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JinxDragon wrote:
What about Twin-Linked Weapons which have a penalty of scattering 3d6, or a bonus to scatter only 1d6?

A rule that alters the 2D6?
I'd say any reference to the 2D6 would be altered, including the reference in twin-linked.

But this isn't a Scatter, or a Scatter with altered rules. It's not a Scatter with the 2D6 taken away. It's a single roll of a scatter die, which is a very different thing to a scatter.

 grendel083 wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree.

The roll to position the subsequent marks for a multiple blast are in no way a "to hit" roll (or equivelent). Unless so eons has found a rule stating/suggesting it is?
No is it a Scatter roll (this is defined early in the rules as being 2D6 + scatter die).

So it's not a "to hit" roll, nor is it a "Scatter" (not Scattef and scatter die are seperate things). So any ability that allows re-rolls to these cannot apply to the roll to place these markers.

Additionally, if you look at the Twin-Linked rule it states the 2D6 MUST be re-rolled in addition to the scatter die. There is no 2D6 roll.

So it's not a Scatter, or any form of "to hit" roll.
Can anyone provide a RaW reason why the subsequent markers can get a re-roll? Honestly I wish it could, but I'm seeing no rules support.

I'll start with your 2d6 argument.

Main rulebook, page 6:
Scatter
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule.

So the rule tells us to roll just the scatter and then place the blast based on result, ie "replace the 2d6 with the method listed in the rule". So we replace 2d6 with arrow against initial blast and Hit touching any previously placed blast, ie the method listed in the rule for multiple barrage. Voila, there you go. So yes, reroll that lone scatter die without the 2d6.

And that's all that needs to be said really.

 don_mondo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree.

The roll to position the subsequent marks for a multiple blast are in no way a "to hit" roll (or equivelent). Unless so eons has found a rule stating/suggesting it is?
No is it a Scatter roll (this is defined early in the rules as being 2D6 + scatter die).

So it's not a "to hit" roll, nor is it a "Scatter" (not Scattef and scatter die are seperate things). So any ability that allows re-rolls to these cannot apply to the roll to place these markers.

Additionally, if you look at the Twin-Linked rule it states the 2D6 MUST be re-rolled in addition to the scatter die. There is no 2D6 roll.

So it's not a Scatter, or any form of "to hit" roll.
Can anyone provide a RaW reason why the subsequent markers can get a re-roll? Honestly I wish it could, but I'm seeing no rules support.

I'll start with your 2d6 argument.

Main rulebook, page 6:
Scatter
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule.

So the rule tells us to roll just the scatter and then place the blast based on result, ie "replace the 2d6 with the method listed in the rule". So we replace 2d6 with arrow against initial blast and Hit touching any previously placed blast, ie the method listed in the rule for multiple barrage. Voila, there you go. So yes, reroll that lone scatter die without the 2d6.

And that's all that needs to be said really.

Scatter and scatter die are not the same thing, agreed?
A scatter die is used in a scatter, just as a D6 is used in a to hit roll.

So the rule you quoted would be correct if it was a Scatter that scattered 0". But that's not what the rule says.
The rule states scatter dice (not Scatter), and does not specify a distance of 0".

A terminology argument, how grand, I think I will sit here and see what develops.
Not meaning that as sarcasm either, arguments over fundamentals are far more enlightening then arguments over the Rule as Written.

JinxDragon wrote:
A terminology argument, how grand, I think I will sit here and see what develops.
Not meaning that as sarcasm either, arguments over fundamentals are far more enlightening then arguments over the Rule as Written.

I wouldn't say it's a terminology argument, more of an unhappy naming coincidence that causes problems (gun emplacement weapon nightmare...).

A scatter die is the name of the die in question.
A Scatter is an action involving 3 dice, one of which is a scatter die.

Had they have named it "arrow dice", it would be less of a problem. For example:

Scatter wrote:Roll an arrow dice and 2D6 to determine the direction and distance of scatter in inches

Multiple Barrage wrote:...roll an arrow dice for each other barrage weapon shot....

That would more easily highlight the difference between a scatter die and a Scatter.

Debating if the Terminology is too similar that it is confusion is still a Terminology debate, one that is very common because Game Workshop's love of doing that....
Still not sure it would solve this issue, but I am waiting still to see what others think because it is a very good line of thought.

 grendel083 wrote:


A Scatter is an action involving 3 dice, one of which is a scatter die.

But the above is incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY an action involving 3 dice, but it can be modified (according to the main rulebook, page 6). A scatter does not need to be 3 dice, it can be one or two or four or whatever the scatter rule for that weapon, rule, whatever calls for.

Here's another example for you. I fire my twin-linked (isn't prescience wonderful) Leman Russ Executioner (5 x plasma blasts) at a unit that is within 12" of a servoskull. My scatter is dropped to 1d6 due to the servoskull. Do I get to reroll? I'm not using 2d6................ So the 2d6 argument is a fallacy and incorrect, yes?

 don_mondo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:


A Scatter is an action involving 3 dice, one of which is a scatter die.

But the above is incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY an action involving 3 dice, but it can be modified (according to the main rulebook, page 6). A scatter does not need to be 3 dice, it can be one or two or four or whatever the scatter rule for that weapon, rule, whatever calls for.

You're quite right, a Scatter is normally 3 dice, not necessarily always. However it's still not a Scatter that's being used in this case.

Here's another example for you. I fire my twin-linked (isn't prescience wonderful) Leman Russ Executioner (5 x plasma blasts) at a unit that is within 12" of a servoskull. My scatter is dropped to 1d6 due to the servoskull. Do I get to reroll? I'm not using 2d6................ So the 2d6 argument is a fallacy and incorrect, yes?

Its not a fallacy, no. And a similar question was asked earlier. Your example refers to an actual Scatter, with a modified distance. Again the roll for multiple barrage isn't a Scatter, so the example doesn't relate.
Also slight note: Prescience doesn't grant twin-linked.

With this example, at best you can prove that RaW your Executioner won't get a re-roll (not an option I support I'd like to note).
What your example can't prove, is that you can re-roll the roll for placing subsequent blast markers.

There's a specific word for this, but I can't remember it. Disproving my argument doesn't prove the original statement correct. So even if you disprove my argument of why you can't, you still haven't proved why you can.

It's not any sort of "to hit" roll, nor is it a scatter. So why should it get a re-roll?

From Barrage: "Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

From Twin-linked: TWIN LINKED BLAST WEAPONS

If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast or Large Blast weapon."

Hmmmm, You are told to roll a scatter dice for the subsequent shots, and then twin-linked references a scatter dice roll, not just "scatter". Sounds like it will apply even though the placing of the secondary markers are not a "scatter" .

(Credit to DrTom for pointing this out)

I'm with ya on this don_mondo. This argument came up and was unresolved in the past, but we all missed the rule about replacing 2d6 with whatever is mentioned.

Don_mondo has it correct as far as I can tell.

 don_mondo wrote:
From Barrage: "Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

From Twin-linked: TWIN LINKED BLAST WEAPONS

If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast or Large Blast weapon."

Except you're missing out some very key bits.

Let's start with WHEN can you re-roll?
If a model with the Twin-Linked rule deepstrikes, can you re-roll the scatter then? No. It isn't used any time a scatter die is rolled, only when it's rolled as part of a Scatter when firing a weapon. Agreed?

Rolling a scatter die to place subsequent blast markers is NOT a Scatter. It's never described as a Scatter, it doesn't follow the rules for a Scatter. Nor is it any form of "to hit" roll. Scatter or to hit are the ONLY ways Twin-Linked can grant a re-roll, agreed? And this is neither, so Twin-Linked can't come into play.

Hmmmm, You are told to roll a scatter dice for the subsequent shots, and then twin-linked references a scatter dice roll, not just "scatter". Sounds like it will apply even though the placing of the secondary markers are not a "scatter" .

Of course it references a scatter die. But what was that roll part of? What is it you're re-rolling?
That's right, a Scatter!

You also deliberately missed of part of the rule
"If you choose to do so, you must re-roll both the 2D6 and the scatter dice"
There was no 2D6 rule, because this was not a Scatter.
Which leads on to this point:

 Leonus wrote:
...but we all missed the rule about replacing 2d6 with whatever is mentioned.

Nothing is mentioned. It never states that the distance is replaced.
Yes it's possible to have a Scatter that scatters by a set amount rather than 2D6. The rules state that.
But in the Barrage rule, does it say that the roll in question is a Scatter, with a set value of 0" in place of the 2D6?
No it doesn't. Because it's not a Scatter! It's simply using a die commonly used in a Scatter. So that rule in this case does not apply.

So to sum up, it's not a Scatter nor is it a to hit roll. Since Twin-linked only allows re-rolls for these toe, it can't be used.
The rule mentions a scatter dice. However it does not ever refer to a Scatter. The roll is not a Scatter, so any rules related to a Scatter cannot be used.
So why should they get a re-roll?

Right, of course, there is no "other method listed in the rule" with which to replace the 2d6. Other method. Hmmmm, ya know, it sounds like it doesn't have to be a distance based on the words "other method". Where in that rule do you see other DISTANCE? You don't. You see "other method", like, oh I don't know, maybe placing it touching a previously placed blast marker. That does indeed sound an "other method" to me. But what do I know...................

Do you believe that Scatter (as defined early in the book) and scatter dice are the same thing?

Is everything involving a scatter dice, a Scatter?

 grendel083 wrote:
Do you believe that Scatter (as defined early in the book) and scatter dice are the same thing?

Is everything involving a scatter dice, a Scatter?

Pretty much, yes. I know you disagree in the case of multiple barrage. But also irrelevant since we have a rule that tells us explicitly to reroll the scatter DICE, not the scatter roll.

 don_mondo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Do you believe that Scatter (as defined early in the book) and scatter dice are the same thing?

Is everything involving a scatter dice, a Scatter?

Pretty much, yes. I know you disagree in the case of multiple barrage.

It's not in the case of multiple barrage that I disagree. It's in general.

Pretty much? It's a straight yes or no. It is or it isn't.

A scatter dice is a 6-sided cube that you roll.

A Scatter is a method of rolling 3 dice. 2 being D6, and one being the above mentioned scatter die. And then moving an object or marker the distance/direction indicated.

They absolutely are separate things.

But also irrelevant since we have a rule that tells us explicitly to reroll the scatter DICE, not the scatter roll.

Its not irrelevant at all.

What must you be rolling for the Twin-Linked rule to be called?
A Scatter.

In order to re-roll the scatter die (and 2D6 with you've again left that part of the rule off) you must first have preformed a Scatter.
Since there was no Scatter, you can't re-roll the dice involved.

Incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY a roll of a scatter die and 2d6, but the rule showing that the 2d6 can be replaced by an "other method" has been posted multiple times now. So I'm really not sure why you keep coming back to that statement since it is patently false, as proven by the rules quoted.

So of course I keep leaving it off, because it is irrelevant given that we have a rule (that YOU keep ignoring) saying that the 2d6 can be replaced, and replaced not with a distance but with an "other method". So does multiple barrage give us an "other method" for determining scatter on the 2nd+ blasts. Yes, it does. Combined with the rule that tells us to reroll scatter dice, well, I'm really having a hard time seeing any support for your argument.

So are we just going to agree to disagree and get off this merry-go-round or shall we repeat the same posts for another 6 or 7 pages until a mod locks it? I'll even go first, I'm done unless someone brings something new to the discussion. Feel free to disagree with anything I've said (or agree, up to you). Later.

 don_mondo wrote:
Incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY a roll of a scatter die and 2d6, but the rule showing that the 2d6 can be replaced by an "other method" has been posted multiple times now. So I'm really not sure why you keep coming back to that statement since it is patently false, as proven by the rules quoted.

I apologise, it was short hand. Yes normally it's 2D6 and a scatter die. However the rule doesn't say it's a Scatter, or that the range is being modified, or mention all the Scatter rules it doesn't follow.

So of course I keep leaving it off, because it is irrelevant given that we have a rule (that YOU keep ignoring) saying that the 2d6 can be replaced, and replaced not with a distance but with an "other method". So does multiple barrage give us an "other method" for determining scatter on the 2nd+ blasts. Yes, it does. Combined with the rule that tells us to reroll scatter dice, well, I'm really having a hard time seeing any support for your argument.

The 2D6 of a Scatter can be replaced.
Since this isn't a Scatter (simply the use of a scatter die) that rule has no bearing.

So are we just going to agree to disagree and get off this merry-go-round or shall we repeat the same posts for another 6 or 7 pages until a mod locks it? I'll even go first, I'm done unless someone brings something new to the discussion. Feel free to disagree with anything I've said (or agree, up to you). Later.

I'd just like some rules support that rolling a scatter dice is the same as the game defined term of Scatter.

Or that placing of the subsequent markers is a for of "to hit" roll (you can't use the a Twin-Linked rule to re-roll Deep Strike, so it must be a form to to hit as well as it being a Scatter. It's neither).

I'm sure you can think of other rules that use a scatter die that isn't a Scatter? There used (still is?) Psychic powers that would spin a model/vehicle randomly. Those used a scatter die, but were not a Scatter.

This is just the use of a 6-side cube (called a scatter dice). It is NOT a Scatter (as defined in the "basic principles" section of the rulebook).

Unfortunately I have to side with grendel
As when you roll subsequent blast markers to determine barrage position you only roll the scatter die.
Raw states the only way you can utilize twin link while using a blast marker is when you roll 2d6 + scatter die.
So by raw, you can reroll the first marker, but subsequent markers can not be re rolled as they only roll one dice not 3.
Horribly written rule. I'm a guard player and want to reroll everything!

Can't help it, must respond.

Awestrn wrote:

Raw states the only way you can utilize twin link while using a blast marker is when you roll 2d6 + scatter die.
!

No. It. Doesn't.
That's the default, which can be modified by other rules. Example, if I fire a blast within 12" of a servoskull it only scatters 1d6. If it's twin-linked, it still gets to reroll even tho it only scatters 1d6 instead of the default 2d6. Subsequent blasts on a multiple barrage merely use a set distance (3" in the case of the Wyvern) as opposed to 2d6. See page 6, last bullet point or just read the thread as it is posted several times here.

 don_mondo wrote:
No. It. Doesn't.
That's the default, which can be modified by other rules. Example, if I fire a blast within 12" of a servoskull it only scatters 1d6. If it's twin-linked, it still gets to reroll even tho it only scatters 1d6 instead of the default 2d6. Subsequent blasts on a multiple barrage merely use a set distance (3" in the case of the Wyvern) as opposed to 2d6. See page 6, last bullet point or just read the thread as it is posted several times here.

This isn't a Scatter.
So the rules for a Scatter really have no bearing.

 grendel083 wrote:
The 2D6 of a Scatter can be replaced.

Now show why it cannot be replaced with 0d6.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The 2D6 of a Scatter can be replaced.

Now show why it cannot be replaced with 0d6.

It can.

But the roll to place the blast markers (after the first) isn't a Scatter, so why is that relevent?

"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

"Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

"Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

The first quote is for when you fire a blast/barrage weapon correct?
It allows you to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter, correct?

I've highlighted part of the second quote. Does it say Scatter, or does it say roll a scatter dice?

There's a big difference between Scatter and a scatter dice. One is an action involving 3 dice and the movement of a marker. The other is a dice.

So since you've provided a quote showing we are not dealing with a Scatter (the second quote, as highlighted), then how is the ability to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter relevant?

It's like quoting this rule for a leadership test, just because it mentions a 2D6. If it's not a Scattering blast weapon being fired, then the rule isn't used.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

"Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

The first quote is for when you fire a blast/barrage weapon correct?
It allows you to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter, correct?

Yes.
As it states, it allows you to reroll the scatter dice and the 2d6.

I've highlighted part of the second quote. Does it say Scatter, or does it say roll a scatter dice?

Scatter dice.

There's a big difference between Scatter and a scatter dice. One is an action involving 3 dice and the movement of a marker. The other is a dice.

So since you've provided a quote showing we are not dealing with a Scatter (the second quote, as highlighted), then how is the ability to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter relevant?

Because it explicitly states you reroll the scatter dice?

It's like quoting this rule for a leadership test, just because it mentions a 2D6. If it's not a Scattering blast weapon being fired, then the rule isn't used.

Actually it is a scattering blast weapon being fired, it says so right there in the quote - " roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

I would actually agree with Grendel here, even though i have always read, and played it like the rest of us.

"roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage" is not the same as "Roll a Scatter with 0D6"

One is rolling Scatter, the other is rolling another dice, it may even have barrage saying "Roll a D20" - it's not a Scatter even though you are using that white Dice

The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rule explicitly states you re-roll the scatter dice.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Because it explicitly states you reroll the scatter dice?

As part of what? What is it it's allowing you to re-roll?
A Scatter! You're re-rolling the dice involved in a Scatter.

So if the scatter dice was not used in a Scatter, how can you use a rule for re-rolling Scatters? You can't.
It also explicitly states you re-roll 2D6. Does that mean you can use it to re-roll a Leadership test? Because that's exactly the sort of thing you're trying to do. Using a rule that doesn't apply, just because it mentions the same dice used.

Actually it is a scattering blast weapon being fired, it says so right there in the quote - " roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

Placing the initial blast is a Scatter. Absolutely no doubt there.
Placing the subsequent blasts is NOT a Scatter. You quoted it before, you even said yourself it says "roll a scatter dice" and not "Scatter".

scatter dice =/= Scatter


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rule explicitly states you re-roll the scatter dice.

You can only re-roll them if you were rolling a Scatter in the first place.

You weren't. So you can't.

The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.