farrenj wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
. Superfluous text.

A good term to use against arguments that prove you wrong. That RAW is just superfluous text! Interesting.

This is getting unnecessarily personal. Brachiaraidos is simply saying that the first sentence defines one particular situation in which you get precision shots. It then follows up with a definition of precision shots that doesn't mention rolling 6's. His point is logical and accusing him of not being able to make sense of the definition is rude and dishonest. I happen to agree with Brachiaraidos but it doesn't stop me from understanding where the other side is coming from.

Some of us read "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots," as stating an example of a situation in which precision shots happen, but other powers/items could also grant or cause precision shots (see: Emperor's Benediction). If they had wanted Take Aim to to require rolling 6's they instead would have made the order grant the Sniper special rule, which is exactly what people are talking about: having to roll a 6 to get precision shots.

The other side of the argument says that "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots," means that rolling a 6 is a requirement. The idea is that the rolling of a 6 is an intrinsic part of getting a precision shot and any situation in which a particular model is granted precision shots would mean that it has to roll a 6 to get that precision shot effect.

I think there's a good list of relevant rules here for consideration: http://armourpiercingpi.blogspot.com/2014/04/astra-militarum-take-aim-and-precision.html

Accusing people of being unable to understand simple concepts, I believe, goes beyond what should be acceptable behavior in civil conversations. Once we start insulting each others' intelligence it all goes downhill and nothing gets accomplished.

Also, on a note, there's no fixation on the word character in the first sentence. The entry could just as easily read "If any of your model's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots," and Brachiaraidos and my assertion would remain the same based on the wording of the relevant rules.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Fragile wrote:
A good term to use against arguments that prove you wrong. That RAW is just superfluous text! Interesting.

he also argues that the precision shots is not a special rule; so Take Aim and Emperors benediction does nothing at all anyways since both refer to or have the special rule: Precision Shots.

Then his argument hinges on 1 publication out of 3 has a different rule listed for precision shots, so Hot Shot volley guns must have gets hot since 1 publication out of 4 have it listed as such in 1 instance of its rules(tempestus Scions armoury).

farrenj wrote:
This is getting unnecessarily personal. Brachiaraidos is simply saying that the first sentence defines one particular situation in which you get precision shots. It then follows up with a definition of precision shots that doesn't mention rolling 6's. His point is logical and accusing him of not being able to make sense of the definition is rude and dishonest. I happen to agree with Brachiaraidos but it doesn't stop me from understanding where the other side is coming from.

Some of us read "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots," as stating an example of a situation in which precision shots happen, but other powers/items could also grant or cause precision shots (see: Emperor's Benediction). If they had wanted Take Aim to to require rolling 6's they instead would have made the order grant the Sniper special rule, which is exactly what people are talking about: having to roll a 6 to get precision shots.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Rule and the effect of the rule have the same name.

Just like Gets Hot, Deep Strike, Outflank, Infiltrate, Instant Death(The Special Rule), Soulblaze cuases the effect Ablaze(I know this isn't the same name but it ius another example of a Special rule that causes an effect).

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Fragile wrote:
A good term to use against arguments that prove you wrong. That RAW is just superfluous text! Interesting.

he also argues that the precision shots is not a special rule; so Take Aim and Emperors benediction does nothing at all anyways since both refer to or have the special rule: Precision Shots.

Then his argument hinges on 1 publication out of 3 has a different rule listed for precision shots, so Hot Shot volley guns must have gets hot since 1 publication out of 4 have it listed as such in 1 instance of its rules(tempestus Scions armoury).

Not at all, but please, tell me more about what I'm not saying. My point is that precision shots was not a specal rule until Codex: Astra Militarum, which is why no book, codex or dataslate ever uses the words 'Precision shot special rule' until C:AM.

Because of that, characters cannot have the special rule precision shot, which was a big part of your earlier assertions on the rule. Which is the reason the BRB never says they have it. They're a way for character to make precision shots, and precision shots is now a special rule. But please, let me know more about how much you know about what a special rule is. I'm still waiting for you to back up your clam that thrust move is a special rule.

farrenj wrote:
This is getting unnecessarily personal. Brachiaraidos is simply saying that the first sentence defines one particular situation in which you get precision shots. It then follows up with a definition of precision shots that doesn't mention rolling 6's. His point is logical and accusing him of not being able to make sense of the definition is rude and dishonest. I happen to agree with Brachiaraidos but it doesn't stop me from understanding where the other side is coming from.

Some of us read "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots," as stating an example of a situation in which precision shots happen, but other powers/items could also grant or cause precision shots (see: Emperor's Benediction). If they had wanted Take Aim to to require rolling 6's they instead would have made the order grant the Sniper special rule, which is exactly what people are talking about: having to roll a 6 to get precision shots.

Pretty much. If there shot requires a 6, the special rule just would be sniper. Because that's all sniper does as a special rule on a model and not a weapon.

Rolling a 6 on a character gives the precision shot special rule.
Having the Emperor's Benediction gives the precision shot special rule.
Take Aim! gives the precision shot special rule.

It's all the same all all ends the same way.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You said in one of the last posts I refused to answer that Precision shots was just an advanced rule(While trying to say that there is a difference between advanced rules and special rules by citing the Advanced rules text; as opposed the the reality that all special rules are advanced rules).

If it is just an advanced rule then the AM book referring to the precision shots special rule does not change that fact, it makes the AM books rules do nothing at all.

 TheSilo wrote:
The sniper rule also confers rending. Not just precision shots on 6s.

I highly doubt it was the intention to make Take Aim into auto-precision shots. Especially since it is a junior officer order.

Smite at Will seems to be phrased that it requires a second ld test, unfortunately.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You said in one of the last posts I refused to answer that Precision shots was just an advanced rule(While trying to say that there is a difference between advanced rules and special rules by citing the Advanced rules text; as opposed the the reality that all special rules are advanced rules).

If it is just an advanced rule then the AM book referring to the precision shots special rule does not change that fact, it makes the AM books rules do nothing at all.

It WAS just an advanced rule.

It's now a special rule.

It's rare, but newest publications always take precedence. Usually, a new BRB forces old editions' codex to change. This time a codex has given changes to the BRB.

Loosely speaking, anyway. It's introduced a new special rule in the same way any codex can. It just so happens that special rule takes the wording of an old advanced rule.

And all special rules are advanced rules. But not all advanced rules are special rules.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
There's no 'Gets hot!' effect. Show me in the BRB where it says a weapon with Gets Hot! that rolls a 1 to hit Gets Hot!

They don't. They just suffer a wound. The effect is a wound, the rule is Gets Hot! The effect of instant death is removed from play. The effect of outflank is the board edge they arrive from changes.

Gets Hot and Weapons That Do Not Roll To Hit wrote: On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot;

 Happyjew wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
There's no 'Gets hot!' effect. Show me in the BRB where it says a weapon with Gets Hot! that rolls a 1 to hit Gets Hot!

They don't. They just suffer a wound. The effect is a wound, the rule is Gets Hot! The effect of instant death is removed from play. The effect of outflank is the board edge they arrive from changes.

The closest I could find:

Gets Hot and Weapons That Do Not Roll To Hit wrote: On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot;

A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of 1,2, or 3each time the weapon gets hot.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Having outflank gives you the effect to outflank, the effect is moving in from an alternate board edge as defined in the rule. Having and using the rule gives you the effect of the rule.

Having outflank gives you the effect of outflank

You roll a 6 on your characters shooting attack, that is no a Precision shot(the thing); the rest of the rules explain what those precision shots (as qualified shooting attacks) do.

Sniper, SharpShooter, Eye of Vengeance, et al tell you that the shooting attacks are Precision shots (exactly the same as the first sentence rolling a 6 to hit), and so bypass the need to roll a 6 continuing on with the rest of the rule.

Take Aim and Emperors benediction do not do this, they tell you the models (or weapon) have the whole rule.

You roll a 6 on your characters shooting attack, that is no a Precision shot(the thing)

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Having outflank gives you the effect to outflank, the effect is moving in from an alternate board edge as defined in the rule. Having and using the rule gives you the effect of the rule.

Having a special rule lets you use the special rule? Well damn, stop the presses. But no, having outflank lets you come on from a different board edge, and the special rule is outflank. There's only one 'outflank' thing in the game not two, and it's the special rule. Here, let me correct one thing in your sentence;

Having outflank gives you the effect of outflank

And this change in lexicon has come about because it only became a special rule in C:AM. They mean the same thing.

And the first line does not apply to them.

It begins with this:

You roll a 6 on your characters shooting attack, that is no a Precision shot(the thing)

Similarly, after issuing the Take Aim! order, that unit's shots are now precision shots. This tells you that they are precision shots and they don't need to roll a 6 to make them a precision shot.

Similarly, is using the emperor's benediction, that model's shots are now precision shots. This tells you that they are precision shots and they don't need to roll a 6 to make them precision shots.

The first line, even contained within the body of the special rule, only tells us that rolls of a 6 on a character benefit from precision shot. Precision shot the previously thing and now special rule. The exact same thing is told to us by Take Aim! and the Emp's Ben'.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Which is why instead of ignoring that sentence altogether we must look to how the 2 rules interact, and try to make them fit. In making the 2 rules fit we do not simply ignore the sentence, we alter it slightly to apply to those models gaining the rule being able to use the rule(by simply changing "Character" to "models with this rule").

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Which is why instead of ignoring that sentence altogether we must look to how the 2 rules interact, and try to make them fit. In making the 2 rules fit we do not simply ignore the sentence, we alter it slightly to apply to those models gaining the rule being able to use the rule(by simply changing "Character" to "models with this rule").

No, we do not alter the sentence at all. That makes it a different rule. And seriously; it does not state that models have to roll a 6 to get their precision shot. It states that character, who do not have the precision shot special rule, get it when they roll a 6.

Allow me to list lingual forms that would require models with precision shot to allocate wounds on 6's, instead of characters making precision shots (and therefore allocating wounds) on 6's.

A model with the precision shot special rule may allocate hits on a roll to hit of a 6.
A model that rolls a 6 may allocate a hit on a roll of a 6 when shooting with the precision shot special rule.
Precision shots allocate their wound on a roll of a 6.

Or how about a form almost word for word from a similar rule in the BRB:

If a model makes a shooting attack with a weapon that has the rending precision shot special rule, a to hit roll of a 6 allows the controlling player to allocate the wound.

The rule is none of these things. We have two sentences.

If any of your characters' shots roll a 6 to hit, these are precision shots.

What this means is that if any of your characters' shots roll a 6 to hit, they're precision shots. They start having the special rule precision shots. Or more accurately, they become the previously advanced and now special rule precision shot.

Wounds from precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice...

Wounds from Precision Shots. Wounds that are from sources with the precision shot special rule. Any source.

Take Aim! Gives precision Shot. Wounds from precision shot are allocated. Nice and simple.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Take Aim give the precision shot special rule, removing the first sentence altogether makes it a different rule.

The Rule states Character who roll a 6 gain a stated effect and then goes on to describe that effect, just the same as gets hot weapons that roll a 1 gain a specific effect.

Or a unit that has the outflank rule has the option for a specific effect when coming in from reserves. Or Rolling a 6 to wound/ armour Penetration gives a specific effect, or a weapon with instant death has a specific effect(that effect is found on an entirely different page)

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Take Aim give the precision shot special rule, removing the first sentence altogether makes it a different rule.

We're not removing it. We're looking at it, and noting that it's a step we don't need, because it's a step that grants precision shot to characters. Which we already have.

The Rule states Character who roll a 6 gain a stated effect and then goes on to describe that effect, just the same as gets hot weapons that roll a 1 gain a specific effect.

Not even close to the same way.

Gets Hot! begins with the weapon having Gets Hot!, and ends with the outcome of that shooting attack.

Precision shot (sentence 1) begins with your character not having Precision Shot, and ends with them having Precision shot.
Sentence 2 begins with the model having precision shot and describes what it does.

If you have an effect of a special rule, you have the special rule. There's no way to get one without the other. The effect of the special rule is available to you because you have the special rule.

Or a unit that has the outflank rule has the option for a specific effect when coming in from reserves. Or Rolling a 6 to wound/ armour Penetration gives a specific effect, or a weapon with instant death has a specific effect(that effect is found on an entirely different page)

All these rules begin with the model or unit having a special rule and going on to list the effect.

Because it was not a special rule, and now is, but the wording has remained the same, this is not the case for the ibook writing of precision shot.

It still begins with a sentence describing characters getting precision shot (the special rule and therefore the effect).

But we look at that, and go okay. This is a way of gaining precision shot; the special rule, because as before, you need to have the special rule to have the effects of it. We have precision shot, so we go past this step as automatically passed and into what precision shot does.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


It is the same in the iBook, it is not the same wording in the epub version.

Which if your arguement is that the rule is different in 1 of 3 versions of the book and that makes the different wording the correct one, then all hot shot volley guns have the gets hot rule.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


It is the same in the iBook, it is not the same wording in the epub version.

Which if your arguement is that the rule is different in 1 of 3 versions of the book and that makes the different wording the correct one, then all hot shot volley guns have the gets hot rule.

A) Way to gloss over all of the important parts of the previous post

B) What I am saying is that of the published AM codex, the printed version has no description Precison Shot as a special rule, one is the ibook and one is the epub. And the BRB technically has no listing of precision shot as a special rule, even though it has the same block of text. 1 of the 2 glossaries that include it are the ibook.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


And since you posted while I was editing my last post let me re-state the edit:
Also are you saying that Jet Pack subtype models do not have Thrust move?

Or Flying Monstrous creatures do not have hard to hit? What about swooping Hunters, nothing in its rule gives it to Flying monstrous creatures?

Models of particular types have the rules under the sub headings in their types, those rules then tell you when/how they can use those rules. Characters have the precision shots rule, the rule then states that only to-hit rolls of 6 are precision shots

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


And since you posted while I was editing my last post let me re-state the edit:
Also are you saying that Jet Pack subtype models do not have Thrust move?

Or Flying Monstrous creatures do not have hard to hit? What about swooping Hunters, nothing in its rule gives it to Flying monstrous creatures?

Yes. As I clearly said before; none of those are special rules. Please quote anything that displays this to be untrue. I've been waiting a very long time.

Models of particular types have the rules under the sub headings in their types, those rules then tell you when/how they can use those rules. Characters have the precision shots rule, the rule then states that only to-hit rolls of 6 are precision shots

Characters have a subheading precision shots. It begins by saying that they have the advanced rule (which is now a special rule) on 6's to hit. Precision shot was not a special rule until C:AM, characters were last updated in the BRB, ergo characters cannot have the Precision Shot special rule.

Take Aim! says we have it. EmpBen says we have it.

That's why the ibook is sloppy. It contains a specific reference for characters getting precision shots. That should have been left in the characters subheading, because otherwise people get mislead and try force the 6's on anything even if it already has precision shot.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


So Jet Pack Models do not have the Thrust move rule?

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


So Jet Pack Models do not have the Thrust move rule?

Their profile includes advanced rules for movement. Thrust Move is the descriptive subheading of the advanced movement rules for Jump Pack units.

See also BRB Page 47:
Jet Pack Units
Special Rules
Jet pack units have the Bulky, Deep Strike and Relentless special rules.

BRB page 32:
What special rules do I have?
It may seem obvious, but unless otherwise stated, a model does not have a special rule.

So where does it tell us that Thrust Move is a special rule? Because I can show you the list of special rules for Jet Pack Units that show you they don't have it. It's right there

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I didn't say special.

I said Rule.

Do Jet Packs have the Thrust move rule?

Or for that matter do FMCs have the Grounded rule?

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I didn't say special.

I said Rule.

Do Jet Packs have the Thrust move rule?

Or for that matter do FMCs have the Grounded rule?

They have advanced movement rules. One of them is sub-headed Thrust Move. As I said in the above post.

FMC's have advanced rules. One of them is referred to as Grounded.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Characters have advanced rules, one of them is precision Shots.

Characters have Precision Shots.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Characters have advanced rules, one of them is precision Shots.

Characters have Precision Shots.

Or to do that statement properly

Characters have advanced rules. Their profile has a subheading precision shots.

That subheading tells us in the very first line that characters have precision shots when they roll a 6.

Just because the subheading is there does not give characters precision shot.

Thrust move fores "A jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat may...". At any time, a jet pack unit may do the following as listed in Thrust Move.

Precision shot says "If any of your characters' shots roll a 6 to hit..." At any time your characters roll a 6, they get precision shot.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, they have Precision Shots, just like Jet pack models have Thrust move, the caveats contained in the rule tells you when they get to use the rules, but are very much part of the rules.

A Character Has Precision Shots, the rule tells you when the character gets to use Precision shots and tells us that those shots under prescribed circumstances are Precision Shots.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, they have Precision Shots, just like Jet pack models have Thrust move, the caveats contained in the rule tells you when they get to use the rules, but are very much part of the rules.

A Character Has Precision Shots, the rule tells you when the character gets to use Precision shots and tells us that those shots under prescribed circumstances are Precision Shots.

Only that's not true. Sounds nice, but isn't true.

Thrust Move is just a subheading. Hard to Hit is just a subheading. Precision Shots, in characters, is just a subheading.

They describe the function of profiles. They don't make those subheadings into distinct 'rules' on their own. Otherwise 'Movement' would be a rule. 'Shooting with Artillery' would be a rule Artillery had. 'Assault' would be a rule bikes & jetbikes had.


Characters do not have the precision shot rule. There's no way to make that any clearer.

The BRB tells us they get precision shots on a 6, not that they have precision shots.
The BRB tells us snipers get precision shots on a 6, not that they have precision shots.
The BRB tells us bike moves are not slowed down by difficult terrain and take dangerous terrain checks for barricades and Aegis lines, not that they have Assault.
The BRB tells us that FMC's start in glide mode if they're on the board turn 1, not that they have the deployment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So now Subheadings in rules are not rules, they are just subheadings.

Congratulations Take Aim does nothing, there is no such thing as the Precision Shots Rule.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So now Subheadings in rules are not rules, they are just subheadings.

Congratulations Take Aim does nothing, there is no such thing as the Precision Shots Rule.

Statement 1 is true (if badly worded).

Statement 2 is not.

It did not used to be a special rule. It now is. The Codex introduced it and the definition we use is in the epub and ibook.

So yes, it is a special rule, it does things, and characters don't have it.