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I'm trying to figure out how to fire a squadron of Wyverns from the new AM codex. I think I got most things right, but I'm stumbling on how "twin-linked" interacts with "multiple barrages".

Twin-linked for blasts states: "If the scatter dice does not roll a 'Hit', you can choose to re-roll the dice /.../ you must re-roll both the 2d6 and the scatter dice"

When determining the location first shot it is crystal clear that you get the re-roll, but how about the subsequent rolls according to paragraph two of the multiple barrages rule? Can you re-roll arrows for them as well?

On the one hand it is a scatter dice, on the other hand one could argue these rolls are not a to-hit rolls per se, rather a procedure on how to place the rest of the templates once the to hit roll is dealt with.

Any insights are welcome!

How I've always read it: you can re-roll the subsequent blasts, because you have the ability to re-roll the blast. Since the only die rolled is the scatter die itself, that's what you would re-roll.

Along these lines, given a full squadron of Wyverns with 12 blasts, after placing the first blast, do you roll scatter for (and place) the remaining blasts one at a time or roll all eleven scatter dice at once and place them in any order you desire?

 don_mondo wrote:
Along these lines, given a full squadron of Wyverns with 12 blasts, after placing the first blast, do you roll scatter for (and place) the remaining blasts one at a time or roll all eleven scatter dice at once and place them in any order you desire?

Are they Blasts or Barrage?

If Blast (Not Barrage) the rules for Multiple Blasts are on page 33

If Barrage the rules for Multiple Barrage are on page 34

As all scatter off the first one, you can fast dice roll as order is unimportant

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As all scatter off the first one, you can fast dice roll as order is unimportant

Actually, it IS important, given that hits can be placed off of any previously placed blast. Only arrow scatters must be placed off of the first one. If you fast roll and know where all your arrows of the first blast are and how many hits there are, you can plan your placement as opposed to rolling one at a time and having to place the hits on a lesser selection of blasts. Think about it, if you roll one at a time and the second roll is a hit, not a lot of choices, right?

 don_mondo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As all scatter off the first one, you can fast dice roll as order is unimportant

Actually, it IS important, given that hits can be placed off of any previously placed blast. Only arrow scatters must be placed off of the first one. If you fast roll and know where all your arrows of the first blast are and how many hits there are, you can plan your placement as opposed to rolling one at a time and having to place the hits on a lesser selection of blasts. Think about it, if you roll one at a time and the second roll is a hit, not a lot of choices, right?

Correct, order does matter but only if a Hit is rolled. (As you have noted).

However if the first Blast hits the most models in the unit that any single Blast can hit then any subsequent hits rolled would most assuredly be placed directly over the first Blast marker as you would want to maximize the hits.

if they are barrage though you may want to snipe out a Certain character or model and take less hits

Fragile wrote:
if they are barrage though you may want to snipe out a Certain character or model and take less hits

With a full squadron of Wyverns with 12 blasts it is hardly going to matter...

It certainly would for any unit that will get saves. Ill trade a few less hits for targeting the heavy weapon in a tac squad with the barrage

Yep. Lots of people seem to forget that a multiple barrage is actually supposed to be resolved (for wounds and saves) one blast marker at a time, determining the closest models for casualty removal for each blast marker separately. So if you can center a couple of hits on top of one particular model, that model is where you start taking casualties for those blasts.

It's ridiculously complicated to do it as written, but it can work out very much in the firer's favor if you're willing to process it all out. I generally try to streamline things, as opponents tend to get antsy when you're nitpicking over where you're 11th and 12th hit are allocated specifically.

 don_mondo wrote:
Yep. Lots of people seem to forget that a multiple barrage is actually supposed to be resolved (for wounds and saves) one blast marker at a time, determining the closest models for casualty removal for each blast marker separately. So if you can center a couple of hits on top of one particular model, that model is where you start taking casualties for those blasts.

You can streamline any "hit" in to a set of common pools at least.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Yep. Lots of people seem to forget that a multiple barrage is actually supposed to be resolved (for wounds and saves) one blast marker at a time, determining the closest models for casualty removal for each blast marker separately. So if you can center a couple of hits on top of one particular model, that model is where you start taking casualties for those blasts.

You can streamline any "hit" in to a set of common pools at least.

Sure, one pool for each blast or if you have several exactly on top of each other. Bt if they are displaced from each other then working from the center changes who is closes and possible cover (not an issue in tis case).

But we're straying from my original question into why it might matter areas. So after the first blast is placed, should we roll the remaining scatters all at once or individually?

I thought your question was answered already. You are required to do them individually, and it gives you an advantage to do so, but takes a long time and is often done streamlined.

 Leonus wrote:
I thought your question was answered already. You are required to do them individually, and it gives you an advantage to do so, but takes a long time and is often done streamlined.

You say individually, others are saying all at once................................................ SO which is it?

[EDIT] D'oh. Forgot about multiple barrages. Need more caffeine...

I'd say roll them seperately as a succession of arrows could take a significant amount of the barrage off a target early on.

PanzerLeader wrote:
[EDIT] D'oh. Forgot about multiple barrages. Need more caffeine...

I'd say roll them seperately as a succession of arrows could take a significant amount of the barrage off a target early on.

No it cant.

All Arrows are placed so they are touching the edge of the first marker placed. So even if you have 4 arrows that go left they will go left off of the first marker, not any subsequent markers.

 DeathReaper wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
I'd say roll them seperately as a succession of arrows could take a significant amount of the barrage off a target early on.

No it cant.

All Arrows are placed so they are touching the edge of the first marker placed. So even if you have 4 arrows that go left they will go left off of the first marker, not any subsequent markers.

A succession of hits however, could allow you to hit models quite far from the initial blast.

So for that reason it's important to roll the one at a time.

Course, if you are trying to daisy chain them to a particular location, then rolling them all at once is more beneficial since you can place all the arrows first and then chain your hits as you desire. Even more beneficial with rerolls on the scatters (yes, I know some say you don't get it).

 don_mondo wrote:
Course, if you are trying to daisy chain them to a particular location, then rolling them all at once is more beneficial since you can place all the arrows first and then chain your hits as you desire. Even more beneficial with rerolls on the scatters (yes, I know some say you don't get it).

Yes it's more beneficial, which is often a good indication you're not following the rules correctly

A hit! rolled for the first blast is less useful than one rolled for the forth.

Ya know, that's the point I've been trying to make in our local group.................

I guess at the end of the day this is a TO question
I've been playing it you only re roll first blast marker and subsequent markers cannot be re rolled because the twin linked blast rules state if you reroll you must reroll the scatter and the 2d6

Seems it would be pretty beneficial if you could re roll them all. Almost too beneficial

I was actually talking about rolling all the additional scatters together, but yes, it does apply to the reroll for twin linked as well.

Someone else pointed this out to me regarding the scatter rerolls for 2nd and later blasts:

Scatter
...
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule

Given that, does it affect anyone's opinions on whether or not the 2nd and later blasts can be rerolled?

Nope, my stance is the same, you Reroll all 12 shots if you want to

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, my stance is the same, you Reroll all 12 shots if you want to

I agree with this.

Still the same here,
Permission to Re-Roll a Roll is permission to Re-Roll a Roll.

I'm going to have to disagree.

The roll to position the subsequent marks for a multiple blast are in no way a "to hit" roll (or equivelent). Unless so eons has found a rule stating/suggesting it is?
No is it a Scatter roll (this is defined early in the rules as being 2D6 + scatter die).

So it's not a "to hit" roll, nor is it a "Scatter" (not Scattef and scatter die are seperate things). So any ability that allows re-rolls to these cannot apply to the roll to place these markers.

Additionally, if you look at the Twin-Linked rule it states the 2D6 MUST be re-rolled in addition to the scatter die. There is no 2D6 roll.

So it's not a Scatter, or any form of "to hit" roll.
Can anyone provide a RaW reason why the subsequent markers can get a re-roll? Honestly I wish it could, but I'm seeing no rules support.

What about Twin-Linked Weapons which have a penalty of scattering 3d6, or a bonus to scatter only 1d6?