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It was interesting to read that piece of insanity, it would of have even less of a reception here.

This has apparently been settled other places, but I like Dakka. Why do I need a 6 to hit for PS to take affect with the "Take Aim" order? With such an interpretation that makes The Emperor's Benediction useless doesn't it? The character has precise shot on a 6 already. Or would the two work differently?

They work the same. You don't need a 6 for Precision Shots on Take Aim.

It is well and truly mind boggling, but the Rule as Written does appear that way.

That's what I thought but it caused a very nasty argument in my local group that likely caused a permanent rift between players. I'd also like to point out, that's not what the spoilers say in the OP.

It has to be a typo, it makes no sense from either a Balance or Narrative point of view.

Perhaps. I'm sure the inevitable FAQ will clarify. In the meantime: Pew pew.

Sarge wrote:
This has apparently been settled other places, but I like Dakka. Why do I need a 6 to hit for PS to take affect with the "Take Aim" order? With such an interpretation that makes The Emperor's Benediction useless doesn't it? The character has precise shot on a 6 already. Or would the two work differently?

Emperors Benediction technically does nothing, it has the special rule precision shots which the character it is bought for already has. This is often house ruled to not require a 6 so the gun does something.

Take Aim specifically grants the precision shot rule, which requires a 6 to hit.

Scout Sgt. Telion's shooting attacks are precision shots, which is the term used to express a 6 rolled to hit under the precision shots special rule.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I

7. Shooting then issuing an order to shoot

Spoiler:

Illegal because orders take place at the start of the turn, before any models may voluntarily shoot.

Unless the unit is shooting as a result of receiving an Order. This did get mentioned but thought it was worth pointing out in direct relation to #7.

Spellbound wrote:A commissar's execution rule says when a test is failed, he shoots someone and it's treated as having been passed.

So shooting or charging a squad of guard that are falling back with a commissar = you make them rally?

Shooting yes, charging no. Reason being that a unit that you shoot at and cause 25% casualties will automatically fail a Morale test and allow the Commissars rule to kick in. However, when you charge a fleeing unit, they take a Regroup test, which is NOT a Morale test.

JinxDragon wrote:They are part of the unit for all Rule purposes.
I just have to ask though, I have not seen the new book, if the Medic still gives Feel No Pain to the entire unit?

Yes, it does.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sarge wrote:
This has apparently been settled other places, but I like Dakka. Why do I need a 6 to hit for PS to take affect with the "Take Aim" order? With such an interpretation that makes The Emperor's Benediction useless doesn't it? The character has precise shot on a 6 already. Or would the two work differently?

Emperors Benediction technically does nothing, it has the special rule precision shots which the character it is bought for already has. This is often house ruled to not require a 6 so the gun does something.

Take Aim specifically grants the precision shot rule, which requires a 6 to hit.

Scout Sgt. Telion's shooting attacks are precision shots, which is the term used to express a 6 rolled to hit under the precision shots special rule.

Your interpretation of the rule isn't supported anywhere in the BRB or the AM codex.

farrenj wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sarge wrote:
This has apparently been settled other places, but I like Dakka. Why do I need a 6 to hit for PS to take affect with the "Take Aim" order? With such an interpretation that makes The Emperor's Benediction useless doesn't it? The character has precise shot on a 6 already. Or would the two work differently?

Emperors Benediction technically does nothing, it has the special rule precision shots which the character it is bought for already has. This is often house ruled to not require a 6 so the gun does something.

Take Aim specifically grants the precision shot rule, which requires a 6 to hit.

Scout Sgt. Telion's shooting attacks are precision shots, which is the term used to express a 6 rolled to hit under the precision shots special rule.

Your interpretation of the rule isn't supported anywhere in the BRB or the AM codex.

And, more relevantly, is explicitly refuted by the ebook and ibook versions, both of which supersede the BRB and both of which completely remove any mention of 6's from the precision shot special rule.

Even the BRB does not -require- precision shots to be on 6's, no matter what some people try insist. Only that characters get them on 6's.


But again. It's irrelevant. The codex has defined the Universal Special Rule Precison Shot and it's got no rolling 6's anywhere in it.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

The codex has defined the Universal Special Rule Precison Shot and it's got no rolling 6's anywhere in it.

Couldn't find it, page reference please?

 don_mondo wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

The codex has defined the Universal Special Rule Precison Shot and it's got no rolling 6's anywhere in it.

Couldn't find it, page reference please?

It's not in the printed version. epub and ibook have it in the rules reference section.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

The codex has defined the Universal Special Rule Precison Shot and it's got no rolling 6's anywhere in it.

Couldn't find it, page reference please?

It's not in the printed version. epub and ibook have it in the rules reference section.

I'm looking at my iBook codex right now. It says I need 6's

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

farrenj wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sarge wrote:
This has apparently been settled other places, but I like Dakka. Why do I need a 6 to hit for PS to take affect with the "Take Aim" order? With such an interpretation that makes The Emperor's Benediction useless doesn't it? The character has precise shot on a 6 already. Or would the two work differently?

Emperors Benediction technically does nothing, it has the special rule precision shots which the character it is bought for already has. This is often house ruled to not require a 6 so the gun does something.

Take Aim specifically grants the precision shot rule, which requires a 6 to hit.

Scout Sgt. Telion's shooting attacks are precision shots, which is the term used to express a 6 rolled to hit under the precision shots special rule.

Your interpretation of the rule isn't supported anywhere in the BRB or the AM codex.

And, more relevantly, is explicitly refuted by the ebook and ibook versions, both of which supersede the BRB and both of which completely remove any mention of 6's from the precision shot special rule.

Even the BRB does not -require- precision shots to be on 6's, no matter what some people try insist. Only that characters get them on 6's.


But again. It's irrelevant. The codex has defined the Universal Special Rule Precison Shot and it's got no rolling 6's anywhere in it.

AM Codex, Take aim order: "All Models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule."
BRB page 63, first sentence of the Precision Shots Special rule: "If any of your characters shots roll a 6 to-hit, these are precision shots."

There was another thread on this question several weeks back which showed 2 diferent interactive electronic versions(which I do not own, so the 1 version refutes nothing, I go by what is written in my book and that is that the Take Aim order gives the special rule and the Special rule states a 6 to-hit is required) 1 version left off the first sentence, the other keeps it.

The Glossary at the back of the AM codex does not replace the Precision shots Special rule in the BRB, it defines what a Presicion shot is. If it did, then every shot from every character in the AM codex is a "Precision Shot" and the Emperors Benediction still does nothing since the same result is achieved with a Plasma pistol with a roll of 4 to hit


Also this exact portion of these questions was handled in the first few pages of this very thread.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

AM Codex, Take aim order: "All Models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule."
BRB page 63, first sentence of the Precision Shots Special rule: "If any of your characters shots roll a 6 to-hit, these are precision shots."

There was another thread on this question several weeks back which showed 2 diferent interactive electronic versions(which I do not own, so the 1 version refutes nothing, I go by what is written in my book and that is that the Take Aim order gives the special rule and the Special rule states a 6 to-hit is required) 1 version left off the first sentence, the other keeps it.

The Glossary at the back of the AM codex does not replace the Precision shots Special rule in the BRB, it defines what a Presicion shot is. If it did, then every shot from every character in the AM codex is a "Precision Shot" and the Emperors Benediction still does nothing since the same result is achieved with a Plasma pistol with a roll of 4 to hit


Also this exact portion of these questions was handled in the first few pages of this very thread.

One important preface to this.

Characters do not have a 'precision shot' special rule. Never did, never will, never have, don't. There is a subheading about precision shots in the character's subheading that details that character's get a precision shot on a 6. And then describes the mechanics of a precision shot.

This is because precision shot was never treated as an applicable rule up until that point. It was just part of the mechanics. That's why sniper rifles do not have the precision shot special rule even though they get precision shots on 6's. Assuming that there is a BRB weapon-applicable special rule for precision shots is a misconception.

AM codex arrives. Suddenly, precision shot can be listed as a rule for infantry and for weapons! Wonderful. It's now officially a special rule.

The epub comes with this:

“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

That is 100% of the quote, nothing missing.

This is why the pistol has it as a special rule even though it can only ever go on characters. The rule makes all shots auto-allocate.

The sniper dosen't have it because it needs to roll 6's.
The Advanced Targetting System in the Tau codex required 6's, does not have the special rule.
The BRB Precision Shots rule itself only states, "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots." Then goes on to define what a Precision Shot does. It does not say that Precision Shots can only happen on a 6.



It's crazy, but both order and pistol do not need 6's.

How would a plasma pistol get precision shot on a 4+? The Emperor's Benediction is certainly no plasma pistol.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
It's crazy, but both order and pistol do not need 6's.

iBook version has it different.
6's are required.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
It's crazy, but both order and pistol do not need 6's.

iBook version has it different.
6's are required.

Ah, so it is just the epub without it.


But no. 6's are not required. 6's generate them for characters with no further stipulation or demands. 6's generate free precision shots for characters. And then it tells you what a precision shot is.

It does not say that 'if you have precision shots any roll of a 6 may be allocated.'
It says if you roll a 6 as a character you have a precison shot. Precision shots are allocated.

You'll note the ibook is copy-pasted from the BRB, presumably because of laziness, whilst the epub writes a new and tidy rule to avoid any potential confusion.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
It's crazy, but both order and pistol do not need 6's.

iBook version has it different.
6's are required.

Ah, so it is just the epub without it.


But no. 6's are not required. 6's generate them for characters with no further stipulation or demands. 6's generate free precision shots for characters. And then it tells you what a precision shot is.

It does not say that 'if you have precision shots any roll of a 6 may be allocated.'
It says if you roll a 6 as a character you have a precison shot. Precision shots are allocated.

The order states they have a Special Rule, called "Precision Shot"
It then lists the rules for this Special Rule, starting with a requirement for 6's on the hit roll.

Yes it mentions characters. It's original use was a character rule. You could follow strict RaW and claim it can't apply to non-characters, in the same way you can claim Wraithguard can't shoot because they don't have eyes (line of sight rule states it's draw from the models eyes).
Going by strict RaW leads to a very broken game. It's safe to assume the word "character" can be replaced by "model".

You'll note the ibook is copy-pasted from the BRB, presumably because of laziness, whilst the epub writes a new and tidy rule to avoid any potential confusion.

I'd be more inclined to say they did a bit of sloppy editing on the ePub, missed out part of a rule and caused more confusion.

 grendel083 wrote:
The order states they have a Special Rule, called "Precision Shot"
It then lists the rules for this Special Rule, starting with a requirement for 6's on the hit roll.

Yes it mentions characters. It's original use was a character rule. You could follow strict RaW and claim it can't apply to non-characters, in the same way you can claim Wraithguard can't shoot because they don't have eyes (line of sight rule states it's draw from the models eyes).
Going by strict RaW leads to a very broken game. It's safe to assume the word "character" can be replaced by "model".

That would only apply if rolling a 6 were included in the process of the precision shot, which it is not. There's a clear punctuation break between the two.

The rule could be rewritten, without any change to the meaning or function, with the first line at the end.

Allow me to re-state; It does not say that if you have precision shots you can allocate hits on a roll of a 6.

It says that characters that roll a 6 to hit have a precision shot. It THEN defines precision shots. The actual definition of precision shots never demands a 6 or says only to-hit rolls of a 6 are precision shots ever. You may try and gloss over the fact that the two sentences are grammatically distinct but the English language does not.



"Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters. (If any of your character's shots roll a 6 to hit, these are precision shots.) ”

Is identical in meaning, in the english language, to;

" If any of your character's shots roll a 6 to hit, these are precision shots. Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters."




Which brings us back to the BRB subheading under the characters section of the rules.

First, it gives you a condition by which a precision shot happens.

Second, it defines a precision shot.

Third, in Astra Militarum, we get new conditions under which a precision shot happens, including as a special rule.

The definition of a precision shot in mechanics and function begins, in the BRB and ibook, in the second sentence of the subheading.

Sarge wrote:
How would a plasma pistol get precision shot on a 4+? The Emperor's Benediction is certainly no plasma pistol.

Under the claim that the Precision shots in the Epub glossary supersedes the BRB version; the Epub version drops the first sentence and characters have the special rule.

Brachiaridos: if Precision shots is not a special rule(that characters have) then "Take Aim" does absolutely nothing, it give the ordered unit a Special rule that does not exist. Also the Emperors Benediction does nothing since it also has a special rule that does not exist.

My Good Kommissar,
It doesn't exist....

That has to be the core of the problem surrounding this 'Special Rule,' the fact that it was originally designed to be nothing more then a property of (character). Another group would of re-written the entire Rule before using it in a way that applies to many more situations then it's original intention, but this is Game Workshop we are writing about. So while the rule functioned well enough as a property of being a character, the fact it does not work well enough to be applied outside of that narrow focus should be expected. Rule as Written: Take Aim and Specialized Weapons with this Rule do absolutely nothing, because they can only be evoked in situations involving characters and characters already have this 'Special Rule' without orders or equipment.

It will need House Rules to simply function, so why not different Rules for what happens when it is on a Weapon and when it is on a Model?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sarge wrote:
How would a plasma pistol get precision shot on a 4+? The Emperor's Benediction is certainly no plasma pistol.

Under the claim that the Precision shots in the Epub glossary supersedes the BRB version; the Epub version drops the first sentence and characters have the special rule.

Brachiaridos: if Precision shots is not a special rule(that characters have) then "Take Aim" does absolutely nothing, it give the ordered unit a Special rule that does not exist. Also the Emperors Benediction does nothing since it also has a special rule that does not exist.

No, the epub drops the first sentence and the Emperor's Benediction and Take Aim! have the special rule. Characters still just get it on 6's in the same way that sniper rifles just get it on 6's.

Characters do not, never have, and never are said to have the precision shot special rule, stop pretending they do. Show me one sentence, anywhere in any book, that reads 'characters have the precision shot special rule'


>It was initially an advanced rule in shooting mechanics
>AM made it a universal special rule
>ebub and ibook contain a listing of it as a special rule- one copy-pasted text from the characters subheading (and with a needless additional sentence), and one written up properly.

It's a special rule that exists in the digital but not printed versions and not in the BRB. But codex still overrules BRB, and we must refer to the most recent version we have.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
That would only apply if rolling a 6 were included in the process of the precision shot, which it is not. There's a clear punctuation break between the two.

As you can see from the image I posted, we seem to have two things going on.

First we have the Special Rule "Precicion Shot".
The take aim order states they gain this rule. "...have the Precicion Shot Special Rule."

Just bellow is a description of a Special Rule, called "Precicion Shot"
It then describes a process in which a shot becomes a Precision Shot.

So we have a Special Rule, and a process for shots. Two things going on.
One requires 6's to trigger the other.
And note it's the Special Rule that the order grants, and that line about needing 6's is under the heading of the Special Rule "Precicion Shot". It's part of that rule.

This is going stricktly off the codex, not the BRB. Since there seems to be a conflict in rules, the codex takes priority.

Edit: Just to stress the point. The "Take Aim" order does NOT say the units shots are Precision Shots. If it did you'd be correct.
Instead it says the gain the Precision Shot Special Rule.
That rule requires 6's to alter the shots.

 grendel083 wrote:
So we have a Special Rule, and a process for shots. Two things going on.
One requires 6's to trigger the other.
And note it's the Special Rule that the order grants, and that line about needing 6's is under the heading of the Special Rule "Precicion Shot". It's part of that rule.

This is going stricktly off the codex, not the BRB. Since there seems to be a conflict in rules, the codex takes priority.

Nope.

We have a special rule. And it seems you need a lesson in what the English language means. Allow me to break this down for you.

"If any of your characters' shots roll a 6 to hit, these are precision shots."

We begin with the subject of the sentence. The character. More specifically, any of your characters. This sentence establishes the subject of itself, and it is any of your characters. Subjects in English grammar are words, phrases, and clauses that perform the action of or act upon verbs. Simple, yes?

Step 1 down, whew!

So what do we have next? We have our subject. We also have out condition! Roll a 6 to hit. Simple enough, I shouldn't need to describe that one, right? The subject has acted and has rolled a 6 to hit, our if clause is satiafied. So we move on to the bit after the comma, what does rolling a 6 to hit with precision shots mean?

".., these are precision shots"

So if your characters, the subject, roll a 6, the condition, these rolls are precision shots. Makes sense! What this means is that any roll of a 6, is a precision shot.

Allow me to emphasize that. Any roll of a 6, is a precision shot.

So any roll of a 6 on your characters is a precision shot, right? Simple. If subject A preforms action B it becomes special rule C.

But this does not mean that B is equal to C. Precision shot is not demanded to require a roll of a 6 by this sentence. Precision shot is never even hinted to require a roll of a 6. Rolling a 6 on a character is simply an optional entry condition for precision shot. I can't stress this enough. It's an inclusive condition that does not equate to the only condition. Even as it's listed in the ibook, or in the BRB.

That sentence makes no demands on precision shots, as a subject, only activating on 6's.
It only demands that characters with 6's get precision shots.



On the other hand we have the Emperor's Benediction. It has the precision shot special rule. So it makes precision shots. That is it's alternative to rolling a 6 satisfied.
Ditto for Take Aim!

EDIT: And for the sake of completeness, let's list all the reasons that the 6's 'interpretation' breaks other things in its attempt to shoehorn rolls where they don't belong.

>The relic and order have the same special rule. Demanding 6's on either makes 50% of the listing of this special rule completely redundant
>Sniper rifles do not have precision shot, they also list it as popping on a 6. Why bother with this distinction if the 6 is part of the requirement?
>Advanced Targetting in the Tau Codex specifically requires a 6 to hit, and does not have the precision shot special rule
>Sharpshoot in the Eldar codex under Illic Nightspear mentions that all shots fired are precision shots. Why bother every saying that if even with precision shots, you need to roll a 6?
>Sniper rifles actually lose the ability to make precision shots unless they're in the hands of a character. We've been playing 6'th ed long enough to not be considering that as RAW, I feel.

You're really sticking to the word "Charater" then? Strict RaW only? So Wraithguard can't shoot or assault?

You wouldn't consider ever replacing the word "character" with the word "model" when applied to a non-character?

 grendel083 wrote:
You're really sticking to the word "Charater" then? Strict RaW only? So Wraithguard can't shoot or assault?

You wouldn't consider ever replacing the word "character" with the word "model" when applied to a non-character?

That wouls be re-writing the rule. And will still break Eldar sharpshhoot, Sniper rifles, Advanced Targeting, and The Emperor's Benediction.

Why would I re-write a rule for RAW if it then conflicts with other things, when I can read it as it is already written and it functions fine?

Edit: Nevermind, I mis-read the sniper rule.

Do we have any new questions I need to post up?