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Normally when someone insults the Tau they call them anime fan, referencing an insult to modern Japanese culture. But are the Tau Japanese? I mean:

They have a Government form nowhere near representing Feudalism

In the Sphere expansions, they fight the White Scars, who are the Space Mongols (Common enemy of the Chinese, but never successfully invaded Japan)

Feudal Japan was, shall we say, intolerant of foreigners, whereas the Chinese were known to adopt other forces into their own(Kroot, Vespid).

Pure tide is definitely Sun Tzu, who was Chinese.

Found by the Empire (which is without question Europe), and then forgotten about. Rediscovered later as a powerhouse.

So perhaps I'm reading way too far into this, or its just pattern recognition from World History, But Are the Tau a giant reference to China?

No. They're an anime-influenced addition to the game, so there's some tongue-in-cheek "yellowfacing" on the Tau (most notable in non-GW products, like the VA for them in the DoW series), but they are not an item of socio-political commentary from GW on any real-world society or government.

They're Space-WW2-Era Japan, but with mecha. Though like all 40K factions, there are a number of culture and media inspirations that go into them.

Expecting serious social commentary from the same setting where the collected rage and hate of living beings poops out little ragemen with hateswords to murder people is silly.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They're Space-WW2-Era Japan, but with mecha. Though like all 40K factions, there are a number of culture and media inspirations that go into them.

How do you see that? The primary social opinion regarding war in Japan circa WWII was Death before Dishonor, hence the Banzai charges and kamikaze's, and the fact that we rarely caught prisoners in the Pacific. They would've literally rather died than been dishonored through defeat. The Tau are openly stated in the 4th ed codex to be believers in fighting another day, and never pinning themselves into conflicts they can't win. None of their tactics or opinions reflect Japan in this Era.

I don't believe the question was necessarily of intentionality, but rather of the tropes that GW writers used to construct the Tau society.

As a real world student of East Asian history I can say emphatically that the Tau borrow from many different social concepts native to east asia.

Most glaring is the central organizing principal of the Tau: "The Greater Good." This concept is clearly a reference to Confucianism, and more specifically the concept of filial piety. Being that every member of society has a particular role to serve based upon simple metaphorical concepts. For the Tau these concepts are an analog to the four elements Earth Caste, Fire Caste, Water Caste, Air Caste (and ofcourse the Ethereal Caste). None of these groups are inherently "better" or "worse" than one another, but rather interact with one another based upon a proscribed series of relationships.

For Confucianism the central organizing feature is Filial piety and more specifically a concept (similarly numbered to the tau) of the Five Relationships. These concepts govern how individuals should interact with other members of society (Ruler to Subject, Father to Son, Brother to Brother, Husband and Wife, Friend to Friend). In practice these concepts were extrapolated to legitimize all manner of unrelated concepts in government as well as in society.

Explicitly Confucius argues that no individual is inherently morally superior, but rather honor bound to serve each relationship in a dutiful manner. In doing so an individual can be a moral being, a just ruler, a dutiful wife etc..

No single thing links the Tau to any real world concept more than this fact. Even the origin story of the Tau state religion-philosophy (the very concept of which is so uniquely Confucian it is hard to stress hard enough) is practically lifted from the life of Confucious. Confucius supposedly wrote his treatise on society as a response to the brutal warfare and chaos of the "warring states" period in chinese history. Instead confucious offered a harmonious path of duty and mutual responsibility that resonated at the time, and would later become the quasi-state-religion.

So too did the ethereal caste arrive during a period of great war between CITY STATES and offered a new harmonious philosophy based upon duty, honor, and mutual responsibility.

Personally I think GW did a good job adapting east asian tropes into the Tau lore instead of making another proto-tolkeinian techno-slave society (however much I might love those). The Cult of the Emperor, and by analog the Empire of Mankind, is a transparent reference to Christianity, Resurrection, salvation and the Holy Roman Empire.

I would hardly say that loosely basing a fictional society on east asian philosophy is "yellowfacing" no more than basing the Warhammer Fantasy Empire on the Germanic Holy Roman Empire is "saurkrauting" or basing the ultramarines on Greek Mythology is "Baklavaizing."

The simple fact is that when writing any kind of fantasy you must draw upon cultural tropes because
a) You literally cannot escape cultural reference
b) they add a layer of relateable depth to a fake society

TLDNR: Yes, the Tau are at the very least based upon East Asian philosophy, at most likely a reference to Imperial China. Read about confucianism and you will agree.

 Will1541 wrote:
Normally when someone insults the Tau they call them anime fan, referencing an insult to modern Japanese culture. But are the Tau Japanese? I mean:
They have a Government form nowhere near representing Feudalism
In the Sphere expansions, they fight the White Scars, who are the Space Mongols (Common enemy of the Chinese, but never successfully invaded Japan)
Feudal Japan was, shall we say, intolerant of foreigners, whereas the Chinese were known to adopt other forces into their own(Kroot, Vespid).
Pure tide is definitely Sun Tzu, who was Chinese.
Found by the Empire (which is without question Europe), and then forgotten about. Rediscovered later as a powerhouse.
So perhaps I'm reading way too far into this, or its just pattern recognition from World History, But Are the Tau a giant reference to China?

I always took the Eldar as being Japanese. What with their great reverence for runes(Kanji) and their slick slender asian form. Their different aspects being the way that certain Japanese obsess about different thinks and become kind of nerds(or at least so the steriotype goes). The reference to "the fall" is to the defeat of their forces and empire in WWII. They are Xenophobic but occasionally work with the IoM(US and Europe).

DE are the communist Chinese. Still east asian, still have the runes(Hanzi this time) still the same slick slender asian form but they are cut off from the rest of the galaxy in much the same way as China use to be cut off from the rest of the world. There are more of them than most people know, except the Eldar who obviously know who they are. To some extent this then makes the Eldar the south koreans and taiwanese as well. Still Xenophobic as hell.


The Tau on the other hand are racially open. They will work with anyone for the greater good. Few cultures in asia are not Xenophobic or racist. Perhaps Singapore or Malaysia. Going further south, Australia. Who when was discovered by europe was nothing and was passed over, but now is becoming an economic and technological power.

Eh, Eldar are Tolkein Elves, which were all tall and willowy.

 Psienesis wrote:
Eh, Eldar are Tolkein Elves, which were all tall and willowy.

And the names for most of their stuff is so Celtic it hurts.

That GW copyrighted 'Eldar' is something I find is a great irony.

Devious wrote:
I don't believe the question was necessarily of intentionality, but rather of the tropes that GW writers used to construct the Tau society.

As a real world student of East Asian history I can say emphatically that the Tau borrow from many different social concepts native to east asia.

Most glaring is the central organizing principal of the Tau: "The Greater Good." This concept is clearly a reference to Confucianism, and more specifically the concept of filial piety. Being that every member of society has a particular role to serve based upon simple metaphorical concepts. For the Tau these concepts are an analog to the four elements Earth Caste, Fire Caste, Water Caste, Air Caste (and ofcourse the Ethereal Caste). None of these groups are inherently "better" or "worse" than one another, but rather interact with one another based upon a proscribed series of relationships.

For Confucianism the central organizing feature is Filial piety and more specifically a concept (similarly numbered to the tau) of the Five Relationships. These concepts govern how individuals should interact with other members of society (Ruler to Subject, Father to Son, Brother to Brother, Husband and Wife, Friend to Friend). In practice these concepts were extrapolated to legitimize all manner of unrelated concepts in government as well as in society.

Explicitly Confucius argues that no individual is inherently morally superior, but rather honor bound to serve each relationship in a dutiful manner. In doing so an individual can be a moral being, a just ruler, a dutiful wife etc..

No single thing links the Tau to any real world concept more than this fact. Even the origin story of the Tau state religion-philosophy (the very concept of which is so uniquely Confucian it is hard to stress hard enough) is practically lifted from the life of Confucious. Confucius supposedly wrote his treatise on society as a response to the brutal warfare and chaos of the "warring states" period in chinese history. Instead confucious offered a harmonious path of duty and mutual responsibility that resonated at the time, and would later become the quasi-state-religion.

So too did the ethereal caste arrive during a period of great war between CITY STATES and offered a new harmonious philosophy based upon duty, honor, and mutual responsibility.

Personally I think GW did a good job adapting east asian tropes into the Tau lore instead of making another proto-tolkeinian techno-slave society (however much I might love those). The Cult of the Emperor, and by analog the Empire of Mankind, is a transparent reference to Christianity, Resurrection, salvation and the Holy Roman Empire.

I would hardly say that loosely basing a fictional society on east asian philosophy is "yellowfacing" no more than basing the Warhammer Fantasy Empire on the Germanic Holy Roman Empire is "saurkrauting" or basing the ultramarines on Greek Mythology is "Baklavaizing."

The simple fact is that when writing any kind of fantasy you must draw upon cultural tropes because
a) You literally cannot escape cultural reference
b) they add a layer of relateable depth to a fake society

TLDNR: Yes, the Tau are at the very least based upon East Asian philosophy, at most likely a reference to Imperial China. Read about confucianism and you will agree.

Quite interesting. Exalted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
That GW copyrighted 'Eldar' is something I find is a great irony.

Eldar, Space Marines.... and the eight pointed star of Chaos, used by humanity since forever and made popular by Michael Moorcock as a symbol of the Chaos Gods.

It baffles me to no end.

I think that is a bit of an over-simplification of East-Asian attitudes towards race and nationality. Granted, today China and Japan have massive problems with racial intolerance. But in the shadow of the Second World War its hardly surprising that both Japan and China harbor deep resentment for one another.

On the other hand China, Japan and Korea have a rich history of cultural adoption, assimilation and reinvention. Prior to the arrival of european colonialism the Chinese Empire viewed itself as the political, cultural, economic, technological, and moral center of the world. That is to say there was no fear or hatred of the outsider, but rather indifference and condescension.

I think that this attitude perfectly encapsulates the Tau. Morally superior condescension towards all who have not joined the Tau Empire. Often times the Tau refer to Humans as lost or pitiable, treating humans as mere children compared to the mature and wise leadership of the ethereals. The Tau are NOT multi-cultural. Infact they are a Mono-culture. It is stated multiple times how new species are shipped off to the Tau core worlds in order to properly assimilate into Tau society. In this way the Tau are not tolerant, but the very definition of a monolithic empire. Much like the Chinese Empire.

This attitude of xenophobia often ascribed to China and Japan comes largely from post-war nationalism in the 50s and 60s. Communism especially created a fortress mentality in China whereby the West, and foreigners in general were blamed for China's problems. In Japan a similar route was taken, but this was largely blunted by massive post-war reconciliation and reeducation in Japan by US forces.

This may be long winded, but the upshot is that the Tau are not a Present day analog to a particular nation of people, but rather an amalgamation of Imperial Chinese tropes.

Devious wrote:
This may be long winded, but the upshot is that the Tau are not a Present day analog to a particular nation of people, but rather an amalgamation of Imperial Chinese tropes.

I guess I should've been more Specific as to which time period I meant. I mean China after the collapse of the Qin Dynasty and the events of the Warring States Period, but before the rise of the Han.

 Kain wrote:
And the names for most of their stuff is so Celtic it hurts.

Well... Tolkien based his elves on the original Celtic Elves, so all Tolkenian references are Celtic by extent.

Devious wrote:
TLDNR: Yes, the Tau are at the very least based upon East Asian philosophy, at most likely a reference to Imperial China. Read about confucianism and you will agree.

Thank you.

Side question, is the W word considered a 'bad' word on Dakka? I most definitely didn't type 'Anime Fan'.

The Elves Tolkien drew on were Nordic I believe.

Side question, is the W word considered a 'bad' word on Dakka? I most definitely didn't type 'Anime Fan'.

No race or faction is entirely just one culture lifted as is from history. GW has taken and blended and adapted (to vary degrees of success) parts from all over the world and from different historical time periods.

For example:

The Eldar thematically draw from multiple sources. Of these, Japan is one of them. Direct evidence of aesthetc borrowings include: the symbol of Iyanden includes a shrine gate design directly analogous to Japanese Shinto shrines. The back banners Jes Goodwin was fond of including in Eldar design (and which was present in many 2nd ed. models) matched the back banners worn by Japanese samurai and soldiers during the Japanese Warring States period and are even named as sashimono banners in Jes Goodwin's sketches and notes.

However, the Eldar also have influences from Greek,Celtic, even Egyptian sources. The Corinthian design of Eldar helms, particularly Dire Avenger ones, for example is clear Greek influence. Eldar Craftworld names of Biel-tan and Saim-han are direct copies of the real world Celtic festivals/holidays. The false chin beards on certain Eldar helms such as the Dire Avenger Exarch borrows from the Egyptians (see Egyptian funeral masks), and the Ulthwe design is based off the historical Egyptian Eye of Horus. The chiseled Eldar runes are based off Egyptian hieroglyphs while the more fluid Eldar runes look like those that might be written with a brush, and are either a reference to Egyptian Demotic or Asian brush writing. The Yin/Yang symbols on Eldar transfer sheets or Eldar Titans and Wraithknights is a take on the Chinese concept of Yin and Yang. The seals on the Wraith constructs is referred to by Jes Goodwin in his sketches as tugra, which is a Turk/Ottoman thing. Overlying all of this is the theme of Tolkien elves, which have Celtic and Finnish elements.

Thematically each of these cultures served as epitome of alien, inscrutable menace to one of the component influences on the Imperium. The Imperium is, obviously, part Roman, part-medieval and part-Victorian. Romans were simultaneously fascinated and repulsed by the Greeks and Egyptians, medieval western Europeans by the Byzantines and the Victorians by the Chinese. Fu Manchu, the quintessential "Yellow Peril" villain is pretty much how the Imperium pictures Eldar Farseers.

It's a derogatory expression for anime fans. Not on the same level as the N-word for people of African heritage (for obvious reasons), but with the same general intent. Same thing as the F-word for homosexuals. There's nothing positive behind the word.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a derogatory expression for anime fans. Not on the same level as the N-word for people of African heritage (for obvious reasons), but with the same general intent. Same thing as the F-word for homosexuals. There's nothing positive behind the word.

Eh, true. I'm usually called it, so don't see it as derogatory. Didn't really consider it that way.

Devious wrote:
I had no idea there was a derogatory term for anime fans. Let alone one that starts with a "W."

Probably wee aboo, or just weeb.

Animus wrote:

Devious wrote:
I had no idea there was a derogatory term for anime fans. Let alone one that starts with a "W."

Probably wee aboo, or just weeb.

I always just figured "anime fan" was a naturally derogatory term and never felt the need for any other thing to call them

anime fan refers to nerds who are obsessed with Japanese stuff. Its not a term for people who simply enjoy some jappo cartoons.

I know plenty of people who enjoy the latter but who are socially well adjusted individuals. And plenty who aren't =/

Edit: wow that really is a stupid censor

 dementedwombat wrote:
I always just figured "anime fan" was a naturally derogatory term and never felt the need for any other thing to call them

Ah, but variety is the spice of life.

 Dakkamite wrote:
anime fan refers to nerds who are obsessed with Japanese stuff. Its not a term for people who simply enjoy some jappo cartoons.

I know plenty of people who enjoy the latter but who are socially well adjusted individuals. And plenty who aren't =/

Edit: wow that really is a stupid censor

The W word isn't the nerds who are obsessed, although they're called wee aboo as well, the word really is meant as a stab at post WWII culture of Japan over all(ya know, the new one made because 'Murica completely destroyed the previous one. Yay US.)

Nothing in 40K is a carbon copy of any one single thing.


There, now that you understand that, you can move forward.

Aesthetically, they were Games Workshop's attempt to edge into the market of kids into Japanese animation, most specifically the mecha "big robot suit" genres.

Past that, they have no real tie to Japanese culture. But that said, a lot of people don't care about the fluff. They just like the way the models look. So yes, Tau players are significantly more likely to be "anime fans". But that's not an insult by itself.


Thematically, the Tau are yanked straight out of Aldous Huxley's classic novel Brave New World. Like ripped right out of it. There's plenty of other influences in there, like everything in 40K. But if you want to read the best novel about the Tau, read Brave New World. Well, read it anyway, because it's a great novel. But if you want to understand the Tau and how they are meant to fit into the 40K universe, read it. They have five eugenically engineered and socially conditioned castes of people who are completely happy with their jobs, physiologically ideal for that role, ruled over by a caste of elites, are short-lived, and even have their own splinter group of guys who stopped drinking the Kool-Aid.

I think you guys are giving too much credit to GW when you're digging into these deep Chinese/Confucianism roots. They didn't think that hard, lol. Somebody just said

"Hey, you guys ever read this book? We should make that new Mecha army out of that."
"Oh yeah, that's a sweet book. Let's do it."

I don't know, Tau culture seems rather too "straight laced" for Brave New World. I guess it's not really an area that's got much airtime, but I always imagined the average Tau being much more serious about things.

Op, I agree. Gw has stated in the past that Tau are an amalgamation of the Asian military and social history. Japan, China, and the like. This was more of a marketing ploy to draw business from that region. There is more of an anime look with a Chinese undertone feel (fluff wise, not model looks)...

GW borrows from cultures purely for aesthetics and tone, not to make any kind of deeper point or allegory- and it's always in broad strokes and from a European perspective. Lizardmen have a meso-american look because we think of those cultures as primitive but also wise beyond our knowing (what with what we believed to be a "doomsday" calendar). So yes you could say the Tau have an eastern theme with their mecha and advanced technology and communal thinking, but it's no more a comment on China than Vampire Counts are a comment on Transylvania.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Nothing in 40K is a carbon copy of any one single thing.


There, now that you understand that, you can move forward.

Aesthetically, they were Games Workshop's attempt to edge into the market of kids into Japanese animation, most specifically the mecha "big robot suit" genres.

Past that, they have no real tie to Japanese culture. But that said, a lot of people don't care about the fluff. They just like the way the models look. So yes, Tau players are significantly more likely to be "anime fans". But that's not an insult by itself.


Thematically, the Tau are yanked straight out of Aldous Huxley's classic novel Brave New World. Like ripped right out of it. There's plenty of other influences in there, like everything in 40K. But if you want to read the best novel about the Tau, read Brave New World. Well, read it anyway, because it's a great novel. But if you want to understand the Tau and how they are meant to fit into the 40K universe, read it. They have five eugenically engineered and socially conditioned castes of people who are completely happy with their jobs, physiologically ideal for that role, ruled over by a caste of elites, are short-lived, and even have their own splinter group of guys who stopped drinking the Kool-Aid.

I think you guys are giving too much credit to GW when you're digging into these deep Chinese/Confucianism roots. They didn't think that hard, lol. Somebody just said

"Hey, you guys ever read this book? We should make that new Mecha army out of that."
"Oh yeah, that's a sweet book. Let's do it."

Foremost, you're being a smidgen hypocritical. You say nothing is a carbon copy, then say the Tau are a Carbon Copy. Secondly, you're only seeing a few similarities and then saying they are the same. That's akin to noticing both humans and fish have eyes, and therefore are identical. No. We'll start with the fact that The World State is a peaceful society with no 'enemies' on scale with the Empire. No alien contact has been made, and no resistance is on a scale higher than than that of police level issues. Additionally, the Caste system in Brave new World was based off the Chinese/Hindi caste. So if the Tau were a reference to China then of course the caste system would have similarities. Furthermore, the caste system in Brave New World is based on Intellect, not heritage. The Tau don't breed in labs like the World State Society did. And finally, there are dozens of ties to Chinese culture in the fluff of the Tau, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Explain Puretide through Brave New World. Or the Kroot inductions.

Perhaps it's not us giving GW too much credit where they just copy. Perhaps you underestimate their ability to copy from history.

I'm not being hypocritical. I said the Tau aren't ripped from one thing, then I go and show you two things.

See, two is more than one.

The other thing is you're transposing Huxley's use of Chinese/Hindi culture with GW's. GW used Huxley as a base, without regard for the real world cultural sources. Huxley was using the castes of India, primarily, as his inspiration for a science fiction world. GW then took Huxley's science fiction interpretation of the caste system and adapted it to 40K. The Tau's caste system bears direct similarity to BNW's (right down to the number of castes and how they are tailored for specific jobs), whereas it only has a superficial similarity to the Indian system.

You're just trying to ignore the thematic similarities by pointing out how they didn't just completely copy. Which, again ignores the fact that I said that GW doesn't just copy from a single source. So yeah, the Ethereal-Water-Air-Fire-Earth castes aren't direct copies of the castes in BNW. But they occupy the exact same thematic space.

Every caste in BNW serves a specific purpose, and each one is socially conditioned to accept their place and be happy about it and how their place contributes to the benefit of the whole. No, the Tau don't test-tube breed. What they do instead is forbid inter-caste breeding. Which is just the eugenics version of accomplishing the same exact thing. No, GW didn't copy BNW word for word, but they created a social system which accomplishes the exact same end. People in BNW are test tube bred to be physiologically ideal for their role in society. The Tau just slowly bred the castes for the most advantageous traits for their job, and forbid intermixing that could reverse that eugenic engineering.

Puretide and the Kroot being drawn from other sources is irrelevant. The World State not having any enemies is also irrelevant because Tau are The World State as if it would be in 40K. That argument is ludicrous. How could we compare them to Confucianism, as Confucious never had to fight against Tyranids. Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it?

I did say, in my very first line, which you quoted so I know you read, that GW never takes from just one source. I just said that if you're looking for the one main source, for aesthetics it's anime, and for fluff it's Brave New World. There's plenty of other fluff inspirations for bit and pieces of the Tau.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm not being hypocritical. I said the Tau aren't ripped from one thing, then I go and show you two things.

See, two is more than one.

The other thing is you're transposing Huxley's use of Chinese/Hindi culture with GW's. GW used Huxley as a base, without regard for the real world cultural sources. Huxley was using the castes of India, primarily, as his inspiration for a science fiction world. GW then took Huxley's science fiction interpretation of the caste system and adapted it to 40K. The Tau's caste system bears direct similarity to BNW's (right down to the number of castes and how they are tailored for specific jobs), whereas it only has a superficial similarity to the Indian system.

You're just trying to ignore the thematic similarities by pointing out how they didn't just completely copy. Which, again ignores the fact that I said that GW doesn't just copy from a single source. So yeah, the Ethereal-Water-Air-Fire-Earth castes aren't direct copies of the castes in BNW. But they occupy the exact same thematic space.

Every caste in BNW serves a specific purpose, and each one is socially conditioned to accept their place and be happy about it and how their place contributes to the benefit of the whole. No, the Tau don't test-tube breed. What they do instead is forbid inter-caste breeding. Which is just the eugenics version of accomplishing the same exact thing. No, GW didn't copy BNW word for word, but they created a social system which accomplishes the exact same end. People in BNW are test tube bred to be physiologically ideal for their role in society. The Tau just slowly bred the castes for the most advantageous traits for their job, and forbid intermixing that could reverse that eugenic engineering.

Puretide and the Kroot being drawn from other sources is irrelevant. The World State not having any enemies is also irrelevant because Tau are The World State as if it would be in 40K. That argument is ludicrous. How could we compare them to Confucianism, as Confucious never had to fight against Tyranids. Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it?

I did say, in my very first line, which you quoted so I know you read, that GW never takes from just one source. I just said that if you're looking for the one main source, for aesthetics it's anime, and for fluff it's Brave New World. There's plenty of other fluff inspirations for bit and pieces of the Tau.

Let the debate begin...

Foremost, this is purely about the fluff. I doubt there is question about the Mech Suit Aesthetics' origin.

I still strongly disagree with the argument that the fluff is from Brave New World. Huxley just happened to be referencing the same system, hence the similarities. But the System of the Tau Empire is considerably closer to that of China then that of BNW. I pointed out the complete absence of the Fire Caste because that Caste embodies the overwhelming majority of the Tau Fluff, and its lack of existence in Brave New World makes it rather difficult to steal from it. As for the rest of the caste's, they aren't a direct copy from either BNW or Confucian philosophy. It would be more logical for the info to have been drawn from a single source reference rather than a book AND some history AND another reference AND AND AND.

Puretide and Kroot are not irrelevant, and aren't drawn from different sources (which is why they are relevant.) They solidify that the fluff comes from a common location, Chinese history.

We can compare the Tau to Confucius by all of the core philosophical links made to Confucianism. Whether or not they met the Tyranids is irrelevant. And the point of saying they had no enemies was to show that they had no military caste to convert over. If an author were to steal someone's faction, they'd want to not have to make up 90% of the necessary information to transpose them into said authors universe. In other words, if GW were as lazy as you say, they wouldn't steal the World State because too much original information would be required to graft them in.