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 Nilok wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"out of sight", not site.

From FAQ 1.5
Page 33 – Blast & Large Blast, Line of Sight
Add to the end of the final paragraph: “Remember to keep the wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule in their own wound pool, and that wounds from this pool can be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit”.

So the CLEAR RAW is that EVERY model under the blast marker is hit, as the SSLP is not a Ruin.

That isn't what that says. It says that wounds can be allocated even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit. It isn't saying that it can assign wounds to models outside of the blast's LoS as measured from the hole, only if it lands behind a wall that the attacking unit can't see through.

Except you're wrong, as you're told which exceptions to follow, and where you allocate wounds IS one. So you can allocate wounds out of line of sight of the central hole

 DeathReaper wrote:
In the context of the FaQ about Line of Sight, The attacking unit = The blast's LoS as measured from the hole as the hole is where the shot comes from with barrage.

I think you are misreading the FAQ unless you are arguing that the hole is a model.

"...even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

who here would argue that if you made a piece of scenery that was similar to a ruin, but clearly in a decent state of repair so not a ruin, you'd ignore the rules?

the argument that you can hit the models under the skyshield hangs on a single word in the entire rules system for barrage weapons; Ruins.
You'd be the ones who argue that ignores cover has no effect shooting vehicles, as they have the specific term 'Wounds', or that a soul-grinder doesn't get a save as invulnerable saves are taken against 'Wounds', right?

Barrage weapons hit the level they land on - not the one above, not the one below. bomb falls down, bomb explodes. bomb doesn't phase through the floor and hit people it can't see.

exact phrasing from page 34 of the rulebook:

"...and when determining wound allocation, ALWAYS assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, INSTEAD of from the firing model".

the emphasis was put in by me, of course.

so, would you argue, sir, that, in the exact same way, a model on top of a skyshield landing pad can shoot a model underneath it? I'd say no, as he cannot see it. to emphasise this, We'll turn to page 16, under the heading "Out of Sight":

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then wounds CANNOT be allocated to it..."

now that's still slightly ambiguous, as it doesn't mention the term "line of sight", just "can see". so if we roll back to page 8...

"Line of sight determines what a model can see..."

ah, here we go. so a unit with LOS can therefore "see" its target. instead of using the units LOS, we assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast, so we measure LOS from there instead. we cannot draw LOS from the centre of the blast to the models underneath, therefore it cannot "see" the models underneath, therefore wounds cannot be allocated to them.


now, if I were to get very cruel, and take umbridge at this blatant attempt to squeeze through a loophole in the rules, I'd go a step further:

"For one model to have LOS to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the targets body"

blasts don't have eyes - your barrage hits nothing.

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In the context of the FaQ about Line of Sight, The attacking unit = The blast's LoS as measured from the hole as the hole is where the shot comes from with barrage.

I think you are misreading the FAQ unless you are arguing that the hole is a model.

"...even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

In a barrage the shot comes from where?

The center of the hole?

Where do shots normally come from, models, the rule equates the two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 some bloke wrote:
Barrage weapons hit the level of the ruin they land on - not the one above, not the one below. bomb falls down, bomb explodes. bomb doesn't phase through the floor and hit people it can't see.

Fixed that for you with the red text.

Also, please stop trying to use real world examples. They have no bearing on the 40K ruleset.

Real World Common sense/Real World Logic/how it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.

Some Bloke,
It all comes down to the terrain type on the pieces profile, and nothing more.

This is because there is no criteria to measure the terrain against, there is no list informing us how to determine of X is a Ruin or some sort of Building for example. Instead of a criteria used to determine these elements we are presented within the profile, using a field which outright tells us what Rules the piece follows. The piece could have every floor collapsing in on itself, all windows shattered out and even a whole wall completely gone from past damage but if the profile says it is a building... then we use the Building rule-set for it and not the Ruins. Same for your shining ruin example, it can look like a freshly fabricated Building but if we are told it is Ruins by the profile then it is Ruins.

That is part of the problem with 'Terrain Type: Unique' pieces that have multiple floors, like the sky-shield, as they need to state that we treat the individual floors in the same way as different floors in a Ruin before we are legally allowed to do so.

You are extrapolating examples that are not in the FAQ. Can you please give me the rules that support your argument.

Is the blast an attacking unit?
Is the hole a unit?
If either of these are not true, your example dose not work.

If you have models on top of a bastion and models on the ground near the base of the bastion, the blast hits the model on the top, the bastion itself, and the models on the ground as long as the blast is over them, even if it 10" up.

So some are arguing that if there is a piece of terrain over the heads of the models on the ground, blocking their view from the top of the bastion, they are not hit. This is wrong. There is no such thing as vertical cover from a blast or barrage. It's like peregrine says "an infinite cylinder".

 Nilok wrote:
You are extrapolating examples that are not in the FAQ. Can you please give me the rules that support your argument.

Is the blast an attacking unit?
Is the hole a unit?
If either of these are not true, your example dose not work.

The hole is equated to the firing unit because that is where we are told the shot comes from.

This is exactly why anytime you play with or against someone with the Skyshield, you should sit down and hash out all the rules about it. It is woefully addressed.

RAW there is nothing stopping the attacker from targeting the unit under the SS and hitting with Barrage. However, you will have to remove the SS in order to place the marker over the target unit.

HIWPI. Barrage only hits the top as ruins are the closest comparable terrain feature with levels to them.

So far emphasis has been placed on LoS, the main reason I posed this question is as follows, A tank sits on a Skyshield, a unit of men underneath, in the distance is an enemy tank, which has LoS to both units from afar (say on a hill), it fires and the blast covers both models, does it hit both... Both are under the template and within the models LoS, weapon range etc etc... The fact is it would be impossible to try and work out how many models are hit, because when you remove the Skyshield you would need to replace the marker to determine who it hits on the lower level, I just think this has major issues due to bad rules editing (should be title multi level structures, not under 'Ruins' and also a lazy/faulty building type and description)... 'Unique' is GW's way of saying sort it out amongst yourselves...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
You are extrapolating examples that are not in the FAQ. Can you please give me the rules that support your argument.

Is the blast an attacking unit?
Is the hole a unit?
If either of these are not true, your example dose not work.

The hole is equated to the firing unit because that is where we are told the shot comes from.

So where is Night Fighting measured from?

 deviantduck wrote:
If you have models on top of a bastion and models on the ground near the base of the bastion, the blast hits the model on the top, the bastion itself, and the models on the ground as long as the blast is over them, even if it 10" up.

So some are arguing that if there is a piece of terrain over the heads of the models on the ground, blocking their view from the top of the bastion, they are not hit. This is wrong. There is no such thing as vertical cover from a blast or barrage. It's like peregrine says "an infinite cylinder".

And where is the center of a infinite cylinder? If you have a model on a bastion and one on the ground, which one is closest to the center? Clearly this infinite cylinder is demonstrably wrong, as a infinite cylinder has no center, you have no place to to determine where the shot is coming from.

if the hole has to be within the weapons maximum range, how do you explain the hole being an infinite distance away? Where is this infinite cylinder explained in the rules? As the hole extends a infinite distance away, it's clearly beyond the tables bottom edge and thus misses.

why are you ignoring "take a good look at it from above" ie only the models you can see under the template are hit.

 some bloke wrote:
who here would argue that if you made a piece of scenery that was similar to a ruin, but clearly in a decent state of repair so not a ruin, you'd ignore the rules?

If you and your opponent agree to treat that terrain piece as a ruin, then it is a ruin.

The thing is, the Fortifications in the rulebook have predefined types. The reason people are saying the Skyshield isn't treated as a ruin is that it isn't a ruin.

blasts don't have eyes - your barrage hits nothing.

As has been pointed out multiple times so far, LOS is not required for casualty removal from Blasts.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
If you have models on top of a bastion and models on the ground near the base of the bastion, the blast hits the model on the top, the bastion itself, and the models on the ground as long as the blast is over them, even if it 10" up.

So some are arguing that if there is a piece of terrain over the heads of the models on the ground, blocking their view from the top of the bastion, they are not hit. This is wrong. There is no such thing as vertical cover from a blast or barrage. It's like peregrine says "an infinite cylinder".

And where is the center of a infinite cylinder? If you have a model on a bastion and one on the ground, which one is closest to the center? Clearly this infinite cylinder is demonstrably wrong, as a infinite cylinder has no center, you have no place to to determine where the shot is coming from.

if the hole has to be within the weapons maximum range, how do you explain the hole being an infinite distance away? Where is this infinite cylinder explained in the rules? As the hole extends a infinite distance away, it's clearly beyond the tables bottom edge and thus misses.

why are you ignoring "take a good look at it from above" ie only the models you can see under the template are hit.

there is no measurement from the blast marker to the firing unit. range is firing unit to target unit. the blast isn't involved, since we all know blasts can of course scatter out of max range and still wound.
however, that wasn't my point. the point is there is no 3d height when looking under the blast marker. whether the template is on top of the models head or 2 feet above the table, everything under it is hit, even if it is on different levels (with the exception of multilevel ruins.)

 deviantduck wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
If you have models on top of a bastion and models on the ground near the base of the bastion, the blast hits the model on the top, the bastion itself, and the models on the ground as long as the blast is over them, even if it 10" up.

So some are arguing that if there is a piece of terrain over the heads of the models on the ground, blocking their view from the top of the bastion, they are not hit. This is wrong. There is no such thing as vertical cover from a blast or barrage. It's like peregrine says "an infinite cylinder".

And where is the center of a infinite cylinder? If you have a model on a bastion and one on the ground, which one is closest to the center? Clearly this infinite cylinder is demonstrably wrong, as a infinite cylinder has no center, you have no place to to determine where the shot is coming from.

if the hole has to be within the weapons maximum range, how do you explain the hole being an infinite distance away? Where is this infinite cylinder explained in the rules? As the hole extends a infinite distance away, it's clearly beyond the tables bottom edge and thus misses.

why are you ignoring "take a good look at it from above" ie only the models you can see under the template are hit.

there is no measurement from the blast marker to the firing unit. range is firing unit to target unit. the blast isn't involved, since we all know blasts can of course scatter out of max range and still wound.
however, that wasn't my point. the point is there is no 3d height when looking under the blast marker. whether the template is on top of the models head or 2 feet above the table, everything under it is hit, even if it is on different levels (with the exception of multilevel ruins.)

Citation needed for that one. what pg is that rule on the explains all of this?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
You are extrapolating examples that are not in the FAQ. Can you please give me the rules that support your argument.

Is the blast an attacking unit?
Is the hole a unit?
If either of these are not true, your example dose not work.

The hole is equated to the firing unit because that is where we are told the shot comes from.

So where is Night Fighting measured from?

Since the rules equate the firing unit with the center of the hole, the center of the hole.

This is because you use the center of the blast marker to determine cover saves, Giving the unit stealth or shrouded is a part of determining what cover save the unit has.

That does not matter though "As has been pointed out multiple times so far, LOS is not required for casualty removal from Blasts." (insaniak)

 Nilok wrote:
You are extrapolating examples that are not in the FAQ. Can you please give me the rules that support your argument.

Is the blast an attacking unit?
Is the hole a unit?
If either of these are not true, your example dose not work.

Incorrect. As already stated, barrage sets out when it does not follow blast rules, and what rules you instead follow. You are told to use the centre of the blast instead of measuring from the attacking unit, meaning the two are equated for this purpose. The FAQ still applies.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Since the rules equate the firing unit with the center of the hole, the center of the hole.

This is because you use the center of the blast marker to determine cover saves, Giving the unit stealth or shrouded is a part of determining what cover save the unit has.

That does not matter though "As has been pointed out multiple times so far, LOS is not required for casualty removal from Blasts." (insaniak)

everything you just wrote here is wrong.

Show where the center of the blast marker is equated to the firing unit. it's not, you use the center instead of the model. The center is not a model, nor part of the unit, and you should know better.

Please read "determining cover saves" pg 18 and show where stealth or shrouded is mentioned at all?

LOS does matter as it has been pointed out multiple times so far.

For normal blasts they do indeed have a cylinder with no height taken into account.

For barrage its still a cylinder only height is taken into account.

It can only hit one level.

Ruins are specifically mentioned, but thats only because ruins are the only terrain defined in the BRB that have levels.

Its up to players to determine if Unusual terrain also has levels or not.

Pretty obviously skyshield has levels that block barrage.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Ruins are specifically mentioned, but thats only because ruins are the only terrain defined in the BRB that have levels.

You have that backwards, though. Yes, Ruins are specifically mentioned in the section dealing with levels... because the section dealing with levels is the rules section for Ruins.


No other terrain is affected by those rules.

Too late for me to read the whole thread, but for the Skyshield, I play WYSIWIG, and to me and everyone else with eyeballs, it looks like it has a level that is 3" above the ground. That level counts as open terrain, and provides a 4+ invul save vs shooting attacks, not a cover save unless the shot comes from outside the wall, in which case I'd say it's a 4+ cover save (of course Barrage comes from the hole in the blast).

If said blasts target units under the Skyshield, the firer has chosen the ground level and it would not hit those actually on the Pad.

WYSIWIG is in the BRB, and I don't see how one could say dudes which are clearly on 2 different levels get hit by the blast simultaneously.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
WYSIWIG is in the BRB, and I don't see how one could say dudes which are clearly on 2 different levels get hit by the blast simultaneously.

Even though the process for blasts just tells you to place the marker over the top and hit anything udner it?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Since the rules equate the firing unit with the center of the hole, the center of the hole.

This is because you use the center of the blast marker to determine cover saves, Giving the unit stealth or shrouded is a part of determining what cover save the unit has.

That does not matter though "As has been pointed out multiple times so far, LOS is not required for casualty removal from Blasts." (insaniak)

everything you just wrote here is wrong.

Show where the center of the blast marker is equated to the firing unit. it's not, you use the center instead of the model. The center is not a model, nor part of the unit, and you should know better.

Please read "determining cover saves" pg 18 and show where stealth or shrouded is mentioned at all?

LOS does matter as it has been pointed out multiple times so far.

Apart from the FAQ and rules on page 34 proving you wrong, of course.

 insaniak wrote:

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
WYSIWIG is in the BRB, and I don't see how one could say dudes which are clearly on 2 different levels get hit by the blast simultaneously.

Even though the process for blasts just tells you to place the marker over the top and hit anything udner it?

Ok, so hold the marker over the pad like instructed and look down.

How many models can you see under the landing pad.

The answer is none.... and thats how many you hit.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
The answer is none.... and thats how many you hit.

By your standards opaque blast markers would never be able to hit anything because you can't see any models through them. Fortunately this "how many models do you see" rule is one you've invented, not one that is in the actual rules of 40k. The real rule is that models that are underneath the template are hit, with no requirement at all that they be visible underneath the template.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
The answer is none.... and thats how many you hit.

By your standards opaque blast markers would never be able to hit anything because you can't see any models through them. Fortunately this "how many models do you see" rule is one you've invented, not one that is in the actual rules of 40k. The real rule is that models that are underneath the template are hit, with no requirement at all that they be visible underneath the template.

And you see how many bases are under the marker.......how? You might wanna read pg.6

Pick up and move terrain? Dont think so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also might want to read pg.33, because your previous post is 100% incorrect.

the only things from my post that people have picked up on are symantics - no-one has disproved the rules I went through to reach a conclusion.

 some bloke wrote:
the only things from my post that people have picked up on are symantics - no-one has disproved the rules I went through to reach a conclusion.

Your conclusion was based on a faulty premise, as I pointed out.

 some bloke wrote:
the only things from my post that people have picked up on are symantics - no-one has disproved the rules I went through to reach a conclusion.

You based your argument on a false premise, as was pointed out. Renders your argument null

nosferatu1001 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Since the rules equate the firing unit with the center of the hole, the center of the hole.

This is because you use the center of the blast marker to determine cover saves, Giving the unit stealth or shrouded is a part of determining what cover save the unit has.

That does not matter though "As has been pointed out multiple times so far, LOS is not required for casualty removal from Blasts." (insaniak)

everything you just wrote here is wrong.

Show where the center of the blast marker is equated to the firing unit. it's not, you use the center instead of the model. The center is not a model, nor part of the unit, and you should know better.

Please read "determining cover saves" pg 18 and show where stealth or shrouded is mentioned at all?

LOS does matter as it has been pointed out multiple times so far.

Apart from the FAQ and rules on page 34 proving you wrong, of course.

And what does pg 34 or the faq say about cover saves? where does it state the marker is a model?

You based your argument on a false premise, as was pointed out. Renders your argument null