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Other factions field a tank platoon
Imperial Guard bring the whole company

 Polonius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Depends what you mean by "do anything?"

Yes, in that it allows you to choose him.

No, in that it would not allow you do anything you could to before.

Please explain how a model with no leadership value (note - not 0 but a complete lack of Leadership) is eligible to be Warlord without that rule.

Having a leadership isn't a requisite to be a warlord, as you stated. It's part of the process for selecting a warlord, but it's not an actual requirement.

There are two concepts here. What is eligible to become a warlord, and how a warlord is chosen.

Warlords, IIRC, must be HQ choices that are characters. That's all that is required to serve as Warlord.

the Selection process then cuts directly to the highest leadership, with the player chosing among those models with the highest.

Now, if they did not have the rule that you could chose them, they would never be warlords, because they would never have the highest LD.

As a theoretical aside, I'm not sure what would happen without that rule, if you simply took two Tank Commanders. Practically speaking, two models with no LD are each the highest, but not mathematically speaking.

There's one more requirement for a HQ, that has been ignored: If Tank Commander can be your Warlord, does that include scenarios, when he isn't part of your Primary Detachment? My Chaos Space Marines could use a tougher, Leman Russ riding Leader.
The Question isn't serious, but implications of ignoring all other restrictions of being Warlord is.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It is confusing, discuss it with your opponent. Your Ld-less Character Tank(Yes Rigeld vehicles can be Characters, and the Tank commander/pask is specifically character) has the ability to become warlord. If you just have a tank commander as HQ he would already be warlord being the HQ character with the highest Ld(nonexistent), So we can assume the rule means the tank can be warlord when it is not the only HQ. Bjorn the fell handed is another Vehicle character HQ that can be warlord when there are nbo other HQs, so we have precedent for this.

Note that 0 is different from nonexistent. According to nos, he is LD - which, according to the BRB (p3) is synonymous with 0.

I would not apply a Ld- or 0 to a vehicle, they simply lack the stat.

Start applying Ld-/0 and you have to start taking vehicles off the field as destroyed the second you deploy it as it has T-/0, or W-/0.

In short Nos is wrong, not having the stat in your profile at all does not equate to -/0.

I'm guessing that nos was referring to the statline posted for the Tank Commander/Pask (not his tank), which has a "-" for every stat except for BS.

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm guessing that nos was referring to the statline posted for the Tank Commander/Pask (not his tank), which has a "-" for every stat except for BS.

Which is One of the Stupidest entries I have ever seen. They should have handled it Like the IA1 Armoured Company entry(just list the figgin tanks)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It is confusing, discuss it with your opponent. Your Ld-less Character Tank(Yes Rigeld vehicles can be Characters, and the Tank commander/pask is specifically character) has the ability to become warlord. If you just have a tank commander as HQ he would already be warlord being the HQ character with the highest Ld(nonexistent), So we can assume the rule means the tank can be warlord when it is not the only HQ. Bjorn the fell handed is another Vehicle character HQ that can be warlord when there are nbo other HQs, so we have precedent for this.

Note that 0 is different from nonexistent. According to nos, he is LD - which, according to the BRB (p3) is synonymous with 0.

I would not apply a Ld- or 0 to a vehicle, they simply lack the stat.

I'm not. Please quote the profile from page 92 for the Tank Commander.
You're saying the LD stat doesn't exist. He says the profile includes a LD -.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm guessing that nos was referring to the statline posted for the Tank Commander/Pask (not his tank), which has a "-" for every stat except for BS.

Which is One of the Stupidest entries I have ever seen. They should have handled it Like the IA1 Armoured Company entry(just list the figgin tanks)

... so because it's stupid it shouldn't apply? That's a great argument </sarcasm>

 Felmid wrote:
Ok my Tank Commander question that I want to throw into this mess is:
As stated in the HQ section, A TC “must” take a LR and “must” take at least 1-2 other LR tanks. So if the TC and his 1-2 additional tanks are considered a HQ choice, does this mean that you could potentially field 15 LR battle tanks in your army? (Given you chose two TC as both of your HQ choices.)

30 if you're playing double force org and playing in an apocalypse sized game without using apoc rules...

OK then this is what happens when you take a Tank Commander: You pay 30 Points and then Pay for your Leman Russ chosen as the Tank Commanders Tank, you then Pay for a second to third Leman russ in that squadron.

You now have a Leman Russ that is chosen as the commanders tank that gets Character added to it, has BS, and can be chosen as your warlord. This is all following the rules under "Tank Commander"

The "Tank Commander" unit Entry has no model itself so you just pay the points and follow the bestiary rules and then while deploying your army you also place your "Tank Commander" Unit entry model on the field and immediately remove him.

The Tank Commander Unit Entry model, and his Profile have no bearing on the rest of the game, in fact he is neither a model nor a unit since he has no unit type.


Oh, I almost forgot to mention: There are no Tank Orders since they are on the Tank Commander, and not the Tank Commander's Tank.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Tank Commander Unit Entry model, and his Profile have no bearing on the rest of the game, in fact he is neither a model nor a unit since he has no unit type.

Actually he does have a Unit Type - Tank, Heavy (Character)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The "Tank Commander" unit Entry has no model itself so you just pay the points and follow the bestiary rules and then while deploying your army you also place your "Tank Commander" Unit entry model on the field and immediately remove him.

The Tank Commander Unit Entry model, and his Profile have no bearing on the rest of the game, in fact he is neither a model nor a unit since he has no unit type.


Oh, I almost forgot to mention: There are no Tank Orders since they are on the Tank Commander, and not the Tank Commander's Tank.

Sigh...

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Tank Commander Unit Entry model, and his Profile have no bearing on the rest of the game, in fact he is neither a model nor a unit since he has no unit type.

Actually he does have a Unit Type - Tank, Heavy (Character)

Sorry Typing while dealing with Children.

So you bring 2-3 Leman Russes and 1 Extra Tank model(does not matter what it looks like there is no official model) that immediately gets removed for having T0 and W0 for every Tank Commander you bring to the field. There are no Tank Orders but your Designated Leman Russ gets all the rest of the benefits.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Tank Commander Unit Entry model, and his Profile have no bearing on the rest of the game, in fact he is neither a model nor a unit since he has no unit type.

Actually he does have a Unit Type - Tank, Heavy (Character)

Sorry Typing while dealing with Children.

So you bring 2-3 Leman Russes and 1 Extra Tank model(does not matter what it looks like there is no official model) that immediately gets removed for having T0 and W0 for every Tank Commander you bring to the field. There are no Tank Orders but your Designated Leman Russ gets all the rest of the benefits.

So let's pretend you actually want to discuss things.
Pure RAW - yes. Just like Wraith-style units can't shoot or assault. Or, we don't have any rules to determine how to combine profiles.

Minimum-required-obvious-RAI - Wraith-style units can shoot. The models stay on the board and there are Tank orders. Please cite your basis for assuming that while the BS confers, no other stat does and that LD is still non-existent.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The "Tank Commander" unit Entry has no model itself so you just pay the points and follow the bestiary rules and then while deploying your army you also place your "Tank Commander" Unit entry model on the field and immediately remove him.

The Tank Commander Unit Entry model, and his Profile have no bearing on the rest of the game, in fact he is neither a model nor a unit since he has no unit type.


Oh, I almost forgot to mention: There are no Tank Orders since they are on the Tank Commander, and not the Tank Commander's Tank.

Sigh...

Sigh indeed. Here are the exact rules:
Leman Russ Commander: A Tank Commander starts the game in a Leman Russ tank, leading a Leman Russ Squadron. Note that any type of Leman Russ can be taken as the Tank Commander’s vehicle, and that it can have any upgrades usually available to that type of tank. The Tank Commander’s tank is a character, has Ballistic Skill 4 and can be chosen as your army’s Warlord. If his tank is Wrecked or suffers an Explodes! result, the Tank Commander is killed.

A Tank Commander and his Leman Russ Squadron count as an HQ choice for the entire of the battle. The Tank Commander’s Leman Russ cannot leave the unit or join another unit, even if the rest of his squadron are destroyed.

So does the Russ have:
1) both stats and is immediately removed from play?
2) Just the vehicle stats with the special rules and we ignore the stupid non-vehicle profile and everything works just fine?
3) Bring the extra Tank Commander Tank that starts in the leman Russ and is immediately itself removed destroyed as soon as it is deployed(with the Tank orders rule being a waste of ink)?


The highlighted in the rule is why the tank has BS4 without the stupid non-vehicle profile

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The "Tank Commander" unit Entry has no model itself so you just pay the points and follow the bestiary rules and then while deploying your army you also place your "Tank Commander" Unit entry model on the field and immediately remove him.

The Tank Commander Unit Entry model, and his Profile have no bearing on the rest of the game, in fact he is neither a model nor a unit since he has no unit type.


Oh, I almost forgot to mention: There are no Tank Orders since they are on the Tank Commander, and not the Tank Commander's Tank.

Sigh...

Sigh indeed. Here are the exact rules:
Leman Russ Commander: A Tank Commander starts the game in a Leman Russ tank, leading a Leman Russ Squadron. Note that any type of Leman Russ can be taken as the Tank Commander’s vehicle, and that it can have any upgrades usually available to that type of tank. The Tank Commander’s tank is a character, has Ballistic Skill 4 and can be chosen as your army’s Warlord. If his tank is Wrecked or suffers an Explodes! result, the Tank Commander is killed.

2) Just the vehicle stats with the special rules and we ignore the stupid non-vehicle profile and everything works just fine?

Why are we required to ignore the entirety of the non-vehicle profile?
Or is that another assumption you're making?

Because the profiles existence gives us 1 of 2 options:

1) Go by pure RAW, Have a Tank Commander Vehicle tank start inside of the Leman Russ Exhibit-style and get immediately removed as a casualty for having a -/0T and W, giving up Tank Orders

2) Go by the clearly intended RAI(and making the unit playable) and ignore the profile/unit entry just applying the rules(and giving the Tank commanders Tank Tank Orders in the same manner we changed some of its stats)

Already fairly expensive Pask becomes doubly expensive and worthless when you use the RAW since the other 2 benefits he brings also get removed at deployment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
2) Go by the clearly intended RAI(and making the unit playable) and ignore the profile/unit entry just applying the rules(and giving the Tank commanders Tank Tank Orders in the same manner we changed some of its stats)

And why is it, quote, "clearly intended" that only one stat moves over when there's another stat that's very important rules-wise for a Warlord?

Already fairly expensive Pask becomes doubly expensive and worthless when you use the RAW since the other 2 benefits he brings also get removed at deployment.

Which isn't what I'm saying to do at all. Yay strawman?

Because that statline removes that model from play the moment it hits the field. Please re-read page 3 of the BRB, Zero level Statistics

And Pask is a tank commander, that is exactly what you are saying to do by applying the non-vehicle statline.

But I didn't include pask to argue, I included him to help illustrate the point that you can only use him by ignoring the non-vehicle statline.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Because that statline removes that model from play the moment it hits the field.

In its entirety... The BS is included, but that's the only part of it you're willing to include ... why?

Regardless, let's move past this because it's not that relevant.
Your last statement before this tangent was:

So we can assume the rule means the tank can be warlord when it is not the only HQ. Bjorn the fell handed is another Vehicle character HQ that can be warlord when there are nbo other HQs, so we have precedent for this.

Bjorn is a specific exception - and I'm not sure he can be warlord when there are other HQs around (since the FAQs are down...).
You need specific allowance to do what you're asserting, and you don't have it.

Funny how often some ruin what could be a helpful discussion with their constant harping .

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Because that statline removes that model from play the moment it hits the field. Please re-read page 3 of the BRB, Zero level Statistics.

Actually, I brought this up in another thread (and was corrected). In order to be removed those stats have to be reduced to 0. Otherwise, Artillery guns would be removed immediately.

 Happyjew wrote:
Regarding Iron Will.

If Yarrick is killed in the bottom of the turn, and you have no other models on the board, you would lose.

If Yarrick is killed in the top of the turn, and you have no other models on the board, you have 1 chance to keep the game going.

I don't think it has any bearing when Yarrick is killed. You are specifically told not to remove Yarrick from the table unless and until he fails his Iron Will roll. Speaking incredibly technically, this would also mean he remains locked in close combat if that was where he was killed, preventing the enemy unit from consolidating as they are still in base contact with an enemy model and in fact forcing them to make pile-in moves to his corpse if no other models are in the combat. Only when he got up would he be moved out of base contact and thus combat.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Because that statline removes that model from play the moment it hits the field. Please re-read page 3 of the BRB, Zero level Statistics.

Actually, I brought this up in another thread (and was corrected). In order to be removed those stats have to be reduced to 0. Otherwise, Artillery guns would be removed immediately.

Ld- would be reduced to 0. You would just do better to accept that the rules on page 3 are basic rules, whereas other unit can have advanced rules that pg 3 doesnt cover.

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Because that statline removes that model from play the moment it hits the field. Please re-read page 3 of the BRB, Zero level Statistics.

Actually, I brought this up in another thread (and was corrected). In order to be removed those stats have to be reduced to 0. Otherwise, Artillery guns would be removed immediately.

Ld- would be reduced to 0. You would just do better to accept that the rules on page 3 are basic rules, whereas other unit can have advanced rules that pg 3 doesnt cover.

No, LD - is zero. It's not reduced to zero.

Your trying to make a difference where there really is none.

What happens if you enfeeble a Artillery piece then, does it got to -1

Fragile wrote:
Your trying to make a difference where there really is none.

What happens if you enfeeble a Artillery piece then, does it got to -1

No. Maledictions cannot lower a stat below 1.
There is a difference - you're ignoring facts to seem correct.

It's like saying a Tervigons STR is lowered to 5. No, it just is 5.

Fragile wrote:
Your trying to make a difference where there really is none.

What happens if you enfeeble a Artillery piece then, does it got to -1

So being reduced to, and being already at, are equivalent statements?

No, not even close. I assume you remove artillery immediately then?

What's the point of having a minimum range on the Manticore's Storm Eagle Rockets if it can only fire indirectly? Am I missing something?

There isn't one.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, it doesn't. It simply alters the rules saying vehicles can't be warlords.
It doesn't contradict the LD requirement whatsoever.

Where is the rule saying that vehicles cannot be warlords? In fact, I think that vehicles can be warlords even before the AM codex, as rolling a 6 on the "Personal Traits" chart would indicate.

Warlords must be characters.
Vehicles cannot be characters.
Warlords must have the highest LD value.
Vehicles cannot have LD values.

Bjorn was the only vehicle that could be a Warlord, per the FAQ.
We had this discussion about tank companies prior to the newest list that came out.

AM creates a specific exception giving permission for the Tank Commander to be a Warlord, but it does not say that he's exempt from the LD comparison.

Except that tank commanders are characters, and longstrikes a character, and chronus is a character...

...and there is an FAQ stating vehicles can't be the warlord. Is long strike an HQ character? Does he have specific allowance to be the warlord?