Twin-linked multiple barrage question.

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**grendel083**

PrinceRaven wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?
A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

Once again, prove it.

You mean Prove it again?

You yourself have agreed that the roll mentioned in the twin-linked rule is a Scatter. The rule says that is the dice that is being re-rolled.

The roll to place a subsequent marker isn't a Scatter, and wasn't used in a Scatter. You also agreed it wasn't described as a Scatter, and follows none of the rules for a Scatter.

So how can you re-roll the dice that arn't part of a Scatter, using a rule that lets you re-roll a Scatter?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:
Like I say, that's where we disagree and we're not going to change each others minds....................

Can you at least provide any rules support that a Scatter and rolling a single scatter dice are the same thing?

I'm just curious as to why you think they are the same.

**PrinceRaven**

grendel083 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?
A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

Once again, prove it.
You mean Prove it again?

You yourself have agreed that the roll mentioned in the twin-linked rule is a Scatter. The rule says that is the dice that is being re-rolled.

I agreed that the rule references Scatters as that is the most common time in which you will be rolling a scatter die and/or 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, I did not agree that this means the rule only applies to Scatters and have since asked you to prove that it does.

**grendel083**

PrinceRaven wrote:
I agreed that the rule references Scatters as that is the most common time in which you will be rolling a scatter die and/or 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, I did not agree that this means the rule only applies to Scatters and have since asked you to prove that it does.

Well we're at a stand-still then.

Since you equally can't prove it refers to anything other than Scatter used to place a marker.

**PrinceRaven**

I can indeed:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

It applies when you are firing a blast weapon and have the ability to re-roll to hit rolls.

**grendel083**

PrinceRaven wrote:
I can indeed:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

It applies when you are firing a blast weapon and have the ability to re-roll to hit rolls.

Except there was no 2D6 roll with this. It's not a Scatter, so you can't claim the "modified distance clause".
If you re-roll only the scatter die, you're breaking the rule.

Clearly it cannot be refering to the single roll of a scatter die.

**PrinceRaven**

If I cast Enfeeble on a Rhino it does not reduce strength and toughness but does treat all difficult terrain as dangerous.

Same principle applies, when you can't apply all of the effects of a rule you apply as many of them as you can.

**grendel083**

Again this is purely on the assumption that rule is not refering solely to the Scatter. You're relying on the vagueness of a sentence, which the context doesn't agree with.

**PrinceRaven**

I thought this was a RAW discussion, not RAI.

**grendel083**

PrinceRaven wrote:
I thought this was a RAW discussion, not RAI.

You don't believe context is RaW?

It lets you know what a rule is refering to. Without context the rules simply wouldn't work.

**PrinceRaven**

I believe that rules as written means looking at the rules as they written and using them in such a way, rather than claiming because of the context they were intended to be used a different way.

I'd be happy to go into rules as intended arguments though, if you wish.

**grendel083**

PrinceRaven wrote:
I believe that rules as written means looking at the rules as they written and using them in such a way, rather than claiming because of the context they were intended to be used a different way.

You still need context.

For example:
There's a rule about rolling dice. It's under the shooting section concerning hitting a target.
The context is "rolling to hit" but if it simply refers to rolls, and you don't apply the context, then it could be used in any situation involing a dice roll.

Context is part of the language used to write the rules, it should not be ignored.

**Rweidner**

After hearing the arguments, I am convinced there is no clear ruling, after searching for TO rulings and coming up empty I have decided to make a decision based solely on least harm done. I crunched the numbers for average scatter distance of blast weapons and multiple barrage weapons (using small blast to ensure the lowest multiple barrage distance scattered is used) with and with out twin linked for BS 3 and BS 4 and compared both methods. The TL rule grants blast weapons a 1/3 bonus to accuracy this will be considered the base accuracy increase to blast weapons because most people agree on how TL should affect blast weapons with scatter.

Without re-rolling subsequent blast markers in a multiple barrage the TL rule gives only a 21% and 18% increase to multiple barrage weapons with BS 3 and BS 4 respectively. This is about a 36% detriment to TL multiple barrage accuracy bonus.

Allowing multiple barrages to re-roll all multiple blast markers provides a 47% and 45% increase to accuracy to BS 3 and BS 4 multiple barrages respectively. This results in about a 26% detriment to blast accuracy bonus.

Because multiple barrages are less accurate on average than their blast counterparts I am inclined to rule in favor of them in this case, as the additional increase in accuracy from TL actually makes them comparable to the accuracy of twin linked blasts.

anyway here is the XLS i used, maybe there is some error in there, it did get quite sloppy near the end.

**Ghaz**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205120.page#1010712

**TheProgram**

Luckily this whole conundrum isnt relevant any more since the 7th edition rules for Twin Linking dont ever use the call "scatter" thus we dont have to discuss if the multi barage scatter dice roll is a real scatter or just something that happens to be named similiar.