so vehemently hate sorcery if he was actually aware of his own Legion using warp powers. I think his main flaw is ignorance. I'd say that he was anything but hypocritical as he is the opposite, the blunt object that never questions his orders to bludgeon aside his Father's enemies. If the Emperor ordered it, then Russ will do it.

well if Russ genuinely belives his psykers are differnt then no he's not a hypocrite. he's just a complete idiot. or more likely, WILLFULLY ignorant. the facts and proof is there in front of his eyes. to ignore it would require a purposefuly dellusion on par with holocaust denial.

The problem is the Alpha legion isn't exactly Art of War, they take pride, and at times they relish the fight and change their styles so they don't really get bored with it, and at times before their pride was hit by Gulliman they played around with different techniques due to their pride, later on to prove Gulliman wrong they begun instituting insurgencies, outfitting cells without devoted loyalty, and generally things that while they may be effective in the short run, don't work when you want to take the planet back and keep a proper hold of it.

Gulliman may have been many things, but Logistics, Planning for the aftermath, and making sure a world is properly outfitted and ready so they can defend themselves as loyalists is a primary concern for them. Alpha Legion took planets quickly, but destabilized them.

Sun ZSU

“Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”

“Hence that general is skilful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skilful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.”

“Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.”

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

The problem is the Alpha legion isn't exactly Art of War, they take pride, and at times they relish the fight and change their styles so they don't really get bored with it, and at times before their pride was hit by Gulliman they played around with different techniques due to their pride, later on to prove Gulliman wrong they begun instituting insurgencies, outfitting cells without devoted loyalty, and generally things that while they may be effective in the short run, don't work when you want to take the planet back and keep a proper hold of it.

Gulliman may have been many things, but Logistics, Planning for the aftermath, and making sure a world is properly outfitted and ready so they can defend themselves as loyalists is a primary concern for them. Alpha Legion took planets quickly, but destabilized them.

Sun ZSU

“Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”

“Hence that general is skilful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skilful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.”

“Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.”

The second one is the only one that really makes sense, the first while they are subtle and mysterious for some, they are overt and showy for others, and the third isn't true at all, they only encourage their own arrogance, not pretend inferiority.

 MrBlackledge wrote:

and where is your evidence supporting this?

A Rune Priest in Prospero Burns outright states that they are psykers.

The "natural life and death cycles on Fenris" thing is a lie perpetuated to allow them to break the rules. A Rune Priest in Fear to Tread similarly indicates that he is indeed a psyker, and he actually helps some former Blood Angel Librarians out with a psychic ritual to awaken Sanguinius.

Russ and Curze to me are the most hypocritical. Russ is hypocritical because he threw a massive fit about Pyskers and convinced the Emperor to outlaw them just to spite Magnus and then kept using them and made up some crap about Fenris. Curze is hypocritical because he uses the excuse of justice to continue his murder and torture spree.

Russ and Curze to me are the most hypocritical. Russ is hypocritical because he threw a massive fit about Pyskers and convinced the Emperor to outlaw them just to spite Magnus and then kept using them and made up some crap about Fenris. Curze is hypocritical because he uses the excuse of justice to continue his murder and torture spree.

Agree about what said about Russ but Curze did'nt do anything that the other primarchs didn't do, the Lion destroyed his homeworld when it rebelled just like Curze and Perteburo. Really the Night Lords were different because they treated theier atrocities like they were badges of honor while everyone else just pretended they didn't happen. The pre heresy Imperium was just as brutal as 40k, some accepted it like Angron and Curze, some fought against it only to become monsters themselves like lorgar, and the rest lied to themselves.

Yeah Ferrus Mannus preaching all that jive about the mastery of self and then going and getting himself killed so recklessly? That just makes his whole life look like a lie because when it came right down to it, he couldn't control that piddly weak flesh he spent his whole life trying to excise and control.

Then the IH decide he's really still alive and that they ought to cut off their arms, despite the fact that the only thing that might have kept their Primarch alive is his twin hearts?

Just that whole "Our Flesh is Weak" mantra seems pretty hypocritical, especially since they're Space Marines...

Yeah Ferrus Mannus preaching all that jive about the mastery of self and then going and getting himself killed so recklessly? That just makes his whole life look like a lie because when it came right down to it, he couldn't control that piddly weak flesh he spent his whole life trying to excise and control.

Then the IH decide he's really still alive and that they ought to cut off their arms, despite the fact that the only thing that might have kept their Primarch alive is his twin hearts?

Just that whole "Our Flesh is Weak" mantra seems pretty hypocritical, especially since they're Space Marines...

How the hell did he hang with fulgrim, it makes me think less of fulgrim. Horus Should have sent him to get Lion not some half metal freak leading a legion of half bionic freaks.

If Russ's rune priests are psykers than why whould the Emperor let him keep them? I don't believe that Leman Russ could convince the most powerful human psyker that some of his men aren't themselves psykers?

Reread what the Emperor says in his decree (A Thousand Sons). He never bans the use of psykers just the Librarius project. And even goes so far as to even ban the Librarians from ever using thier powers again.

Rune priest know they are psykers, Russ knows they are psykers and everyone else knows that they are psykers. However the Emperor never bans them.

Ahh right forgot about that.

the rune priests obviously know they are psykers they just have different names for it. but that doesnt change the fact that they believe their power comes from Fenris and not from the warp

 Stonerhino wrote:
Reread what the Emperor says in his decree (A Thousand Sons). He never bans the use of psykers just the Librarius project. And even goes so far as to even ban the Librarians from ever using thier powers again.

Rune priest know they are psykers, Russ knows they are psykers and everyone else knows that they are psykers. However the Emperor never bans them.

Well if you put it like that then technically the Thousand Sons didn't break the edict as Magnus is not a Space Marine or part of the Librarius project. Willful interpretation works both ways.
Additionally, in Fear To Tread the Wolf Lord tells the Rune Priest not to use his powers in front of the Blood Angels as they suspected him of breaking the decree.

 Stonerhino wrote:
Reread what the Emperor says in his decree (A Thousand Sons). He never bans the use of psykers just the Librarius project. And even goes so far as to even ban the Librarians from ever using thier powers again.

Rune priest know they are psykers, Russ knows they are psykers and everyone else knows that they are psykers. However the Emperor never bans them.

that REALLY doesn't make Russ seem less a hipocrit

Dorn hands down

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Dorn hands down

Shouldn't that be "hand down" if it's Dorn?

Thinking about it Magus was a hypocrite when it comes to responsibility, blaming Lorgar, Russ, the Emperor, Arhiman, everyone but himself, and was the only primarch whose legion was destroyed to just a couple hundred warriors.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Thinking about it Magus was a hypocrite when it comes to responsibility, blaming Lorgar, Russ, the Emperor, Arhiman, everyone but himself, and was the only primarch whose legion was destroyed to just a couple hundred warriors.

You forgot to add Vulkan, Corax, Ferrus and Dorn to your list of people who got there legions destroyed. And Magnus did it on purpose.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Most hypocritical Primarch? Without a doubt Dorn and Guilimium. Complaining about relatively low level atrocities committed during the Crusade but then Virus bombing half the Imperium after the heresy. Treating Alphariuous like he was a coward while at the same time hunkering down on Ultramar during the Heresy and running from Angron. The Emperor picks the Ultramarines to humiliate Lorgar for a reason, Guill might have changed history if when ordered he said to Lorgar

"i'm sorry I feel your pain and understand your anger let me help you build something that will be greater than anything i've or will ever do"

At least Dorn was their during the siege. So i'd say its Guilliman followed by Dorn.

Have you read all of the HH books?

I am current, and I just finished Scars, and almost everything you have written is wrong.

We have an unencumbered view of the thoughts of the Primarchs in the books, we KNOW that Gulliman isn't a hypocrite because he isn't motivated by spite, he actually is a Mary Sue in every sense of the world. In An Unremembered Empire...



Flagrant hypocrisy is motivated by spite and bitterness. If you want hypocrisy, you need to start looking at the villains. Plus, it isn't hypocrisy if you try to help and don't, Gulliman doesn't stay away from the siege of Terra because of hypocrisy, he doesn't show up because gak happens that stops him from being there. If any of the fluff indicates that he doesn't because he is a dick and he hangs back on purpose, then yes, he would be a hypocrite, but he is a stereotypical good-guy, and therefore his lack of action on Terra is not down to backstabbing or hypocrisy, its because he has other gak to do, they haven't fully covered it yet, but it seems as though it will be because he is busy, not because he is scheming.

In some ways (I made a thread about this ages ago) the HH has ruined it all for me about ten books back because it has put all of the conjecture to bed, but as it stands, there is no good way you can state that a Mary Sue character is essentially being a dick, when Black Library have removed all the ambiguity and basically given us plenty of dicks to pick from, and plenty of good guys to like.

Matt i cannot agree more i have just finished scars (very good book by the way) and between that and unremembered empire it really puts a lot of the characters into a new perspective