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barnowl wrote:
Does it strike anyone else odd that you can get the exact same unit, Tempestus Scions, as Troops in one Codex, MT, but as elites in another, AM, and yet you can ally them together to get Scions in both slots?

No, because in one army(Militarum Tempestus) it is a deployment of the Tempestus Scions by themselves with a Tempestus Scion Command Squad(or a Commissar Lord as the case may be) leading the force.
In the other army(Astra Militarum) those same Scions are deployed as an auxiliary asset to an AM force proper.

 purplefood wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 Klerych wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
... and Penal Legion are gone.

Out of pure curiosity.. any idea why do people mourn the Penal Legion? I know you are not in this post, just saying that they're gone, but I never understood why would anyone(again, not you) miss them and I'd really want to.

They were cool.
Not necessarily any good but they've been a pretty cool part of 40k for a while.
The Last Chancers were badass.
Again an iconic unit.

I got more of a mercenary vibe than a prison soldier vibe from them.
I don't think prisoners would be allowed to choose how they fight or their equipment.

Conscripts represent the use of prison soldiers imo.

They don't get to choose per say...
It's more like they nicked it...

That's even sillier. Aren't the prisoners heavily surveyed? I don't think the warden would let them take their stolen weapons to the battlefield.

In short, when I think of Penal Legionnairies, I think of this




The 5th ed rules, with it's it's small units of 10 men, the fact they can have varied skills and the fact they can infiltrate, makes me think more of these guys

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 Klerych wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
... and Penal Legion are gone.

Out of pure curiosity.. any idea why do people mourn the Penal Legion? I know you are not in this post, just saying that they're gone, but I never understood why would anyone(again, not you) miss them and I'd really want to.

They were cool.
Not necessarily any good but they've been a pretty cool part of 40k for a while.
The Last Chancers were badass.
Again an iconic unit.

I got more of a mercenary vibe than a prison soldier vibe from them.
I don't think prisoners would be allowed to choose how they fight or their equipment.

Conscripts represent the use of prison soldiers imo.

They don't get to choose per say...
It's more like they nicked it...

That's even sillier. Aren't the prisoners heavily surveyed? I don't think the warden would let them take their stolen weapons to the battlefield.

In short, when I think of Penal Legionnairies, I think of this

I agree that's a perfectly fine way to view them. Not all Penal Legions are run the same way and in an extended conflict they may be forced to scavenge what they can.
The commanders probably don't care, as long as their duty to the Emperor is done.

 Klerych wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
... and Penal Legion are gone.

Out of pure curiosity.. any idea why do people mourn the Penal Legion? I know you are not in this post, just saying that they're gone, but I never understood why would anyone(again, not you) miss them and I'd really want to.

Because they were a cool unit, with a distinct feeling and good background/fluff behind it.

People did not use them mostly because they were not enough cost-efficient. Veterans (and big blobs) were far too better.

Problem: Penal Legion not working.
Solution A: Fix the problem. Balance it against Veterans, thus allowing players to field something different.

The Good: Happy customers.

The Bad: It takes a small effort.

Solution B: Destroy the option. A unit is not working? Out of the Codex and forget it. After all, who cares about variety, background or coolness?

The Good: Easy and fast.

The Bad: People always complain when units are taken from the Codex.

If this codex were Imperial Guard: version 1.0, then I'd probably love it a lot more than I do. Given it's IG: Version 5.0 (I think?), it makes it harder to see units getting cut and rebalances (or in GW's case, unbalances) that you don't like.

Have people still not worked out why units are gone? It's because there were no models for them, this should not be a shock...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Have people still not worked out why units are gone? It's because there were no models for them, this should not be a shock...

There was a model for Marbo.

 purplefood wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Have people still not worked out why units are gone? It's because there were no models for them, this should not be a shock...

There was a model for Marbo.

There were models for several of them.

I want this to be an example to all those who said that people complained as badly with the nid codex as they did with all the others. Its a lie.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Have people still not worked out why units are gone? It's because there were no models for them, this should not be a shock...

Versus...



Vendetta only had a FW model...same as the Medusa, Colossus, etc. And, while the Griffon doesn't currently have a model, it used to:

I'm a guard player. That means keeping up with the guard rules as they change over time. Hate it, or love, it doesn't matter. If I didn't get the new codex, I wouldn't be a guard player.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I'm a guard player. That means keeping up with the guard rules as they change over time. Hate it, or love, it doesn't matter. If I didn't get the new codex, I wouldn't be a guard player.

Umm, yeah, we heard you in the other thread... and again when you quoted Ailaros... let me repeat my response:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I'm a guard player. That means keeping up the guard rules as they change over time. If I didn't get the new codex, I wouldn't be a guard player.

Yeah we heard it when Ailaros said it and you quoted it several pages back

If you didn't get the new codex, you could still be a guard player... just not a guard player who plays with the latest rules. One doesn't preclude the other unless your opponents won't let you play with old rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:

This weeks WD tells all about how awesome and great those Bullgryns are, but are they?

The shield ones cost too much for a cover unit. Both units are like tyranid warriors without synaps bubble for other units. If they costed 20pts less, they would be playable.

It seems to me the problem with Bullgryns is that they not only give your units a 4+ cover save.... they give any enemy unit you want to shoot at with said covered unit a 4+ save as well.

Bullgryns would make more sense in an army like Tyranids, Orks, any assaulty army really or any units that ignore the enemy cover saves, so you don't care if the enemy gains a 4+ cover save from the Bullgryns as you benefit from the 4+ save more than they do.

That doesn't really describe IG where giving a 4+ save to the enemy is just as bad as getting a 4+ save is good, potentially sometimes worse.

Still, they're better than Tyranid warriors, who with T4 have way too many things that cause them instant death.

barnowl wrote:
Does it strike anyone else odd that you can get the exact same unit, Tempestus Scions, as Troops in one Codex, MT, but as elites in another, AM, and yet you can ally them together to get Scions in both slots?

No. That was possible two books ago. Take the Grenadiers and Stormtroopers doctrines at the same time and you could have up to three units of stormtroopers in each of troops and elites. In both cases there are slight fluff differences.

 Raxmei wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Does it strike anyone else odd that you can get the exact same unit, Tempestus Scions, as Troops in one Codex, MT, but as elites in another, AM, and yet you can ally them together to get Scions in both slots?

No. That was possible two books ago. Take the Grenadiers and Stormtroopers doctrines at the same time and you could have up to three units of stormtroopers in each of troops and elites. In both cases there are slight fluff differences.

That is FOC manipulation in the same book. I had expected something more like IK or LoTD rules were the unit is still an Elite or LoW and just gets a special rule to be warlord and scoring.

 Raxmei wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Does it strike anyone else odd that you can get the exact same unit, Tempestus Scions, as Troops in one Codex, MT, but as elites in another, AM, and yet you can ally them together to get Scions in both slots?

No. That was possible two books ago. Take the Grenadiers and Stormtroopers doctrines at the same time and you could have up to three units of stormtroopers in each of troops and elites. In both cases there are slight fluff differences.

I think its possible. You can take MT Scions as Primary or Allied detachment = they can use their own orders and are troop. And you can take AM Scions which use AM orders (and not their own) and are elites. But its IMO messy and unnecesary to take both.

 Klerych wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
... and Penal Legion are gone.

Out of pure curiosity.. any idea why do people mourn the Penal Legion? I know you are not in this post, just saying that they're gone, but I never understood why would anyone(again, not you) miss them and I'd really want to.

They were a nice, fluffy unit. I did take them a few times to try to sneak in a outflanking Linebreaker for the lols. It also seemed rather sad how the unit went from the Dirty Dozen to Schaeffer, Kage, and a squad to just a squad with some wonky rules and was hoping they might get a new iteration in this book.

I always wanted to make a Savlar-like army using their profile as the base for Guardsmen rather then regular infantry to represent a much more unruly and Hive Gang-style kind of Guard army, but they were way too over-costed, became redundant compared to Commissar blobs, had no frag grenades back when FC meant something, wonky rolls for their rules and couldn't even take a flamer.

Guys relax all the stuff that got cut out that you miss like penal legion, special characters, etc will be available later via data slate as an additional purchase.

That's actually not very comforting...or even confirmed for that matter.

And you can tell that some things aren't coming back.

One of the things that they summarily removed from the codex was outflanking. Nobody but scout sentinels can do it anymore. Not Al'Rahem, not creed, not harker. Even if they brought penal legionnaires back, they wouldn't have outflanking, because no one does anymore.

But without outflanking, what was the point of penal legionnaires? A single special rule isn't enough to resurrect them, especially since they don't have models and weren't that popular.

It seems like penal legionnaires are gone for good. At least, until next codex.

 Ailaros wrote:
And you can tell that some things aren't coming back.

One of the things that they summarily removed from the codex was outflanking. Nobody but scout sentinels can do it anymore. Not Al'Rahem, not creed, not harker. Even if they brought penal legionnaires back, they wouldn't have outflanking, because no one does anymore.

But without outflanking, what was the point of penal legionnaires? A single special rule isn't enough to resurrect them, especially since they don't have models and weren't that popular.

It seems like penal legionnaires are gone for good. At least, until next codex.

Outflanking you say? What about the 1/6 of games where D3 units get it?

It's a 1 in 6 chance.

Meanwhile, creed, harker, al'rahem, penal legionnaires, and stormtroopers, valkyries, and vendettas all lost it as a standard upgrade. The kind you had a 6 in 6 chance of getting.

I know, I'm just saying that it wasn't "summarily removed"
-TG

If FW makes the heavy vehicles that were taken away...doesn't that mean you can still use them?

 poppa G wrote:
Sounds lame to me.

Unfortunately, I agree with this.
I wanted to like it. But the more I thought about it, the less I liked it. It's str is just too low for me.

Maybe spamming them might help?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
If FW makes the heavy vehicles that were taken away...doesn't that mean you can still use them?

In theory? Yes.

As a practical matter however, many stores/clubs/events do not allow FW stuff and many individual players have a stick up their butts about FW in general.

For the record, I like the TauRocks model. (I hate the name however. I'll spell it like that for the rest of my days)

I think the AM ability to put down enough pie plates to wipe out and enemy army on turn 1 it a bit much though...

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
For the record, I like the TauRocks model. (I hate the name however. I'll spell it like that for the rest of my days)

I think the AM ability to put down enough pie plates to wipe out and enemy army on turn 1 it a bit much though...

Do many people pronounce it Tau? I have never heard it as anything other than Taw.

Besides the character drops
And rough riders
AM is a kick-ass dex

 Njal Stormpuppy wrote:
Besides the character drops
And rough riders
AM is a kick-ass dex

And the loss of three arty units.
And the units that weren't buffed that still really need help.
And the units that were nerfed that didn't need to be.
And the lack of fluff/generally bad fluff.

There's definitely some good stuff going on in the book, but I don't think I'd call it kick-ass. I like that Russes were improved overall, as I'm a treadhead, but that doesn't make it a great codex in my eyes.

To each their own, but having a codex that can compete at top tier does not necessarily make it a good codex or kick-ass codex.

Pretty surprised at the hate for the Wyvern. In this current day and age of 40k there is a lot of T3 on the table (behind Aegis Lines, mostly), and even though it will give them an armor save there is still a lot of re-rollable-wounds-on-3 dice to be had from a couple of these things.

Tau, Eldar, the gigantic Nid units we see cropping up, other Guard armies, and even Daemons (the troops, anyway) will probably take a lot of wounds from these things. I could see them being effective just by sheer volume of saves.

Though I also suspect next edition a rules change to barrage to make them faster to roll, but that is pure speculation.

Also surprised how many people are mad about penal legion. Never seen one fielded in 9 years of play, didn't think anyone would miss them.