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 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maxurugi wrote:
Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

Yes.

Could you explain that answer with a rule? Frankly, i was hoping for that answer, but i still need to show my opponents why an Enginseer can do that.

Page 78, embarked units. You need to measure a range so havce permission to use the hull to do so. You do not need LOS for AtMS, so have no restrictions based on LOS (as you cannot use LOS out of a fire point for anything other than shooting / shootig attack, and while AtMS is in place of a shooting attack it isnt itself shooting)

 Maxurugi wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maxurugi wrote:
Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

Yes.

Could you explain that answer with a rule? Frankly, i was hoping for that answer, but i still need to show my opponents why an Enginseer can do that.

Sorry mate, I was just giving you a quick answer.

The rule simply says a tank within 12". you do not need line of sight, although I would measure it out of the actual fire point of the chimera, since that seems most correct.

Worth mentioning is AtMS does NOT work for sentinels, nor does it work for flyers it ALSO does not work for tauroxes - it only works for tanks.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

Sorry mate, I was just giving you a quick answer.

The rule simply states he needs to be able to target a tank within 12", right?
The chimera has firepoints, which means the enginseer can see out of the tank and thus, use the power.
If it were in a vehicle that had no firepoints and was not open topped - a razorback, for example, - he could not PotMS any tank BUT the razorback he was being carried in.

Erm, those arent actually the rules - an embarked model is not on the table, and only has permission to use firepoints / open topped for drawing LOS when shooting.

However from memory nothing about AtMS requires the enginseer to have LOS, so right result, wrong reasoning...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:

Sorry mate, I was just giving you a quick answer.

The rule simply states he needs to be able to target a tank within 12", right?
The chimera has firepoints, which means the enginseer can see out of the tank and thus, use the power.
If it were in a vehicle that had no firepoints and was not open topped - a razorback, for example, - he could not PotMS any tank BUT the razorback he was being carried in.

Erm, those arent actually the rules - an embarked model is not on the table, and only has permission to use firepoints / open topped for drawing LOS when shooting.

However from memory nothing about AtMS requires the enginseer to have LOS, so right result, wrong reasoning...

If you have a look now, I Checked the rules and changed my comments to suit the right reasoning. AtMS does not seem to suggest it needs LoS to be used.

To Answer your question in short, OP (asker? I don't know), Yes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Page 78, embarked units. You need to measure a range so havce permission to use the hull to do so. You do not need LOS for AtMS, so have no restrictions based on LOS (as you cannot use LOS out of a fire point for anything other than shooting / shootig attack, and while AtMS is in place of a shooting attack it isnt itself shooting)

That sounds familiar, but i can't find that on page 78. Are you talking about the update 1.5? If so, it's only referring to "area of effect" wargear, which the Enginseer's special rule is not.

Do you need to measure a range to or from the unit? In which case you measure to the hull of the vehicle.

Where exactly does it say that?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I don't have time tonight to read that, Kel if you're happy that you've reached a concensus and you can garner a bit of support, give me a short answer and I'll include it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maxurugi wrote:
Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

Yes.

Short version: because of when Orders happen and when the Engineseer uses his special rules you can't Awaken the Machine Spirit on a unit of Leman Russes that is also using the split fire order to shoot at three different targets.

My apologies for diggin so deep, but i just want to know the following:

Assuming an Enginseer is in a Chimera, can he buff any vehicle other than the Chimera?

And the most important question: Where exactly does it say he can (or can't)? Because he certainly can't as long as i can't show my opponents the rule that permits doing so.

So far, it has been said that according to p. 78, when embarked units need to measure a range, they can do so from the hull of the transport. Well, i can't find that on p 78; the only similar thing i found is in the update, but it's referring to area off effect wargear, so it doesn't affect the Enginseer's special rule.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I don't have time tonight to read that, Kel if you're happy that you've reached a concensus and you can garner a bit of support, give me a short answer and I'll include it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maxurugi wrote:
Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

Yes.

Short version: because of when Orders happen and when the Engineseer uses his special rules you can't Awaken the Machine Spirit on a unit of Leman Russes that is also using the split fire order to shoot at three different targets.

Is this another issue? I thought you twow ere talking about the chimera.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I don't have time tonight to read that, Kel if you're happy that you've reached a concensus and you can garner a bit of support, give me a short answer and I'll include it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maxurugi wrote:
Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

Yes.

Short version: because of when Orders happen and when the Engineseer uses his special rules you can't Awaken the Machine Spirit on a unit of Leman Russes that is also using the split fire order to shoot at three different targets.

Is this another issue? I thought you twow ere talking about the chimera.

It's something I've run into elsewhere that I felt needed addressing because it came up and I had more than one person try and tell me that I was wrong about how the rules of the game worked so they could have their combo.

Just like how I seem to keep having to address the fact (obviously not here but in general) that Orders are given and resolved at the start of the Shooting Phase. Seems some people skipped that first paragraph on the page concerning orders.

 Maxurugi wrote:
So far, it has been said that according to p. 78, when embarked units need to measure a range, they can do so from the hull of the transport. Well, i can't find that on p 78; the only similar thing i found is in the update, but it's referring to area off effect wargear, so it doesn't affect the Enginseer's special rule.

brb78 wrote:f the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

Last sentence, first paragraph under the "Embarking" sub heading.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I don't have time tonight to read that, Kel if you're happy that you've reached a concensus and you can garner a bit of support, give me a short answer and I'll include it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maxurugi wrote:
Can an Enginseer use Awaken the Machine out of a Chimera?

Yes.

Short version: because of when Orders happen and when the Engineseer uses his special rules you can't Awaken the Machine Spirit on a unit of Leman Russes that is also using the split fire order to shoot at three different targets.

Is this another issue? I thought you twow ere talking about the chimera.

It's something I've run into elsewhere that I felt needed addressing because it came up and I had more than one person try and tell me that I was wrong about how the rules of the game worked so they could have their combo.

Just like how I seem to keep having to address the fact (obviously not here but in general) that Orders are given and resolved at the start of the Shooting Phase. Seems some people skipped that first paragraph on the page concerning orders.

Do... do I need to include this in the thread? I mean, it seems like it's just an issue with lack of comprehension, not any rules ambiguity.

If you want. I just felt stating it for future reference in case it came up was a good idea.

My bad, it seems i've just been blind. There's nothing questionable about the rule text, i just couldn't find it.

I've got one a rules query. Lets say for what ever reason you've got Yarrick (or a lord commissar) in a squad that has already been assigned a commissar. You fail a moral check and chose to summarily execute one of your models. Which model does the execution? Yarrick (or the lord commissar) or the assigned commissar? The rule states that the commissar will never execute himself however it says nothing about him executing other commissars.

You could potentially run into an issue where a commissar is executing Yarrick or vise versa (depending on if you roll a 1 or 2).

You do not evoke the rule on a per commisar basis, so you can never select a commisar to execute - no matter which one you pick it will always be "the" commisar.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
If you want. I just felt stating it for future reference in case it came up was a good idea.

And now I'm trying to explain to B&C how Orders are supposed to work while they quote the relevant section that says when you resolve orders. Good times.

So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

 AtoMaki wrote:
So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

No, it says they choose the model you shoot instead. You can't target a non-existent model so he's going to have to kill -someone-. Likely one of your special/heavy weapon models.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

No, it says they choose the model you shoot instead. You can't target a non-existent model so he's going to have to kill -someone-. Likely one of your special/heavy weapon models.

Yeah, but what if he doesn't choose anyone? He can do that, since the rule describes this case (when nobody was executed) at the end.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

No, it says they choose the model you shoot instead. You can't target a non-existent model so he's going to have to kill -someone-. Likely one of your special/heavy weapon models.

Yeah, but what if he doesn't choose anyone? He can do that, since the rule describes this case (when nobody was executed) at the end.

The rule has already been activated and someone has to die. The Commissar isn't putting the gun away until he's shot someone.

Seriously, when targetting a model in the unit you need to target a model in the unit not "nobody" because "nobody" is not part of the unit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

No, it says they choose the model you shoot instead. You can't target a non-existent model so he's going to have to kill -someone-. Likely one of your special/heavy weapon models.

Yeah, but what if he doesn't choose anyone? He can do that, since the rule describes this case (when nobody was executed) at the end.

The rule has already been activated and someone has to die. The Commissar isn't putting the gun away until he's shot someone.

Seriously, when targetting a model in the unit you need to target a model in the unit not "nobody" because "nobody" is not part of the unit.

OK, now I see the Commissar screaming at the Nids that they have to wait to run at them because he cannot decide which of his men to shoot.

 Happyjew wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

No, it says they choose the model you shoot instead. You can't target a non-existent model so he's going to have to kill -someone-. Likely one of your special/heavy weapon models.

Yeah, but what if he doesn't choose anyone? He can do that, since the rule describes this case (when nobody was executed) at the end.

The rule has already been activated and someone has to die. The Commissar isn't putting the gun away until he's shot someone.

Seriously, when targetting a model in the unit you need to target a model in the unit not "nobody" because "nobody" is not part of the unit.

OK, now I see the Commissar screaming at the Nids that they have to wait to run at them because he cannot decide which of his men to shoot.

At two Guardsmen in a scuffle: "STOP FIGHTING SO I CAN SHOOT ONE OF YOU!"

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I don't have time tonight to read that, Kel if you're happy that you've reached a concensus and you can garner a bit of support, give me a short answer and I'll include it.

Sorry, Shor answer on what?

If it is the Orders + Enginseer thing, then the short answer is:
An enginseer cannot awaken a vehicle that receives the Tank Commander order "gunners, Kill on sight" to target 3 separate units, The vehicle will have finished it's shooting via the order before the techpreist is able to awaken the vehicle(And a techpriest awakening a vehicle first denies any orders that turn).

If it is the Chimera and Lasgun arrays:
Lasgun arrays are part of the chimera's shooting, it is the only way for the rules to work as written.


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 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

No, it says they choose the model you shoot instead. You can't target a non-existent model so he's going to have to kill -someone-. Likely one of your special/heavy weapon models.

Yeah, but what if he doesn't choose anyone? He can do that, since the rule describes this case (when nobody was executed) at the end.

"provided a Model was executed" means that you have used the rule. Execution itself is optional, once invoked a model will be executed.

I haven't seen this one asked :

Do the Officer of the Fleet and Master of Ordinance work while embarked on a transport?

Yes. Why wouldn't they?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
So, if I fumble the 3+ with Summary Execution, can my opponent choose 'nobody' and make the squad fail the test since nobody was removed?

No, it says they choose the model you shoot instead. You can't target a non-existent model so he's going to have to kill -someone-. Likely one of your special/heavy weapon models.

Yeah, but what if he doesn't choose anyone? He can do that, since the rule describes this case (when nobody was executed) at the end.

"provided a Model was executed" means that you have used the rule. Execution itself is optional, once invoked a model will be executed.

Pretty much what I was trying to get at, though said better. Once the player invokes the rule someone gonna die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
I haven't seen this one asked :

Do the Officer of the Fleet and Master of Ordinance work while embarked on a transport?

Officer of the Fleet's ability doesn't have anything to keep him from using his ability from inside a vehicle (or a building), and as long as the Master of Ordnance has access to a Fire Point he can use his ability as it's a shooting attack.

Thanks a bunch! So next question I am assuming MoO would get Preferred enemy on his Shooting attack if he is in the same squad as an Aquila?