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 Happyjew wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Speaking of the Array some more, I had a thought: is it eligible to use for Overwatch? It's being fired by models embarked in a transport which is the only way (without special wargear/options) that a vehicle can Overwatch.

Just one of those "huh" moments is all.

Probably not. It is still a vehicle weapon, it just requires embarked models to be fired. Of course the FAQ will probably allow it.

Probably right on both counts, assuming FAQs are coming. I sent it into the FAQ email just for fun anyways.

Be kind of impressive if they could. It'd partially justify the points bump (well that and the fact that Chimeras now look like moving rave parties with the lasers going everywhere and the heavy bass sounds of the heavy bolter )

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Be kind of impressive if they could. It'd partially justify the points bump (well that and the fact that Chimeras now look like moving rave parties with the lasers going everywhere and the heavy bass sounds of the heavy bolter )

Now that is an image I cannot get out of my head. Laser of different colours shooting every direction.



Can you see the Chimeras in the back?

 Happyjew wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Be kind of impressive if they could. It'd partially justify the points bump (well that and the fact that Chimeras now look like moving rave parties with the lasers going everywhere and the heavy bass sounds of the heavy bolter )

Now that is an image I cannot get out of my head. Laser of different colours shooting every direction.



Can you see the Chimeras in the back?

Yup, all two of them.

 Ghaz wrote:
Just because the Laser Array requires three embarked models in order to fire does not invalidate the precedent set by the Gauss Flayer Array. Needing models in order to fire the weapon doesn't change how or where that weapon can fire.

It isn't that it requires 3 guardsmen to fire, it is that each guardsman can fire a single lasgun from the array.

Like I said it is a pretty complex rule and I would definitely agree with LOS being required from each gun(firing) since they do fire separately.

Gauss Flayer Array: Single weapon Firing as several Gauss Flayers where the LOS is drawn from any barrel(It is exactly like a hurricane Bolter).

Lasgun Array: 2 sets of 3 lasguns that can be fired individually by the passengers

 Happyjew wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Be kind of impressive if they could. It'd partially justify the points bump (well that and the fact that Chimeras now look like moving rave parties with the lasers going everywhere and the heavy bass sounds of the heavy bolter )

Now that is an image I cannot get out of my head. Laser of different colours shooting every direction.



Can you see the Chimeras in the back?

When you're basing your rules interpretations on Jean Michelle Jarre concerts you know you're in trouble

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Just because the Laser Array requires three embarked models in order to fire does not invalidate the precedent set by the Gauss Flayer Array. Needing models in order to fire the weapon doesn't change how or where that weapon can fire.

Except that the two are not similiar and thus the gauss flayer array cannot be used as a precedent.

One is a weapon, the other is a special rule. The gauss flayer array has NO bearing here.

How aren't they similar? Aside from being reclassified as a Special Rule instead of a Weapon, and aside from requiring embarked passengers, they're practically identical.

Aside from two key elements of the weapons, they're entirely similar.

No, the only similarity is that they fire multiple small arms. The Gauss Flayer is like the Hurricane bolter, but it is not like the lasgun array.

As for overwatching them, they're a special rule that allows passengers to fire a lasgun. Is one allowed to overwatch with a special rule? If so, then yes.

It may be a special rule governing how the array is fired but they are clearly weapons being fired. It's definitely a shooting attack from the vehicle by the passengers.

The question really comes down to how GW wants to split the hair between it being the passengers shooting (as per the overwatching from transports rules), and it being the vehicle's weapon (as per the overwatch rules concerning vehicles). It can easily go either way honestly.

Now I don't see it being too overpowered, but I don't really have an answer for how this will all work. I sent it into GW to try and make the FAQ at least.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It may be a special rule governing how the array is fired but they are clearly weapons being fired. It's definitely a shooting attack from the vehicle by the passengers.

The question really comes down to how GW wants to split the hair between it being the passengers shooting (as per the overwatching from transports rules), and it being the vehicle's weapon (as per the overwatch rules concerning vehicles). It can easily go either way honestly.

Now I don't see it being too overpowered, but I don't really have an answer for how this will all work. I sent it into GW to try and make the FAQ at least.

Hmm. Here's another thing. Assuming one CAN use the weapons on overwatch, could one theoretically overwatch three different times? IF you get charged in one flank, you use that side's lasgun arrays, then you use the other sides, then you overwatch the third out the top hatch?

I'm iffy about that. It stinks of tau target locks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thread's been updated to include as many questions as have been presented. I'm not prepared to include the warlord tank problem because we do not have a clear cut answer there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It may be a special rule governing how the array is fired but they are clearly weapons being fired. It's definitely a shooting attack from the vehicle by the passengers.

The question really comes down to how GW wants to split the hair between it being the passengers shooting (as per the overwatching from transports rules), and it being the vehicle's weapon (as per the overwatch rules concerning vehicles). It can easily go either way honestly.

Now I don't see it being too overpowered, but I don't really have an answer for how this will all work. I sent it into GW to try and make the FAQ at least.

Hmm. Here's another thing. Assuming one CAN use the weapons on overwatch, could one theoretically overwatch three different times? IF you get charged in one flank, you use that side's lasgun arrays, then you use the other sides, then you overwatch the third out the top hatch?

I'm iffy about that. It stinks of tau target locks.

I have a feeling everything would have to overwatch at the same target at the same time

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It may be a special rule governing how the array is fired but they are clearly weapons being fired. It's definitely a shooting attack from the vehicle by the passengers.

The question really comes down to how GW wants to split the hair between it being the passengers shooting (as per the overwatching from transports rules), and it being the vehicle's weapon (as per the overwatch rules concerning vehicles). It can easily go either way honestly.

Now I don't see it being too overpowered, but I don't really have an answer for how this will all work. I sent it into GW to try and make the FAQ at least.

Hmm. Here's another thing. Assuming one CAN use the weapons on overwatch, could one theoretically overwatch three different times? IF you get charged in one flank, you use that side's lasgun arrays, then you use the other sides, then you overwatch the third out the top hatch?

I'm iffy about that. It stinks of tau target locks.

I have a feeling everything would have to overwatch at the same target at the same time

The thing I was thinking about is that it's three different iterations of shooting, so the unit is not overwatching once, it's overwatching three times, coupled with the fact that a tank is never locked in combat.

Is it possible to give the death mask of Ollanius or Kurov's aquilla to my tank commander?

VladtheVostroyan wrote:
Is it possible to give the death mask of Ollanius or Kurov's aquilla to my tank commander?

They can't take Heirlooms of Conquest. So no.

VladtheVostroyan wrote:
Is it possible to give the death mask of Ollanius or Kurov's aquilla to my tank commander?

No.

Better question for lasgun arrays:
Who do they fire with, Chimera, or embarked unit?
It is the embarked unit that fires them, but then we are specifically told the arrays may fire at different targets from the other Chimeras weapons(But not told they can fire at a separate target from the embarked unit using fire points).

So since all firing from a single unit is simultaneous, and you have a Rhino on either side of the chimera with 2 plasma guns you want to fire on one, and the multilaser on the other; which ones contents can you shoot the arrays at?
Choices are:
a) Arrays are Chimera-slaved, you shoot the units plasma guns and pop the rhino first, then poop the other rhino with the mulilaser and shoot the marines in the plasma-popped rhino with the arrays
b) Arrays are unit-slaved, you shoot the multilaser and pop the rhino, then pop the other rhino with the plasmas while shooting the multi-laser popped marines with the Array
c) They can shoot at neither Rhinos contents because because they are in some grey "both units" shooting
d) They can shoot at either rhinos contents because they have a separate shooting all on their own.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Better question for lasgun arrays:
Who do they fire with, Chimera, or embarked unit?
It is the embarked unit that fires them, but then we are specifically told the arrays may fire at different targets from the other Chimeras weapons(But not told they can fire at a separate target from the embarked unit using fire points).

So since all firing from a single unit is simultaneous, and you have a Rhino on either side of the chimera with 2 plasma guns you want to fire on one, and the multilaser on the other; which ones contents can you shoot the arrays at?
Choices are:
a) Arrays are Chimera-slaved, you shoot the units plasma guns and pop the rhino first, then poop the other rhino with the mulilaser and shoot the marines in the plasma-popped rhino with the arrays
b) Arrays are unit-slaved, you shoot the multilaser and pop the rhino, then pop the other rhino with the plasmas while shooting the multi-laser popped marines with the Array
c) They can shoot at neither Rhinos contents because because they are in some grey "both units" shooting
d) They can shoot at either rhinos contents because they have a separate shooting all on their own.

I would resolve it simultaneously with the unit's shooting, like a Tau unit with target locks. Makes things easier.

I would resolve it simultaneously with the carried infantry unit's shooting, as the guns are fired by models in the carried infantry units, even if they use the Chimera's BS.

The question is, can each array target a different target, as implied by the last sentence of the rule?

I presented the Question knowing which way I would go with, and you guys did not disappoint why it belongs in this thread.

Now, personally I would go with it being a Chimera-unit weapon; this viewpoint allows it to use all of its rules without having to make logical leaps between what is written and what makes it playable.

1)The rules for separate Targeting Between the Arrays and anything else is entirely off of the Chimera weapons.
2)It fires as if it were a Chimera weapon(Vets lose a point of BS when "firing" the arrays), with special rules.
3)And the rules are written to preclude models that fire the array or are going to fire the array from firing out of the top hatch(if it would fire with the unit this would be unnecessary).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I presented the Question knowing which way I would go with, and you guys did not disappoint why it belongs in this thread.

Now, personally I would go with it being a Chimera-unit weapon; this viewpoint allows it to use all of its rules without having to make logical leaps between what is written and what makes it playable.

1)The rules for separate Targeting Between the Arrays and anything else is entirely off of the Chimera weapons.
2)It fires as if it were a Chimera weapon(Vets lose a point of BS when "firing" the arrays), with special rules.
3)And the rules are written to preclude models that fire the array or are going to fire the array from firing out of the top hatch(if it would fire with the unit this would be unnecessary).

OTOH, it specifically says "Up to six models from the embarked unit ... may fire one lasgun each..."

The Chimera does not fire the guns, even if it does use the Chimera's ballistic skill. This means that if you had five models in the back of the chimera, you could only fire five of the lasguns even if no one at all is using the fireports.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I presented the Question knowing which way I would go with, and you guys did not disappoint why it belongs in this thread.

Now, personally I would go with it being a Chimera-unit weapon; this viewpoint allows it to use all of its rules without having to make logical leaps between what is written and what makes it playable.

1)The rules for separate Targeting Between the Arrays and anything else is entirely off of the Chimera weapons.
2)It fires as if it were a Chimera weapon(Vets lose a point of BS when "firing" the arrays), with special rules.
3)And the rules are written to preclude models that fire the array or are going to fire the array from firing out of the top hatch(if it would fire with the unit this would be unnecessary).

OTOH, it specifically says "Up to six models from the embarked unit ... may fire one lasgun each..."

The Chimera does not fire the guns, even if it does use the Chimera's ballistic skill. This means that if you had five models in the back of the chimera, you could only fire five of the lasguns even if no one at all is using the fireports.

Problem with that is that then there is no allowance to fire at any targets other than what the unit fires at. You are only allowed to target a unit different from the chimeras other weaponry.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I presented the Question knowing which way I would go with, and you guys did not disappoint why it belongs in this thread.

Now, personally I would go with it being a Chimera-unit weapon; this viewpoint allows it to use all of its rules without having to make logical leaps between what is written and what makes it playable.

1)The rules for separate Targeting Between the Arrays and anything else is entirely off of the Chimera weapons.
2)It fires as if it were a Chimera weapon(Vets lose a point of BS when "firing" the arrays), with special rules.
3)And the rules are written to preclude models that fire the array or are going to fire the array from firing out of the top hatch(if it would fire with the unit this would be unnecessary).

OTOH, it specifically says "Up to six models from the embarked unit ... may fire one lasgun each..."

The Chimera does not fire the guns, even if it does use the Chimera's ballistic skill. This means that if you had five models in the back of the chimera, you could only fire five of the lasguns even if no one at all is using the fireports.

Problem with that is that then there is no allowance to fire at any targets other than what the unit fires at. You are only allowed to target a unit different from the chimeras other weaponry.

Is that a problem?

Yes, there is no allowance to fire at any targets other than that which your Embarked unit Fires on, So you cannot fire both the arrays at 2 separate targets, And we fall back to 2 Targets from the Chimera(if awakened by a tech priest) and 1 target from the Unit(including the arrays at that target)

Let's re-write its wording, quickly.

Here's how I would personally write the rule:

Instead of firing out the fire points, a model may fire one of the lasguns on one of the lasgun arrays along the flanks of the chimera. In this way, up to 6 embarked models may fire a lasgun because of these arrays. Each of the two arrays (consisting of three lasguns each) may fire at a separate target to one another, as well as the Chimera's shooting and the shooting of the squad inside the Chimera. Note that, this shooting is always resolved at BS3 (regardless of the actual BS of the firer, although the tank still snap shoots when the passengers would be forced to make snap shots) and may be fired, even if the Chimera moved farther than 6" that turn.

I would then personally add the addendum "The lasgun arrays may be fired on overwatch, as they are manned by embarked passengers.", but I didn't add that because I know it's up for contention.

That re-write still makes it unit fired. This is mine:

Lasgun Arrays: A Chimera has two separate arrays of three lasguns – one array located above each side of its hull. The Chimera may fire one or more lasgun from each from these lasgun arrays, provided up to 6 models from the embarked unit are not using the Chimera’s Fire Points this turn. To represent the unusual nature of these weapons, use the Chimera’s Ballistic Skill for these shots – the lasgun arrays can shoot at this Ballistic Skill regardless of how far the Chimera has moved. If the Chimera has suffered a Crew Stunned or Crew Shaken result, the lasgun arrays can only make Snap Shots. Lastly, each array may shoot at a different target to the Chimera’s other weaponry, though all lasguns in the same array must shoot at the same target.

It is only a slight rearrangement of the lasgun array firing rule that clarifies the chimera is firing, not the unit.

One slight modification to your clarification. Change "... provided up to 6 models from the embarked unit are not using the Chimera’s Fire Points this turn..." to "... one lasgun for each model in the embarked unit that are not using the Chimera's Fire Points this turn..."

I would agree.

So this came up over in Natfka's comment section in a recent article and I want to explain why it's wrong and doesn't work just to get it out there.

The idea was using Power of the Machine Spirit on a Leman Russ in a unit with a Tank Commander then using the "Gunners, Kill on Sight" order the TC has to fire at three targets.

Firstly it doesn't work because of a sequence of events issue comes up: namely (as per the first paragraph on page 28) Orders are issued and completely resolved "at the start of the Shooting Phase", the Engineseer meanwhile has to forgo a Shooting Attack to use his ability to Awaken the Machine Spirit, which means he goes at a later point during the same phase.

Secondly there is the issue of of how shooting attacks are resolved, namely (as per page 12 of the core rulebook) you must complete the sequence of nominating a unit to shoot, choosing a target, rolling to hit, wound and then allocating wounds and removing casualties before any other unit can do anything. So you can't shoot the commander's tank then use Awaken the Machine Spirit then shoot the other two tanks.

So basically, if your Tank Commander is issuing Orders the Engineseer can't Awaken Machine Spirit on the unit (well he CAN but it does nothing, they've already completed their shooting attack, so just have him restore a hull point instead) and the fact that I had to point out both of these facts to more than one person made me feel it was worth addressing in full here just in case.

I would agree with that assessment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I would agree with that assessment.

The fact that I had to explain the orders thing THEN explain the shooting rules THEN explain BOTH was why I felt it needed to be addressed because it seemed like people just weren't getting how it all works.

Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

I don't have time tonight to read that, Kel if you're happy that you've reached a concensus and you can garner a bit of support, give me a short answer and I'll include it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maxurugi wrote:
Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

Yes.