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I read a post on another site about Ratlings. The author tried to give an example of how to use Ratlings, but concluded that they were pretty useless. I disagree, and I think we need to stop dismissing ratlings and sniper weapons as not viable.

If you categorize each Imperial Guard / Astra Militarum unit into roles, the Ratlings have a niche in support/tarpit, NOT damage output. I think the tendency is to focus on the poison (4+), the rending, and the BS4, which causes IG players to cram Ratlings and other sniper troops into the roll of "damage output". Obviously this is a mistake, because they lack weight of fire, and even when they excel at wounding high toughness models, they can't beat the save most of the time, and therefore do nothing of note. They aren't good at killing things, except with lucky dice rolls.

However, Ratlings don't need a dice roll to go to ground, which grants them a 2+ cover save. They can soak up several rounds of shooting from even the heaviest fire, and they will. At 10 points per rat, you can beef up a squad to 8 or 10, and that ensures their survivability, and increases the odds of rending. So, you'd think the enemy would just ignore them, and they might, but when they aren't going to ground, the ratlings are in support mode. They can easily force pinning tests, and since the IG forces so many pinning tests already with barrage, you can ensure that the enemy is testing on several units per turn.

Not all armies get pinned. So if that's your argument, don't bring snipers, you're right, they're useless. In the right list though, ratlings and veteran snipers with stealth can grant the IG a pretty solid advantage by disabling key units.

That is all.

I'd hold off on judging ratlings until the new book comes out; then see if they got buffed similarly to Eldar Rangers.

The specifics might vary as rules change, but generally speaking, if a unit doesn't pose a meaningful threat, then it won't be shot at too often. Durability is only a useful trait if damage output is also present.

Ratlings are the cheapest massed precision weapons in the game I think.

And they're excellent in Kill Team.

Biophysical wrote:The specifics might vary as rules change, but generally speaking, if a unit doesn't pose a meaningful threat, then it won't be shot at too often. Durability is only a useful trait if damage output is also present.

This is very true. Once you go to ground, the enemy will stop shooting them.

ductvader wrote:Ratlings are the cheapest massed precision weapons in the game I think.

And they're excellent in Kill Team.

As more and more MCs come out, snipers become better, even if 2+ saves eliminate a lot of the damage output potential.

We'll also see how the IG book changes. Right now, there is no shortage of weapons in the IG armory that wound MCs on a 4+ (or better): Autocannons, multilasers, and krak grenades all do work against high toughness models, while the ubiquitous plasma and Lascannon also excel here.

So, Ratlings are the odd duck, of being specialized against targets that IG really shouldn't struggle against.

Are they troops? They should be troops even if not scoring.

Ratlings are pretty good, all things considered. Not top-tier, but not useless by any means.

At the end of the day, they need a few things to be successful. Firstly, cover, as without it they will crumple in a stiff breeze. Second, more pressing infantry-based threats. If you have 10 ratlings alone, they're going to die or be pinned, but if you have them alongside 60+ other infantry moving up, there's a good chance the Ratlings will be ignored.

100 points for 10 sniper rifles at BS4 is very good value, as that's an good chance of 2 precision hits a turn, which is enough to start hitting special weapons and upgrades. Against MEQ this won't do wonders, but for taking out IG or cultists special weapons or any other kind of low-save infantry, it's good enough. Likewise, pinning is useless against some targets, but very nice on others.

The consistent 36" inch range is nice as it means you're likely getting at least 1-2 turns of shooting before closing within small arms range, and long-range weapons aren't likely to target Ratlings. Given that IG now have an order granting precision shots as well, mass precision (aided by Ratlings) could well become a viable trick.

While the merits of sniper rifles themselves are debatable, the best way IG have to bring them is Ratlings, as at 10 points they tie in per-model cost with IS snipers but gain BS4. The trade-off is survivability, which doesn't matter as both units are pretty fragile. Veterans, on the other hand, share the same BS, but are far better off taking more powerful special weapons. PCS are best kept cheap or run with flamers, and CCS are again better given more powerful weapons or kept cheap.

The AM changes may well mean we see more Ratlings, as with Stormtroopers becoming platoons and Marbo going AWOL, Elites slots will be a lot less crowded. Ogryn and Bullgryn look to be either too expensive or too unwieldy to use well.

So to conclude: If you want snipers, take Ratlings, as they are the most effective way of doing it, and are cheap enough that even a full squad won't set you back too much.

Biophysical wrote:
... generally speaking, if a unit doesn't pose a meaningful threat, then it won't be shot at too often. Durability is only a useful trait if damage output is also present.

If the enemy doesn't find them threatening, they will allow them to stand and shoot. That's fine with me. If they're shooting at low LD, high T targets, Ratlings pose a threat.

If I didn't think I could threaten something with Ratlings, I wouldn't bring them.

If you assume that I'm misusing them, of course it looks like I'm wrong, lol

 CaptObvious wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
... generally speaking, if a unit doesn't pose a meaningful threat, then it won't be shot at too often. Durability is only a useful trait if damage output is also present.

If the enemy doesn't find them threatening, they will allow them to stand and shoot. That's fine with me. If they're shooting at low LD, high T targets, Ratlings pose a threat.

If I didn't think I could threaten something with Ratlings, I wouldn't bring them.

If you assume that I'm misusing them, of course it looks like I'm wrong, lol

How do they fare against the Tau? Which to my knowledge are the prime source of poor leadership but high value targets.

I always use 5 Ratlings in my lists. They either get ignored because I roll pathetically with them, or get targeted first thing mostly because they are the only ting in range of my opponent's weapons (since they always start closer to them)

Sadly, I have 2 problems with them.
1- They all hit and no one wounds.
2-One hit but it's a rending hit.

 CaptObvious wrote:
They can easily force pinning tests, and since the IG forces so many pinning tests already with barrage, you can ensure that the enemy is testing on several units per turn.
That is all.

Add to this the rumor (which I feel is logical enough to be expected in the new Codex) that one of the new Orders will be a split-fire order, allowing each unit of "support" ratlings to have a chance of pinning TWO units with one volley.

Again, it's just a rumor, but I think something worth fantasizing about.

 CaptObvious wrote:

If you categorize each Imperial Guard / Astra Militarum unit into roles, the Ratlings have a niche in support/tarpit, NOT damage output. I think the tendency is to focus on the poison (4+), the rending, and the BS4, which causes IG players to cram Ratlings and other sniper troops into the roll of "damage output". Obviously this is a mistake, because they lack weight of fire, and even when they excel at wounding high toughness models, they can't beat the save most of the time, and therefore do nothing of note. They aren't good at killing things, except with lucky dice rolls.

I didn't write this, you did. If you think their damage output is so unimpressive, why would your opponent waste points firing at them? If you think they're a threat, why did you write the paragraph above?

I still want a second Ratling unit, and a ten-model plastic box.

Dangit.

One temptation I think should be resisted with Ratlings is to infiltrate them close to the enemy, as this makes them often the nearest target, and is likely to hand over 1st blood and a KP.

Instead, I think you'd be better off infiltrating them on your own lines (ie. still deploy last to counter/avoid certain targets) but take advantage of the 36" range, which is more than most IG infantry. That way, you afford them the protection of being near your own units rather than out on their own, and can still make use of their 36" reach to start firing /pinning early on.

I think the new orders, namely the Pinning and Precision shot ones, will have a big effect on Ratlings. Either, they will make them redundant, or it will be a case of 'more is better'. Where one unit of Ratlings attempting to snipe a special weapon is likely to fail, the same unit and a mid-sized platoon has a much better chance. Similarly with pinning. solo ratling squads won't do too much, add in 2-3 more squads with pinning capability (mortars, platoons with orders, artillery) and you're forcing A lot of pinning checks.

 Paradigm wrote:
One temptation I think should be resisted with Ratlings is to infiltrate them close to the enemy, as this makes them often the nearest target, and is likely to hand over 1st blood and a KP.

Instead, I think you'd be better off infiltrating them on your own lines (ie. still deploy last to counter/avoid certain targets) but take advantage of the 36" range, which is more than most IG infantry. That way, you afford them the protection of being near your own units rather than out on their own, and can still make use of their 36" reach to start firing /pinning early on.

I think the new orders, namely the Pinning and Precision shot ones, will have a big effect on Ratlings. Either, they will make them redundant, or it will be a case of 'more is better'. Where one unit of Ratlings attempting to snipe a special weapon is likely to fail, the same unit and a mid-sized platoon has a much better chance. Similarly with pinning. solo ratling squads won't do too much, add in 2-3 more squads with pinning capability (mortars, platoons with orders, artillery) and you're forcing A lot of pinning checks.

I've also tried ratlings working in tandem with allied vindicaires. The Vindicare can decide the target warlord no longer has his precious invulnerable save, at which point rending hits become far more serious and the ratlings gun him down.

I'll admit it was probably pure luck, but I have shot out Horus himself this way after making good usage of bastion breachers to force his unit out of a spartan assault tank, then did what I did above and got perhaps the luckiest series of precision rends ever to kill the arch traitor. Then some Medusas took care of his escorts.

And so time traveling guardsmen and grey knights stopped the heresy before it began and caused a time paradox that needed Orikan, the clone of Tommy Wiseau, the sacrifice of a dozen mary sues, an irrational particle accelerator, and a dancing frog to fix.

Our FFG role playing sessions are weird.

With no changes ratlings look better.

25 point comissars with a 6" ld9 bubble. I wouldn't buy one for ratlings, but it's a 6" bubble so the rats can benifit from what's already going to be there.

Orders to shoot + run or splitfire.

Orders for precission hits will first appear to lower the value of rats, but players are going to get sick of giving up the dakka from frfsrf for those orders. Enter the rats.

I played against a unit of six ratlings last night and they were mildly annoying. They took out a few marines and bikes while also wounding obliterators.

I put a bit of fire into them and killed a couple, ignoring the rest as they had good cover.

A future tactic for me might be either noise marines with sonic blasters spending a turn on them or flamers in a bike or raptor unit.

Anything that ignores cover will toast them (like eldar rangers really).

I love my rats, they've done very well for me. The only time I've heard someone say ratlings are useless (in 6ed) they follow it with "MOAR VENDETTAS!"

However, I'm not too convinced on Vet snipers. Mostly because (in current dex) they offer the other special weapons at BS4, while you can get snipers on your rats. I do use them in a company command squad though, and that's worked pretty well, especially with the CCS orders.

 Kain wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
One temptation I think should be resisted with Ratlings is to infiltrate them close to the enemy, as this makes them often the nearest target, and is likely to hand over 1st blood and a KP.

Instead, I think you'd be better off infiltrating them on your own lines (ie. still deploy last to counter/avoid certain targets) but take advantage of the 36" range, which is more than most IG infantry. That way, you afford them the protection of being near your own units rather than out on their own, and can still make use of their 36" reach to start firing /pinning early on.

I think the new orders, namely the Pinning and Precision shot ones, will have a big effect on Ratlings. Either, they will make them redundant, or it will be a case of 'more is better'. Where one unit of Ratlings attempting to snipe a special weapon is likely to fail, the same unit and a mid-sized platoon has a much better chance. Similarly with pinning. solo ratling squads won't do too much, add in 2-3 more squads with pinning capability (mortars, platoons with orders, artillery) and you're forcing A lot of pinning checks.

I've also tried ratlings working in tandem with allied vindicaires. The Vindicare can decide the target warlord no longer has his precious invulnerable save, at which point rending hits become far more serious and the ratlings gun him down.

I'll admit it was probably pure luck, but I have shot out Horus himself this way after making good usage of bastion breachers to force his unit out of a spartan assault tank, then did what I did above and got perhaps the luckiest series of precision rends ever to kill the arch traitor. Then some Medusas took care of his escorts.

And so time traveling guardsmen and grey knights stopped the heresy before it began and caused a time paradox that needed Orikan, the clone of Tommy Wiseau, the sacrifice of a dozen mary sues, an irrational particle accelerator, and a dancing frog to fix.

Our FFG role playing sessions are weird.

Exalted for possibly the most epic battle story I've heard. Working with a powerful ally, a group of Hobbits improbably take out the Dark Lord and save the world. Wait a minute, haven't I seen this one before?

I ran SWS of snipers with the 5th edition codex, they worked okay, on the whole i would always get at least one shot hitting the target at least. I ran 3 cadian snipers and put in Mad Larkin for my Guants ghosts (which i ran as veterans.) They also look good, so remember kids...

Rule of cool

They are the best source of Precision shots for the Guard army, certainly, but I'm not sure they're good. This probably says more about Guard snipers than it does about Ratlings. They need some leadership support to avoid running from the get-go.

In general, I've found Precision shots much more useful for avoiding characters than for killing them. Oftentimes, a squad has a tanking character out front. Snipers let you go around the tanking character to get special or heavy weapons, which don't get LoS, and won't have the 2+ armor or invulnerable saves. When squads get whittled down, you can use precision shots to kill of the last regular dude before that might LoS the anti-tank gun hit from a tanking character.

I'm not sure how overall useful it is to use as a planned strategy, though.

Biophysical wrote:
They are the best source of Precision shots for the Guard army, certainly, but I'm not sure they're good. This probably says more about Guard snipers than it does about Ratlings. They need some leadership support to avoid running from the get-go.

In general, I've found Precision shots much more useful for avoiding characters than for killing them. Oftentimes, a squad has a tanking character out front. Snipers let you go around the tanking character to get special or heavy weapons, which don't get LoS, and won't have the 2+ armor or invulnerable saves. When squads get whittled down, you can use precision shots to kill of the last regular dude before that might LoS the anti-tank gun hit from a tanking character.

I'm not sure how overall useful it is to use as a planned strategy, though.

Actually, the best sniper weapon in the guard arsenal is the Griffon due to how barrage works and it's functional equivalent to twin linkage.

Because when you think a precision tool of assassination; you think a siege mortar.

Of course it seems that the poor thing won't be rejoining us come monday.

Biophysical wrote:

 CaptObvious wrote:

If you categorize each Imperial Guard / Astra Militarum unit into roles, the Ratlings have a niche in support/tarpit, NOT damage output. I think the tendency is to focus on the poison (4+), the rending, and the BS4, which causes IG players to cram Ratlings and other sniper troops into the roll of "damage output". Obviously this is a mistake, because they lack weight of fire, and even when they excel at wounding high toughness models, they can't beat the save most of the time, and therefore do nothing of note. They aren't good at killing things, except with lucky dice rolls.

I didn't write this, you did. If you think their damage output is so unimpressive, why would your opponent waste points firing at them? If you think they're a threat, why did you write the paragraph above?

I love you Biophysical!

Damage Output != Threat in all cases. If you pin a unit, that takes them out of the game for a round. Threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
How do they fare against the Tau? Which to my knowledge are the prime source of poor leadership but high value targets.

Any low Ld unit are great targets for sniper rifles (... and barrage, which also has pinning - cheap mortars for instance). Tau are a good target, but a really difficult opponent because they'll all but remove your 2+ cover save with marker lights. Better to hit a horde of fire warriors with a mortar. Indirect fire, pinning, very low cost. Take them out of the fight, job done.

However! Mortars and snipers are cheap, but why do that when you can template the Tau infantry from across the table. The Colossus basically removes whatever Tau sit under the template. 2-3 direct hits, and there should be no Tau infantry left.

Infantry lists are dead anyway, but any time you have Ld 8 and lower on the table, pinning is a cheap way to disable them.

 CaptObvious wrote:
Infantry lists are dead anyway,

Excuse me?

Besides Stalkers, Flyers, and Eldar...I haven't seen a single other vehicle on the board in about 7 months.

EDIT: Lie, I actually faced a LandRaider Templar army a month or so ago.



But infantry armies are the meta...at least everywhere I have seen.

Pinning is a nice thing that happens that you can take advantage of if you get lucky. It should not be the basis of a strategy, because it works too rarely.

Biophysical wrote:
Pinning is a nice thing that happens that you can take advantage of if you get lucky. It should not be the basis of a strategy, because it works too rarely.

Attacking Leadership is a debateable strategy. It should never be THE plan, but you can increase it's likelihood.

In my bug lists I take a lot of pinning stuff, aim for The Horror, Psychic Scream, and such...when I face Tau or Guard or Wolves and such.

 ductvader wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
Pinning is a nice thing that happens that you can take advantage of if you get lucky. It should not be the basis of a strategy, because it works too rarely.

Attacking Leadership is a debateable strategy. It should never be THE plan, but you can increase it's likelihood.

In my bug lists I take a lot of pinning stuff, aim for The Horror, Psychic Scream, and such...when I face Tau or Guard or Wolves and such.

Pinning en-masse may well become viable with IG, on the basis that every unit, via orders, can now be made pinning. Combine this with Ratlings, mortars and artillery, and you'ce got a pretty good chance to pin a fair amount of stuff. I'd not suggest building a list around just pinning, but on the other hand, it may end up being effective enough as a consistent trick.

UPDATE: Ratlings can now shoot AND run in the same shooting phase (must shoot first mind you) so that means deploying them close, and having them run into cover or back out of sight.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
UPDATE: Ratlings can now shoot AND run in the same shooting phase (must shoot first mind you) so that means deploying them close, and having them run into cover or back out of sight.

Jump shoot jump with sniper hobbits you say?

I like this.

Run+shoot seems good for what I suggested above, moving them back and operating at maximum range. Ratlings shoot the same as 1" or 36", so you might as well stay/move back as far as possible.