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 Brachiaraidos wrote:
Wounding with barrage treats the direction of the shot as being from the center of the blast marker- so you measure LoS for wounding from it. If you can't see the model from the centre of the blast marker, you can't wound it.

One simple question: how far above the surface of the table is the center of the blast marker? Please cite specific rules when answering.


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sirlynchmob wrote:
Plus if you want to be picky, the models under the shield are out of range as well from the small blasts (1.5"). and almost always from even the large blast as it needs more than 2" just to get to the top of most models. so you might get one. but then you can't see it anyways.

A blast marker is effectively a cylinder that covers everything underneath the initial circle. It is NOT a sphere that measures a radius from a single point. If the blast marker is sitting on top of the platform (or 10' above the table) it will cover everything underneath it all the way down to the surface of the table.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That interpretation breaks Tau missiles and Hive guard.

Not true.
Barrage even has a special rule that allows you to draw LoS from the center of the blast.
Can the center of the blast see through the floor of the Skyshield?

Yes, you can fire over there. Yes, you can allocate wounds over there because you're told to draw LoS from the center of the blast.

Cite permission to wound through terrain you cannot see through.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
Wounding with barrage treats the direction of the shot as being from the center of the blast marker- so you measure LoS for wounding from it. If you can't see the model from the centre of the blast marker, you can't wound it.

One simple question: how far above the surface of the table is the center of the blast marker? Please cite specific rules when answering.


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sirlynchmob wrote:
Plus if you want to be picky, the models under the shield are out of range as well from the small blasts (1.5"). and almost always from even the large blast as it needs more than 2" just to get to the top of most models. so you might get one. but then you can't see it anyways.

A blast marker is effectively a cylinder that covers everything underneath the initial circle. It is NOT a sphere that measures a radius from a single point. If the blast marker is sitting on top of the platform (or 10' above the table) it will cover everything underneath it all the way down to the surface of the table.

You mean everything it can see.

we still start with "get a good look" with no permission to ignore the normal wounding and LOS requirements.

so what do you do, keep lifting the marker til you can get a clear LOS over walls?

From the pictures we can see they rest the markers on top of the models to help get a really good look.

blasts, wound and save as normal. including OOS.
barrage use the rules for blasts, and use the center hole for wound allocation. ie still using wound and save as normal, including OOS.

I love the Skyshield. and all of the great debates it spawns. As best I can tell If you are targeting a unit on the upper level with a blast, that blast will not affect a unit below the solid floor. This does not effect Hiveguard because they don't use blast markers. if your opponent has the top level full as well as models hiding underneath then your game just got easier as a large part of his army is in a very concentrated area instead of spread out.

Speaking of the SSLP how do you deal with a Mawloc tunneling up below the SSLP?

Hive guard and smart missiles RAW wise are broken without any help from barrage rules.

They are broken because nothing tells you to ignore LOS for wounding.

Barrage rules have nothing in common with this as barrage tells you it does use LOS, but LOS is determined from the whole in the marker for wounding.

theunicorn wrote:
I love the Skyshield. and all of the great debates it spawns. As best I can tell If you are targeting a unit on the upper level with a blast, that blast will not affect a unit below the solid floor. This does not effect Hiveguard because they don't use blast markers. if your opponent has the top level full as well as models hiding underneath then your game just got easier as a large part of his army is in a very concentrated area instead of spread out.

Speaking of the SSLP how do you deal with a Mawloc tunneling up below the SSLP?

Any place a model cannot fit, it cannot be.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are confusing LOS required to fire, which barrage do not use, with LOS to wound.

I am not confusing anything.

If you do not need Line of Sight to target a unit with a blast marker with the barrage quality, but you still need Line of Sight to allocate wounds, then the rule that lets you target a unit out of Line of Sight is wasted ink.

All of the rules in the BRB do something. They do not write rules that do nothing.

Firng indirectly means you can lob a round at your target.

By your definition, you could have a thunderfire cannon in a building, with a ceiling over your head and shoot a target on the other side of the table.

No!

What it means is that you can fire an indirect weapon, from behind and obstacle. You don't need line of sight to fire a mortar in real life, but if you're shooting a mortar at a target on the first floor of a 3 story building, your impact is going to be the roof.

Unless you have a round set to penetrate a structure

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Firng indirectly means you can lob a round at your target.

By your definition, you could have a thunderfire cannon in a building, with a ceiling over your head and shoot a target on the other side of the table.

No!

Actually this is perfectly acceptable by the RAW, as long as the building that the TFC is in has a fire point that the TFC can use to draw Line of Sight to the target unit. (and the TFC is allowed somehow in a building).

Johnnytorrance wrote:
By your definition, you could have a thunderfire cannon in a building, with a ceiling over your head and shoot a target on the other side of the table.

Well, aside from the fact that the Thunderfire cannon can't be in a building, yes...

Johnnytorrance wrote:
What it means is that you can fire an indirect weapon, from behind and obstacle. You don't need line of sight to fire a mortar in real life, but if you're shooting a mortar at a target on the first floor of a 3 story building, your impact is going to be the roof.

Realism is irrelevant. Not only is this YMDC, where realism arguments are banned, the barrage rules in 40k are already stupid and unrealistic (complete lack of understanding of what indirect/direct fire and minimum ranges). What "should" happen in the "real" world matters about as much as the argument that a Tyranid MC should collapse under its own weight, all that matters is the rules for barrage weapons. And those rules clearly state that the "only hits models on one level" rule only applies to multi-level ruins. And the Skyshield is not a ruin of any kind.

May you may target a unit under a sky shield? Yes

Even if you can't see them? Yes

If the hole of the blast marker ends up on top of the sky shield will it hit the models below? In my OPINION, no you may not. This seems evident from the barrage rules. Calling the SSLP "terrain" or "ruins" should make no difference. If you have multi-level terrain (like a cavern in a hill side) your models would be immune from the indirect fire of a barrage unless it scatters to their level. But I'm a reasonable guy. Convince me.

 doktor_g wrote:
Convince me.

The rules say "multi-level ruin", not "multi-level terrain of any kind". There's really no debate here, the rules for only hitting models on one level very clearly only apply to multi-level ruins.

Nevermind. I just re-read the barrage rules. I'm no longer reasonable. Hah! The bolded text says only "level". Not "terrain". Not "ruin". Not "building". Not "fortification."


What I stated above is HIWPI, RAW and RAI.

Also the TFC to my knowledge doesn't have to have an open sky to fire. AFAIK.


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@Peregrine. It gives "ruin" as an example of "structure". The bolded text is germain.

 doktor_g wrote:
Also the TFC to my knowledge doesn't have to have an open sky to fire. AFAIK.

What does this matter? Where is having an open sky to fire defined in the rules, and where is it needed?

In the example above the TFC in a building can fire if it has a fire point that can draw Line of Sight (And if somehow the TFC could be in the building in the first place).

Oh and it doesn't say multi level ruin. BRB pg 100.


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Ok. Reaper, there is no limitation on a TFC going in a building. Not going to argue so that's it. Gotta stop coming to this forum.

 doktor_g wrote:
Oh and it doesn't say multi level ruin. BRB pg 100.

Yes it does, right there on page 100... It is literally the first words in the first graph.

"Multi-level ruins require certain conventions and clarifications to ensure that Template, Blast or Large Blast weapons behave in a consistent fashion, and to keep the game moving." (100)

The section on page 100 it talking about ruins and giving additional rules for when you are firing Template, Blast or large Blast weapons at models in a ruin.

You all also forgot the other unit that can target things it can't see but really has no permission to wound them. The Gk Purg squad. Someone did try and tell that they couldn't wound anything they couldn't see and I just looked at them and continued on. They dropped it. I guess they were testing the waters for weakness.

 Peregrine wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
What it means is that you can fire an indirect weapon, from behind and obstacle. You don't need line of sight to fire a mortar in real life, but if you're shooting a mortar at a target on the first floor of a 3 story building, your impact is going to be the roof.

Realism is irrelevant. Not only is this YMDC, where realism arguments are banned, the barrage rules in 40k are already stupid and unrealistic (complete lack of understanding of what indirect/direct fire and minimum ranges). What "should" happen in the "real" world matters about as much as the argument that a Tyranid MC should collapse under its own weight, all that matters is the rules for barrage weapons. And those rules clearly state that the "only hits models on one level" rule only applies to multi-level ruins. And the Skyshield is not a ruin of any kind.

Ok, now draw line of sight from models on one level where the marker impacts to models on another level to allocate the wounds. If LOS cant be drawn, the wound pool empties.

 doktor_g wrote:

Ok. Reaper, there is no limitation on a TFC going in a building. Not going to argue so that's it. Gotta stop coming to this forum.

Buildings follow the same embarking rules as vehicles. Only infantry can enter. The TFC is not infantry.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ok, now draw line of sight from models on one level where the marker impacts to models on another level to allocate the wounds. If LOS cant be drawn, the wound pool empties.

There is no such thing as a "level where the marker impacts" unless you're dealing with multi-level ruins (which the Skyshield is not).

theunicorn wrote:
I love the Skyshield. and all of the great debates it spawns. As best I can tell If you are targeting a unit on the upper level with a blast, that blast will not affect a unit below the solid floor. This does not effect Hiveguard because they don't use blast markers. if your opponent has the top level full as well as models hiding underneath then your game just got easier as a large part of his army is in a very concentrated area instead of spread out.

Speaking of the SSLP how do you deal with a Mawloc tunneling up below the SSLP?

step 1. forget below, tunnel onto the skyshield.
step 2. lots of chaos and dead models.
step 3. profit

 Peregrine wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ok, now draw line of sight from models on one level where the marker impacts to models on another level to allocate the wounds. If LOS cant be drawn, the wound pool empties.

There is no such thing as a "level where the marker impacts" unless you're dealing with multi-level ruins (which the Skyshield is not).

Forget the ruins.

You are instructed to use LOS from the center of the marker. So please demonstrate how you place the blast marker so that you have LOS from the center of it and hit models on both floors of a landing pad....

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ok, now draw line of sight from models on one level where the marker impacts to models on another level to allocate the wounds. If LOS cant be drawn, the wound pool empties.

There is no such thing as a "level where the marker impacts" unless you're dealing with multi-level ruins (which the Skyshield is not).

Forget the ruins.

You are instructed to use LOS from the center of the marker. So please demonstrate how you place the blast marker so that you have LOS from the center of it and hit models on both floors of a landing pad....

X-ray vision.

My personal take on this is to decide based on the weapon itself. If it's artillery style weapons that fire up and come crashing down from the sky, then I would count it as a ruin, if it's more of a direct fire gun then I treat it accordingly.

Rules as they make the most sense irl even though its a ridiculous game.

Ratmtmsirletiarg. Its a new thing

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are instructed to use LOS from the center of the marker. So please demonstrate how you place the blast marker so that you have LOS from the center of it and hit models on both floors of a landing pad....

I will once you can tell me how high off the table the center of the marker is, how you determine that location, and which rules you are using to provide this answer.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are instructed to use LOS from the center of the marker. So please demonstrate how you place the blast marker so that you have LOS from the center of it and hit models on both floors of a landing pad....

I will once you can tell me how high off the table the center of the marker is, how you determine that location, and which rules you are using to provide this answer.

so you're saying, because you don't know how high to place the marker, it can see through solid objects?

Or are you trying to make a case that you can place the marker 2 feet above the table so if you scatter 12" you can move 12" downward slightly in the direction of the arrow so you never miss?

Do you need some more straws?

In the end, where you and your opponent agree the blast marker is, LOS is from that point. and using the normal rules for wounding, if you can't see it, you can't wound it.

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Blast rules:

Due to parallax you can only hold the blast marker just high enough so the center hole is over the base of the target model. But not so high as the center hole covers more than one model, nor exceeded the range of the weapon firing the blast.

Now how do you draw LOS through a opaque barrier?

I'm glad someone used the word parallax in the context of blast markers other than me. Thanks lynch. You've reaffirmed my high opinion of wargamers.



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@ Insaniak: Regarding buildings and the TFC: thanks for pointing that out. BRB pg93


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Ugh.... I can't stay away....

@Peregrine: so you think that Barrages ignore "structures" lying over targeted models? Seems to me it would extend to caverns, buildings, void shields (blatant trolling - you should ignore), bunkers, canvas netting, etc. The BRB says "structures" not just ruins.

In the end our local TO has decided to follow the Australian Tournament Championship rules, Barrage only hits models on top, Ordinance targets models either on top or bottom, but not both... The Furlings offer a 4+ cover when the Skyshield is Furled, which only offers +1 when going to ground (Barricade)...
The models underneath do not receive the 4++ as they are not within the top of the Skyshield which is what offers the invunerable save... It is 'open' terrain so models on top would only receive the 4++...

sirlynchmob wrote:
so you're saying, because you don't know how high to place the marker, it can see through solid objects?

Or are you trying to make a case that you can place the marker 2 feet above the table so if you scatter 12" you can move 12" downward slightly in the direction of the arrow so you never miss?

No, my point is that trying to resolve a blast weapon in 3d is impossible because GW wrote the rules on the assumption that they only consider 2d distance/overlapping. The only way to make the rules function in any sensible way is to treat the blast template as an infinite-height cylinder, and draw cover LOS from its infinite-length axis. Therefore, assuming no other cover involved, both the models on the top and the models on the bottom would be in open terrain relative to the template.

In the end, where you and your opponent agree the blast marker is, LOS is from that point. and using the normal rules for wounding, if you can't see it, you can't wound it.

Please cite a rule allowing you and your opponent to agree on how high above the table it is, which would imply that you have a choice of heights available.

Due to parallax you can only hold the blast marker just high enough so the center hole is over the base of the target model. But not so high as the center hole covers more than one model, nor exceeded the range of the weapon firing the blast.

Could you cite a page number for this rule? I'm having trouble finding it.


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 doktor_g wrote:
The BRB says "structures" not just ruins.

Yes, it says "structure" as a bit of fluff to describe what happens when a barrage weapon hits a ruin. However these rules very clearly state that they only apply when targeting models in multi-level ruins, and cease to apply if the template lands over non-ruin terrain instead.

Well being a permissive rule set. I would think it is you that needs to provide a page number saying barrages pass through soilid structures.