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HELP!, I need to know if a Barrage weapon is fired at a unit underneath a Skyshield (whilst still being within LoS and range of weapon) does it also hit the models on top that are still effectively under the template?... As the rules for multiple levels are under 'Ruins' and the Skyshield is not a 'building' or 'ruin' but 'Unique' terrain that is 'Open' terrain on the top would all models under the template be hit and or do the models underneath gain a cover save from the blast... Also what cover save is given from the top furlings (closed), as the Skyshield has neither battlements, is not barricades, building or a defence line and once again is counted as 'Open' terrain on top... If it is obscuring cover could they get a +2 for going to ground...

If a model is under the Blast Marker then it is hit.

The rules for ruins do not come into play at the Skyshield is not a ruin.

You hit the models on top of and underneath the Skyshield.

RAW, DeathReaper has it.

HIWPI, I'd treat it like a ruin.

 Cheexsta wrote:
RAW, DeathReaper has it.

HIWPI, I'd treat it like a ruin.

Yes. I would really like to know what was going through their heads when they decided to label it terrain instead of ruins/building/structure.

Those are all Terrain.

the cover save is debated, but most seem to settle for a 4+ cover save from the walls. As it's not area terrain, you only get +1 for going to ground on the shield.

just hit the models on top of the shield, don't be that guy.

I'm just trying to work it all out fairly, I think it needs to be in a new FAQ... I'm convinced that you would choose either the top or the bottom for things like Battlecannons, some could argue a Mortar for example would not have the angle of fire and hence not be able to target lower models... But as I'm about to enter into a massive tournament, I wanna know if I'm going to be refused the right to shoot at the underneath models, can't just single certain weapons out based on how they could possibly fire...

Your best bet then is to check with the TO, as he's the only one who could tell you how he will rule it.

sirlynchmob wrote:
the cover save is debated, but most seem to settle for a 4+ cover save from the walls. As it's not area terrain, you only get +1 for going to ground on the shield.

just hit the models on top of the shield, don't be that guy.

3+ cover save, because it's a fortification? That's how we play it.

HIWPI: you only hit the top lvl with barrage, as otherwise it would rate right up there with other silly things that are RAW but obviously not right.

Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
HIWPI: you only hit the top lvl with barrage, as otherwise it would rate right up there with other silly things that are RAW but obviously not right.

Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

No, but I don't think there's a RAW argument, only an RAI to be made here. We simply don't have enough rules to understand the skyshield.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

Cover from barrage is determined from the center of the marker. So yes, if you place the marker over the shyshield, models underneath would receive a cover save as the floor of the pad is between them and the center of the marker.

 insaniak wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

Cover from barrage is determined from the center of the marker. So yes, if you place the marker over the shyshield, models underneath would receive a cover save as the floor of the pad is between them and the center of the marker.

So the Wyvern unit dropping 12 blasts with re-rolls to wound and ignore cover should clear out that sky shield pretty quick?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

Cover from barrage is determined from the center of the marker. So yes, if you place the marker over the shyshield, models underneath would receive a cover save as the floor of the pad is between them and the center of the marker.

So the Wyvern unit dropping 12 blasts with re-rolls to wound and ignore cover should clear out that sky shield pretty quick?

-Matt

No, since the sky shield gives a 4++.

 insaniak wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

Cover from barrage is determined from the center of the marker. So yes, if you place the marker over the shyshield, models underneath would receive a cover save as the floor of the pad is between them and the center of the marker.

if you place the marker over the skyshield, models under it would not be in LOS so no wounds would be allocated to it.

No matter what else, you either hit the top, or the bottom. wounds will not be allocated to both.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

Cover from barrage is determined from the center of the marker. So yes, if you place the marker over the shyshield, models underneath would receive a cover save as the floor of the pad is between them and the center of the marker.

if you place the marker over the skyshield, models under it would not be in LOS so no wounds would be allocated to it.

No matter what else, you either hit the top, or the bottom. wounds will not be allocated to both.

LoS has no impact on determining cover from a barrage.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

Cover from barrage is determined from the center of the marker. So yes, if you place the marker over the shyshield, models underneath would receive a cover save as the floor of the pad is between them and the center of the marker.

if you place the marker over the skyshield, models under it would not be in LOS so no wounds would be allocated to it.

No matter what else, you either hit the top, or the bottom. wounds will not be allocated to both.

LoS has no impact on determining cover from a barrage.

Out of site, if you can't draw LOS of site to the marker, you can't allocate wounds to them as the wound pool empties.

there is no way to wound models on the top and bottom of the skyshield with one marker.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Though is there an argument to be made that if models under itget hit like ones on it, then they get the 4++ as well?

Cover from barrage is determined from the center of the marker. So yes, if you place the marker over the shyshield, models underneath would receive a cover save as the floor of the pad is between them and the center of the marker.

if you place the marker over the skyshield, models under it would not be in LOS so no wounds would be allocated to it.

No matter what else, you either hit the top, or the bottom. wounds will not be allocated to both.

LoS has no impact on determining cover from a barrage.

Out of site, if you can't draw LOS of site to the marker, you can't allocate wounds to them as the wound pool empties.

there is no way to wound models on the top and bottom of the skyshield with one marker.

I hadn't thought of that. But this is true and might be why they never bothered to flesh out the rule.

In ruins, there are ruins where if the marker hits one level, models on a different level could still be under the marker and in LOS of the center hole. So they add the bit about only hitting the top level under the hole.

In other buildings and terrain. If LOS is blocked from the center hole, no wounds could be allocated. So you could only hit the upper level.

I hadn't thought about having to check LOS from the center hole and that solves the whole issue.

Except Barrage weapons do not need Line of Sight as they can fire indirectly.

Therefore you can wound models both on top of and under the Skyshield with a barrage weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Barrage weapons do not need Line of Sight as they can fire indirectly.

Therefore you can wound models both on top of and under the Skyshield with a barrage weapon.

Permission to fire != permission to allocate wounds.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Barrage weapons do not need Line of Sight as they can fire indirectly.

Therefore you can wound models both on top of and under the Skyshield with a barrage weapon.

Permission to fire != permission to allocate wounds.

So the rule is useless?

No thanks.

I'll take the interpretation that allows a barrage to be fired at and kill guys in the target unit even if the unit is out of Line of Sight.

Otherwise things like Hive guard and the Tau missiles that do not need Line of Sight are useless when firing at targets out of Line of Sight s well, and why give them the ability to fire at a unit out of Line of Sight if you can not wound them, it is just wasted ink if that is the case.

If they can fire at a target unit out of line of sight they will be able to wound and kill models in the target unit that are out of Line of sight. That is the only way that provision is actually not wasted ink.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Barrage weapons do not need Line of Sight as they can fire indirectly.

Therefore you can wound models both on top of and under the Skyshield with a barrage weapon.

Permission to fire != permission to allocate wounds.

So the rule is useless?

No thanks.

I'll take the interpretation that allows a barrage to be fired at and kill guys in the target unit even if the unit is out of Line of Sight.

Otherwise things like Hive guard and the Tau missiles that do not need Line of Sight are useless when firing at targets out of Line of Sight s well, and why give them the ability to fire at a unit out of Line of Sight if you can not wound them, it is just wasted ink if that is the case.

If they can fire at a target unit out of line of sight they will be able to wound and kill models in the target unit that are out of Line of sight. That is the only way that provision is actually not wasted ink.

Their saying you can be out of LOS from the firing unit, because you use LOS from the center of the marker.

LOS from the marker allows things to be hit and wounded from the marker, not the firing unit which may be totally out of LOS.

barrage weapons don't need LOS to fire, but a blast marker is not a barrage weapon, it uses LOS to hit and wound.

This is what the rule is going for.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Barrage weapons do not need Line of Sight as they can fire indirectly.

Therefore you can wound models both on top of and under the Skyshield with a barrage weapon.

Permission to fire != permission to allocate wounds.

So the rule is useless?

No thanks.

I'll take the interpretation that allows a barrage to be fired at and kill guys in the target unit even if the unit is out of Line of Sight.

Otherwise things like Hive guard and the Tau missiles that do not need Line of Sight are useless when firing at targets out of Line of Sight s well, and why give them the ability to fire at a unit out of Line of Sight if you can not wound them, it is just wasted ink if that is the case.

If they can fire at a target unit out of line of sight they will be able to wound and kill models in the target unit that are out of Line of sight. That is the only way that provision is actually not wasted ink.

Not at all true. But we've had this debate before (and I thought you were on the opposite side before) so I'm going to ball this up and throw it into the giant bag of "I'll stop caring." Have a great day!

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Barrage weapons do not need Line of Sight as they can fire indirectly.

Therefore you can wound models both on top of and under the Skyshield with a barrage weapon.

Permission to fire != permission to allocate wounds.

So the rule is useless?

No thanks.

I'll take the interpretation that allows a barrage to be fired at and kill guys in the target unit even if the unit is out of Line of Sight.

Otherwise things like Hive guard and the Tau missiles that do not need Line of Sight are useless when firing at targets out of Line of Sight s well, and why give them the ability to fire at a unit out of Line of Sight if you can not wound them, it is just wasted ink if that is the case.

If they can fire at a target unit out of line of sight they will be able to wound and kill models in the target unit that are out of Line of sight. That is the only way that provision is actually not wasted ink.

You are confusing LOS required to fire, which barrage do not use, with LOS to wound.

Barrage does use LOS to wound, but with its own special rule.
LOS to wound is drawn from the center of the blast marker. If you can't draw LOS from the center of the marker a wound can't be allocated.

Now please demonstrate how you place the marker on top of the landing pad and draw LOS from the marker to models under the landing pad.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

Now please demonstrate how you place the marker on top of the landing pad and draw LOS from the marker to models under the landing pad.

Well, you can model the hatches in the pad as open with ladders down


But yeah. Rule seems to be as described with no problems- no way to wound models on both top and bottom of the pad.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are confusing LOS required to fire, which barrage do not use, with LOS to wound.

I am not confusing anything.

If you do not need Line of Sight to target a unit with a blast marker with the barrage quality, but you still need Line of Sight to allocate wounds, then the rule that lets you target a unit out of Line of Sight is wasted ink.

All of the rules in the BRB do something. They do not write rules that do nothing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are confusing LOS required to fire, which barrage do not use, with LOS to wound.

I am not confusing anything.

If you do not need Line of Sight to target a unit with a blast marker with the barrage quality, but you still need Line of Sight to allocate wounds, then the rule that lets you target a unit out of Line of Sight is wasted ink.

All of the rules in the BRB do something. They do not write rules that do nothing.

and the shot comes from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model.

so all the rules for LOS and wound allocation apply.

Plus if you want to be picky, the models under the shield are out of range as well from the small blasts (1.5"). and almost always from even the large blast as it needs more than 2" just to get to the top of most models. so you might get one. but then you can't see it anyways.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are confusing LOS required to fire, which barrage do not use, with LOS to wound.

I am not confusing anything.

If you do not need Line of Sight to target a unit with a blast marker with the barrage quality, but you still need Line of Sight to allocate wounds, then the rule that lets you target a unit out of Line of Sight is wasted ink.

All of the rules in the BRB do something. They do not write rules that do nothing.

You're still getting it wrong.

You normally need LoS to target and fire a weapon. Barrage allows you to ignore this.

Wounding with barrage treats the direction of the shot as being from the center of the blast marker- so you measure LoS for wounding from it. If you can't see the model from the centre of the blast marker, you can't wound it.

Two distinct and different cases.

That interpretation breaks Tau missiles and Hive guard.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That interpretation breaks Tau missiles and Hive guard.

did they update the wording for the hive guard?

But either way saying barrages breaks them, that's just like saying because ork boys can't shoot models out of LOS, that interpretation breaks Tau missiles and Hive guard.

they are two totally different situations. barrages use the center hole for LOS, just like any other model uses it's "eyes" for LOS.