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The Tau are visually anime inspired. But culturally I always got more of an Iroquois Confederacy vibe.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm not being hypocritical. I said the Tau aren't ripped from one thing, then I go and show you two things.

See, two is more than one.

The other thing is you're transposing Huxley's use of Chinese/Hindi culture with GW's. GW used Huxley as a base, without regard for the real world cultural sources. Huxley was using the castes of India, primarily, as his inspiration for a science fiction world. GW then took Huxley's science fiction interpretation of the caste system and adapted it to 40K. The Tau's caste system bears direct similarity to BNW's (right down to the number of castes and how they are tailored for specific jobs), whereas it only has a superficial similarity to the Indian system.

You're just trying to ignore the thematic similarities by pointing out how they didn't just completely copy. Which, again ignores the fact that I said that GW doesn't just copy from a single source. So yeah, the Ethereal-Water-Air-Fire-Earth castes aren't direct copies of the castes in BNW. But they occupy the exact same thematic space.

Every caste in BNW serves a specific purpose, and each one is socially conditioned to accept their place and be happy about it and how their place contributes to the benefit of the whole. No, the Tau don't test-tube breed. What they do instead is forbid inter-caste breeding. Which is just the eugenics version of accomplishing the same exact thing. No, GW didn't copy BNW word for word, but they created a social system which accomplishes the exact same end. People in BNW are test tube bred to be physiologically ideal for their role in society. The Tau just slowly bred the castes for the most advantageous traits for their job, and forbid intermixing that could reverse that eugenic engineering.

Puretide and the Kroot being drawn from other sources is irrelevant. The World State not having any enemies is also irrelevant because Tau are The World State as if it would be in 40K. That argument is ludicrous. How could we compare them to Confucianism, as Confucious never had to fight against Tyranids. Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it?

I did say, in my very first line, which you quoted so I know you read, that GW never takes from just one source. I just said that if you're looking for the one main source, for aesthetics it's anime, and for fluff it's Brave New World. There's plenty of other fluff inspirations for bit and pieces of the Tau.

I think you make some great points. Given that you've singled out my Confucius argument it seems necessary to provide a rebuttal, or perhaps even some context.

Ofcourse lore is drawn from many different sources, I think everyone agrees on this point. Necessarily real world philosophies never exist within a vacuum and Confucianism is no different. You're observation concerning Brave New World I think is certainly apt, and the caste system used is definitely a mirror to the Tau system. My point concerning Confucianism is twofold.

1.) The status of Confucianism as a "non-religion religion" in Imperial China parallels the status of the Tau's civil philosophy of the "Greater Good." Few cultural institutions have existed with such a unique status in society: spiritual reverence and yet a secular institution.
2.) Granted Confucianism never established a strict caste system like Hinduism, but it's focus was upon social harmony fits better than Hinduism's strict hierarchy with regards to the "Common Good"

I think both of us are right simply because the Tau lore was derived from amalgamated Eastern concepts of social organization. Confucian concepts of social harmony without a doubt found their way into GW's lore, and the generalized concept of asiatic castes DEFINATELY found its way in. My point was that parallels to High Imperial China definitely fit if were trying to create an analogy to real world societies. While Confucianism influenced many societies across east asia only China adopted Confucianism as a foundation for government, and the parellels are undeniable.

 Psienesis wrote:
No. They're an anime-influenced addition to the game, so there's some tongue-in-cheek "yellowfacing" on the Tau (most notable in non-GW products, like the VA for them in the DoW series), but they are not an item of socio-political commentary from GW on any real-world society or government.

I disagree. The Tau definitely show some, if not all the traits of a startup nation. Not necessarily China, it could be the British of the XVI century, the Americans of the late XIX, early XX centuries or the BRICS of today.

As for the Brave New World debate, while utopian literature and politics certainly factor in, unlike the gene-engineered broods of Huxleys' book Tau castes are not hierarchical. The Tau caste system is probably taken from Plato's "The Republic", and other early european utopian texts, with a bit of confucianism and stereotypes about asian culture added to the mix, and it serves to further the "foreign" and "utopian" themes of the faction.

 TheSilo wrote:
The Tau are visually anime inspired. But culturally I always got more of an Iroquois Confederacy vibe.

That came out of nowhere... Do tell.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. They're an anime-influenced addition to the game, so there's some tongue-in-cheek "yellowfacing" on the Tau (most notable in non-GW products, like the VA for them in the DoW series), but they are not an item of socio-political commentary from GW on any real-world society or government.

I disagree. The Tau definitely show some, if not all the traits of a startup nation. Not necessarily China, it could be the British of the XVI century, the Americans of the late XIX, early XX centuries or the BRICS of today.

As for the Brave New World debate, while utopian literature and politics certainly factor in, unlike the gene-engineered broods of Huxleys' book Tau castes are not hierarchical. The Tau caste system is probably taken from Plato's "The Republic", and other early european utopian texts, with a bit of confucianism and stereotypes about asian culture added to the mix, and it serves to further the "foreign" and "utopian" themes of the faction.

agreed on all counts sir

 Will1541 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm not being hypocritical. I said the Tau aren't ripped from one thing, then I go and show you two things.

See, two is more than one.

The other thing is you're transposing Huxley's use of Chinese/Hindi culture with GW's. GW used Huxley as a base, without regard for the real world cultural sources. Huxley was using the castes of India, primarily, as his inspiration for a science fiction world. GW then took Huxley's science fiction interpretation of the caste system and adapted it to 40K. The Tau's caste system bears direct similarity to BNW's (right down to the number of castes and how they are tailored for specific jobs), whereas it only has a superficial similarity to the Indian system.

You're just trying to ignore the thematic similarities by pointing out how they didn't just completely copy. Which, again ignores the fact that I said that GW doesn't just copy from a single source. So yeah, the Ethereal-Water-Air-Fire-Earth castes aren't direct copies of the castes in BNW. But they occupy the exact same thematic space.

Every caste in BNW serves a specific purpose, and each one is socially conditioned to accept their place and be happy about it and how their place contributes to the benefit of the whole. No, the Tau don't test-tube breed. What they do instead is forbid inter-caste breeding. Which is just the eugenics version of accomplishing the same exact thing. No, GW didn't copy BNW word for word, but they created a social system which accomplishes the exact same end. People in BNW are test tube bred to be physiologically ideal for their role in society. The Tau just slowly bred the castes for the most advantageous traits for their job, and forbid intermixing that could reverse that eugenic engineering.

Puretide and the Kroot being drawn from other sources is irrelevant. The World State not having any enemies is also irrelevant because Tau are The World State as if it would be in 40K. That argument is ludicrous. How could we compare them to Confucianism, as Confucious never had to fight against Tyranids. Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it?

I did say, in my very first line, which you quoted so I know you read, that GW never takes from just one source. I just said that if you're looking for the one main source, for aesthetics it's anime, and for fluff it's Brave New World. There's plenty of other fluff inspirations for bit and pieces of the Tau.

Let the debate begin...

Foremost, this is purely about the fluff. I doubt there is question about the Mech Suit Aesthetics' origin.

I still strongly disagree with the argument that the fluff is from Brave New World. Huxley just happened to be referencing the same system, hence the similarities. But the System of the Tau Empire is considerably closer to that of China then that of BNW. I pointed out the complete absence of the Fire Caste because that Caste embodies the overwhelming majority of the Tau Fluff, and its lack of existence in Brave New World makes it rather difficult to steal from it. As for the rest of the caste's, they aren't a direct copy from either BNW or Confucian philosophy. It would be more logical for the info to have been drawn from a single source reference rather than a book AND some history AND another reference AND AND AND.

Puretide and Kroot are not irrelevant, and aren't drawn from different sources (which is why they are relevant.) They solidify that the fluff comes from a common location, Chinese history.

We can compare the Tau to Confucius by all of the core philosophical links made to Confucianism. Whether or not they met the Tyranids is irrelevant. And the point of saying they had no enemies was to show that they had no military caste to convert over. If an author were to steal someone's faction, they'd want to not have to make up 90% of the necessary information to transpose them into said authors universe. In other words, if GW were as lazy as you say, they wouldn't steal the World State because too much original information would be required to graft them in.

Again, the Tau castes don't translate directly because 40K doesn't translate anything directly. It borrows and adapts

They would have to work far harder to convert the Tau fluff from Confucianism, ancient China, and the Indian caste system than they would have to to think "Hey, this is 40K, and the Tau need to fight. What if one of the castes, instead of being middle management or elevator operators, were their military instead?"



I never said that GW is lazy. I just said their source material has always been ridiculously obvious for the Tau to anyone familiar with Brave New World. These are guys who borrowed from Starship Troopers, and Aliens, and Rambo, and Lawrence of Arabia, and Gundam, and Spartacus, and Mad Max, and Tolkein, and Dune, and the Crusades, etc. All obvious and easily recognizable cultural elements for English speaking Westerners. Innnnnn Spaaaaaaaace. That's what has made 40K so popular. Easily identified themes from pop culture for players to identify with and latch onto. Simple concepts. Their interpretation of Eastern themes and cultures? Attilan Rough Riders. GW references are subtle like chainaxes.

So what's the more likely inspiration for the Tau? A layered and complex study of Indian and Chinese caste systems and Confucian philosophy... or an easily recognized part of Western science fiction already preconfigured to be compatible with a dystopic setting?

I mean, I admire the familiarity with the cultural aspects that Huxley used in crafting Brave New World. But they're only related to 40K by marriage. Trying to draw the parallels that deep is an exercise in you trying to say "Look at this cool stuff I know." The reality is that this stuff isn't that complicated. Dan Abnett adapts Michael Chrichton's Eaters of the Dead (what became the film The 13th Warrior) with Space Wolves, and it becomes a NYT Bestseller.

 da001 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
That GW copyrighted 'Eldar' is something I find is a great irony.

Eldar, Space Marines.... and the eight pointed star of Chaos, used by humanity since forever and made popular by Michael Moorcock as a symbol of the Chaos Gods.

It baffles me to no end.

[tangent] The symbol of Chaos was straight up invented by Moorcock for one of the early Elric stories. It's widely assumed to be "ancient" (nobody seems to know where it's supposed to be from specifically) but I've never seen it on anything pre-1960s.

They are neither Japan nor China. They just have a generic 'Asian' feel, with influences from multiple Asian cultures.

No, I wouldn't say they are a giant reference to China, though there is some influence there.

Tau fluff has a lot of similarities with Ancient Chinese theology. Some people draw parallels between communism and the tau empire as well. (China, even with its 'special' version of communism, is still more communist than Japan ever was. Chinese Communism is probably closer to tau fluff than marxist communism anyway.)
Overall, Tau fluff originates from Chinese Culture more than Japanese culture.

However, their model design has much more in common with Japanese sources. The most glaring of these is of course the gundam riptides.

Then, you have the kroot, who I've always believed to have been influenced by American Indians, with their mohawks and eating enemies (derived from skalping?).

So, I would say a little Chinese influence at most.

 Kain wrote:
Expecting serious social commentary from the same setting where the collected rage and hate of living beings poops out little ragemen with hateswords to murder people is silly.

Hateswords, are awesome.

Admit it.

Tau is pretty much the general idea of yellow peril, that the East is somehow better than the west and will inevitably surpass the west, with places like Japan supposedly being far more technologically oriented than the United States and Europe.

Buttons wrote:
Tau is pretty much the general idea of yellow peril, that the East is somehow better than the west and will inevitably surpass the west, with places like Japan supposedly being far more technologically oriented than the United States and Europe.

Well... Japan did industrialize in a quarter the time of everyone else; and with more efficiency to boot. I've always heard it the other way around though. The whole "White Man's Burden" crap.

EDIT: No, I don't agree with Yellow Peril. Just to specify.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. They're an anime-influenced addition to the game, so there's some tongue-in-cheek "yellowfacing" on the Tau (most notable in non-GW products, like the VA for them in the DoW series), but they are not an item of socio-political commentary from GW on any real-world society or government.

I disagree. The Tau definitely show some, if not all the traits of a startup nation. Not necessarily China, it could be the British of the XVI century, the Americans of the late XIX, early XX centuries or the BRICS of today.

As for the Brave New World debate, while utopian literature and politics certainly factor in, unlike the gene-engineered broods of Huxleys' book Tau castes are not hierarchical. The Tau caste system is probably taken from Plato's "The Republic", and other early european utopian texts, with a bit of confucianism and stereotypes about asian culture added to the mix, and it serves to further the "foreign" and "utopian" themes of the faction.

The underlined, I think is the most important thing here. Not only does this distinguish the Tau from BNW, but also Japan prior to the modern era. Japan never had, as far as I know, a system that stressed the equality of all people. In fact Japan had their own "untouchables" during the feudal era.

To the main point, I think if one culture had to be pinpointed to fit the Tau fluff most fully, China would be my choice.

Shiny, high tech, relatively benevolent space communists with gun drones - the Tau have always reminded me of the Culture.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That GW copyrighted 'Eldar' is something I find is a great irony.

Wait, GW copyrighted the word Eldar...a word they stole from Tolkien? Then how did the Hobbit use the word Eldar in the movie and get away with it? Sorry totally off subject I know.

 ashcroft wrote:
Shiny, high tech, relatively benevolent space communists with gun drones - the Tau have always reminded me of the Culture.

Painfully true.

The Culture novels share a running theme with the Tau: When an idealistic society gets drawn into the game of empires, their ideals no matter how lofty take the backseat to the urgent needs of the moment. Under the façade of a benevolent, progressivist regime, the Culture is not shy to use social engineering, political assassination and even genocide to further its goals. The Tau are certainly less progressive than the Culture, and unlike them they are no superpower but a naïve startup. But through their fluff we're treated to a young idealistic empire that started in radical opposition to every other faction in the setting (no, I don't think their anime-ish hard sci-fi looks are casual) becoming more and more "Grimdark" with each phase of their expansion: From shiny rayguns, sleek hovertanks and claims of peace and unity to coaxing natives to fight in their name, brainwashing and suicide weapons all in the name of conquest and survival.

Another common trait is how easily the enlightened progressivist ideas of both the Culture and the Tau can swiftly become the conceptual weapons of imperialism. The Tau and the Culture in their respective universes think of themselves as the pinnacle of social evolution. "Lesser", "uncivilized", "rogue" cultures are to be assimilated or destroyed. Foreign ideas are anathema. Individuals from other races are allowed in only if they forsake their identity, be it accepting machine rule (in the case of the Idirans) or abjuring the Emperor for the Greater Good (in the case of the Gue'vesa). "Saving" foreigners from themselves and their wicked ways is often enough to justify military action.

Perhaps those, and not some silly yellowface Asian parallel, are the strongest themes running under the Tau: The Imperium presents us with a hopeless nation in perpetual denial, one that clings to a shabby made-up "tradition" assembled from dogmas, half-truths, and accidental (and deliberate) misconceptions about history and human nature in order to postpone the inevitable. In turn, the Tau are also in denial, but their negation of the fundamental truths of the universe comes not of fear but of ignorance, and takes shape of a giant ideological construct born of hubris that barely conceals their greed and lust for power.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. They're an anime-influenced addition to the game, so there's some tongue-in-cheek "yellowfacing" on the Tau (most notable in non-GW products, like the VA for them in the DoW series), but they are not an item of socio-political commentary from GW on any real-world society or government.

I disagree. The Tau definitely show some, if not all the traits of a startup nation. Not necessarily China, it could be the British of the XVI century, the Americans of the late XIX, early XX centuries or the BRICS of today.

America of the 19th century exterminated any culture it encountered in its westward expression, up until we simply got tired of exterminating them and moved them all into concentration camps, er, I mean, reservations. There's no "hey, you seem like you'd fit in pretty good in this part, want to join our new nation?" with the US and the American aboriginal people. We just killed them, as we'd been killing them for four hundred years prior.

And you're nuts if you think GW is trying to make social commentary on real-world entities, ethnicities or organizations. Abso-fething-lutely nuts. GW is a toy company, looking to sell its over-priced wares to as many consumers as possible. They are *not* going to risk insulting one of the fastest-growing economies on the planet by making veiled comments about them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
They are neither Japan nor China. They just have a generic 'Asian' feel, with influences from multiple Asian cultures.

This is how I take them. Like those trade federation guys in the Phantom Menace. You knew it was supposed to be East Asian in a generic sense, but which East Asian...who knows?

The caste system of Brave New World has nothing to do with the Tau. The Ethereals rule, but the other castes are equals. In BNW, every Alpha outranked every Beta, who outranked every Gamma, and so on down the line. The Tau have separate spheres for each Caste, but they have their own internal hierarchies and I believe the practice is for Tau to defer to other castes when dealing in their sphere (on a diplomatic mission the Air Caste will be in charge until they land, at which point the Water Caste take over, and the Fire Caste only assume control if it turns violent). Of course the Ethereals are above and separate.

I don't know enough about the Hindu caste system to compare it, but I thought it, like BNW, featured hierarchy between castes more than within them.

 Psienesis wrote:
America of the 19th century exterminated any culture it encountered in its westward expression, up until we simply got tired of exterminating them and moved them all into concentration camps, er, I mean, reservations. There's no "hey, you seem like you'd fit in pretty good in this part, want to join our new nation?" with the US and the American aboriginal people. We just killed them, as we'd been killing them for four hundred years prior.

Certainly, the US was as harsh towards the natives within its borders as the colonial empires that preceeded it. But beyond its borders America sought out to secure a sphere of influence of its own, displacing the decaying but still powerful European colonial empires whenever it could using a combination of shrewd diplomacy, a keen eye for business and, when necessary, military might, all spiced up with healthy doses of propaganda. Recommended reads: "Flight of the Eagle" by Conrad Black and/or Mark Twain's essays and lectures rallying against 19th-Century American foreign policy.

Some journalists, writers and foreign policy analysts argue that the emergent economies of today are facing a geopolitical situation comparable to that of the post-colonial nations of the late 19th Century. Others go as far as to suggest that China, arguably the most successful of the lot, is taking cues from America's own past in their own rise to superpower status. Frankly, I don't think the Chinese are copying anyone as some of the most sensationalist articles suggest: When you're swimming in a pond of sharks ten times your size but you're not small enough to hide, the wise thing to do is to work hard, make friends with the right guys and pick your fights carefully. It has nothing to do with culture or ethnicity. It's just strategy.

40k frequently resorts to pop history and politics. The Tau as the stereotypical young, vibrant, ambitious nation that manages to outsmart and outmaneouver a foe many times its size through diplomacy and innovation is a trope probably taken from history. From that groundwork, GW built a story pieced together from bits and bobs from a variety of sources including but not limited to sci-fi novels, comic books and movies, then added some distinctly Asian imagery to give some visual exotism to an alien faction whose role is, in most fictional universes, assigned to humans.

And you're nuts if you think GW is trying to make social commentary on real-world entities, ethnicities or organizations. Abso-fething-lutely nuts. GW is a toy company, looking to sell its over-priced wares to as many consumers as possible. They are *not* going to risk insulting one of the fastest-growing economies on the planet by making veiled comments about them.

1) Sure. Because, see, in the real world there's been no organization called "The Inquisition" or a fellow by the name of Torquemada. Political commisars? Those Russians probably found that on Codex: Imperial Guard, and the name stuck. The orks' cockney accent? Like Klingon or Dothraki: Entirely fictional. Now, those references are as close to their real-world originals as TNMT are to Italian Renaissance Artists and Japanese Ninjutsu... But they are references nevertheless.

2) GW is a toy company, but back in the day it was a small games company with a minority following who did a tongue-in-cheek mashup of sci-fi and fantasy tropes sparsed with punk nihilism, painfully obvious political jokes and extreme imagery lifted straight from heavy metal record sleeves, and called it a game. 20 years on, it's been polished and sanitized to appeal to all audiences, but at its core 40k is still a product of British pop culture of the 1980s - A time where being offensive was an asset, not a liability.

Besides, you have to try really hard to expunge all comment from something that uses Frank Herbert's Dune, George Orwell's 1984 and 2000 A. D. as its main sources of inspiration.

3) There's a certain best-selling MMORPG that features giant anthropomorphic pandas in Chinese garb. I'm not saying that's "right" (in fact I find it in poor taste) nor related in any way to GW and the Tau. But it's proof that entertainment companies can and sometimes do sneak some nasty stereotypes past the radar without causing an outrage.

4) Did I insult you? Well, then try not to insult me.

Devious wrote:


1.) The status of Confucianism as a "non-religion religion" in Imperial China parallels the status of the Tau's civil philosophy of the "Greater Good." Few cultural institutions have existed with such a unique status in society: spiritual reverence and yet a secular institution.

They're not that rare. Roman Stoicism is another.

That said, I seriously doubt that the designers of the Tau sat down and researched Chinese (or Roman) history.

Move out the way-Sinologist who just just got back from China here.

To in a very basic way put, Tau have elements of modern/republican era China in them regarding the Empire's trade and equality among races. Other naming references and codex chapter elements also are Chinese inspired (ART OF WAR, for example in the codex) These are undoubted. The Kroot i always saw as the Cambodians, since the Chinese allied with them which lead to a war with Vietnam, i got this from a character in one of the old codexs called "Angor Prok" which is based of the ruined city of Ankor Wat. This points the Tau's politics to be based of China's too.

Yet my personal opinion is that the Tau visually are based of Japanese design and their history is strangely Islamic (Tribes were fighting among a huge desert when out of no-where a prophet(s) comes, gets the tribes together and then within 1000 years the new empire creates superior technology to anybody in the region while conquering lands from a crumbling old empire (the Roman empire who had Syria is the IoM) and like the early Muslims had a "convert or pay tax" rule just like the Tau.

TDLR: The Tau do take lots of influence politics wise from today's China. But since the lore was written well before China became what it is today it may just be coincidence. The Tau take much more background and design from Japanese mecha manga and Islamic history.