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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually it does contain all the info needed to play. there are other rules that affect it as well.

You can not shoot the structure itself because it does not have an armor value, just like the Aegis Defense line. The Skyshield is just another piece of terrain that can not be destroyed.

The rules for units underneath the Skyshield are the same as any other unit on the table that would happen to be say under a bridge. So no issues there either.

What other rules effect it?????? Are you referring to rules not contained on the data sheet? Hmmmm....

I am referring to the basic rules for terrain that affects all terrain...

So the ones that aren't on the data sheet. That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.

sirlynchmob,
Take that up with the people whom claim Wobbly Model Syndrome covers it....

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually it does contain all the info needed to play. there are other rules that affect it as well.

You can not shoot the structure itself because it does not have an armor value, just like the Aegis Defense line. The Skyshield is just another piece of terrain that can not be destroyed.

The rules for units underneath the Skyshield are the same as any other unit on the table that would happen to be say under a bridge. So no issues there either.

What other rules effect it?????? Are you referring to rules not contained on the data sheet? Hmmmm....

I am referring to the basic rules for terrain that affects all terrain...

So the ones that aren't on the data sheet. That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.

In context the all means the relevant unique rules...

Do not ignore the context.

 Idolator wrote:
Is a vehicle (or any other model for that matter) allowed to be placed over top of another models base of a friendly while in open terrain?

There is nothing in the movement rules that would prevent a model from being geographically above another model.

How is coherency measured with models from a unit on the ground and others atop the sky shield? How is distance to the enemy models measured from units on the ground floor to the top? Can enemy units be directly beneath one another?

You measure normally, from base edge to base edge, because there is no rule in place that says to do otherwise.

Can units even be partially atop the sky shield?

If you allow WMS to apply to the difficult terrain movement that gets you up onto the pad, yes. Otherwise the coherency rules would effectively prevent it.

JinxDragon wrote:
sirlynchmob,
Take that up with the people whom claim Wobbly Model Syndrome covers it....

you brought it up, I figured I'd add on. There's to many opinions around here for me to try and keep track of who all is in what camps

What's odd is the one I know is on the pro levitation side, didn't think you should be able to levitate a unit arriving from reserves if there is no other place to deploy the unit.

It is a table top game after all, so in context, your models should stay on the table to play the game

I would assume the rules for TLOS come into play here. For all intents and purposes a blast template centered over a group of model above/under is hitting all of them since you don't have to choose a level since it is not a ruin. If I am not wrong, then a model above/below where the template was placed will receive a cover save since, with barrage weaponry, you do draw LOS from the blast template and they are, in fact, more than 25% obscured. Then you apply a cover save to the models above/below the landing pad depending on where you placed the marker and what terrain type is between the material. It is akin to placing a blast template over a unit that is divided by a wall. If particular models of the unit are behind the wall from the perspective of the center of the template then they get a save.

Say there are 8 Tac Marines in a Skyshield landing pad. If a Basilisk shot has it's template centered over the marines on top then they would only get a 4+ invuln save. The marines below would get a 3+ cover save thanks to it being a piece of purchased terrain. You still get 8 hits no matter what if you get the template all over them but you'd have to roll for them separately.

As far invul saves it would depend on where the model physically is. If it's on top of the Skyshield landing pad it gets the 4+. If it's not it doesn't.

 insaniak wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Can units even be partially atop the sky shield?

If you allow WMS to apply to the difficult terrain movement that gets you up onto the pad, yes. Otherwise the coherency rules would effectively prevent it.

This is why you also want to stay firmly in the "it's not a ruin" camp. If you allow that for WMS, or call it a ruins for coherency, then you open up to leaving one model on the top, having 20 ork boys trailing off to wherever and the whole unit getting a 4++ from just one model on the shield.

As it is RAW, you measure B2B which puts models 3"ish apart from 'on the shield' to the 'under the shield'

It prevents the train shenanigans, but makes assaults a tad more difficult as the whole unit needs to get onto the skyshield to assault a unit up there.

Sirlynchmob,
I brought it up as an example, in a list of problems that occur because of this dang piece of terrain, simply because it has been brought up and even supported by a solid number of posters here on the site! Personally I would just move the unit as close to the legs as possible, even underneath the thing if the Test gives enough distance to do so, where they will be out of line of sight if it is really that vital that I somehow get onto the thing. Much easier to just wait till the next Round to move onto the shield....

You know, if I didn't use the Tau doctrine of shoot them from far-far-far away and would never climb the Shield in the first place....

JinxDragon wrote:
Sirlynchmob,
I brought it up as an example, in a list of problems that occur because of this dang piece of terrain, simply because it has been brought up and even supported by a solid number of posters here on the site!
Personally I would just move the unit as close to the legs as possible, even underneath the thing if the Test gives enough distance to do so, where they will be out of line of sight and just wait till the next Round to move onto the shield... you know, if I didn't use the Tau doctrine of shoot them from far-far-far away.

why next to the legs? you can fit a model inside the legs if you really wanted to no WMS needed.

While it is not entirely broken it is another thing I would put forth as evidence that the Rules where written without the physical model in mind: The Difficult Terrain Roll itself!

I don't know the exact dimensions off the top of my head, but a quick review of what was posted online suggests the model is 3 inch tall. At that height the Difficult Terrain Test ensures that we need a minimal result of 4 inches, even if the Model in question is kissing the legs, just to get on the thing. That is to ensure a model clear the vertical height and adding a little bit of horizontal movement needed to place the model on top of it. Any model that is a few inches away from one of the legs has the near impossible task of successfully making the Roll.

Has anyone actually tried to move a unit from the ground onto one of these models to see how successful such a move is?
I can't say I have even tried, the shield isn't something I see all that often in the tiny group I play with, but the math alone makes it a daunting task.

JinxDragon wrote:
While it is not entirely broken it is another thing I would put forth as evidence that the Rules where written without the physical model in mind: The Difficult Terrain Roll itself! The elevation of the model ensures that you need a minimal result of 4, even if the Model in question is kissing the legs, just to ensure you clear the height and the little bit of horizontal movement needed to place the model on top of it. Any model that is a few inches away from one of the legs has the near impossible task of successfully making the Roll.

Has anyone actually tried to move a unit from the ground onto one of these models to see how successful such a move is?
I can't say I have even tried, the shield isn't something I see all that often in the tiny group I play with, but the math alone makes it a daunting task.

I brought it to a tourny, put 30 lootas on it, and it was my worst games ever.

the thing is you get 2 x d6 to get at least one 4+.

or when you assault, you get 3d6 drop the highest to get at least 4. Even easier to do with skimmers and jump infantry.

both of those equate to an almost guaranteed roll to get up there. the only difficult part is fitting up there.

Fair enough, but you still would of had to be underneath or kissing the legs in order to get the first few models up there even with a 4 inch result is my point, as any distance away from those would require a higher and higher Result. However at least the thickness of the base would be enough to get it within coherency, by a tiny fraction of an inch, if one Model was right positioned underneath one standing on the Shield. Any other unit still approaching the thing would be best forgetting about climbing it till they where huddled underneath in the first place....

JinxDragon wrote:
Fair enough, but you still would of had to be underneath or kissing the legs in order to get the first few models on there even with a 4 is my point. However at least the thickness of the base would be enough to get it within coherency, by a tiny fraction of an inch, if one Model was right positioned underneath another. Any other unit still approaching the thing would be best forgetting about climbing it till they where huddled underneath in the first place....

and being huddled under it, is an awesome place to be.

movement: 1 model moves out from under it til it can see a unit on the shield.
assault: that 1 model is the only one that can die from overwatch, then the rest of the unit just passes through the bottom to make b2b.

But aside from getting up there, it's only a 4+ save, you can shoot units off from it. which means, on average, for every 2 wounds a model dies. A bunch of twin linked eldar war walkers almost cleared my shield on the first turn of shooting. If you think getting a 4+ on 2d6 is a daunting task, it should be near impossible with 1d6.

sirlynchmob wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
While it is not entirely broken it is another thing I would put forth as evidence that the Rules where written without the physical model in mind: The Difficult Terrain Roll itself! The elevation of the model ensures that you need a minimal result of 4, even if the Model in question is kissing the legs, just to ensure you clear the height and the little bit of horizontal movement needed to place the model on top of it. Any model that is a few inches away from one of the legs has the near impossible task of successfully making the Roll.

Has anyone actually tried to move a unit from the ground onto one of these models to see how successful such a move is?
I can't say I have even tried, the shield isn't something I see all that often in the tiny group I play with, but the math alone makes it a daunting task.

I brought it to a tourny, put 30 lootas on it, and it was my worst games ever.

the thing is you get 2 x d6 to get at least one 4+.

or when you assault, you get 3d6 drop the highest to get at least 4. Even easier to do with skimmers and jump infantry.

both of those equate to an almost guaranteed roll to get up there. the only difficult part is fitting up there.

The rub, it's not a ruin and the top is a solid piece of open ground. There is no rules allowance to move through open ground only over it. It's not a wall or any other piece of terrain. You would have to agree with your opponent that you can move directly through the floor. If you don't have that agreement you would have to get every model in the unit in base contact for a 4 to get the whole unit up there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually it does contain all the info needed to play. there are other rules that affect it as well.

You can not shoot the structure itself because it does not have an armor value, just like the Aegis Defense line. The Skyshield is just another piece of terrain that can not be destroyed.

The rules for units underneath the Skyshield are the same as any other unit on the table that would happen to be say under a bridge. So no issues there either.

What other rules effect it?????? Are you referring to rules not contained on the data sheet? Hmmmm....

I am referring to the basic rules for terrain that affects all terrain...

So the ones that aren't on the data sheet. That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.

In context the all means the relevant unique rules...

Do not ignore the context.

I'm pretty sure that someone said something to this effect. It may take me a minute. Hang on,I'll get back to you. I mean it's riiiiight there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it! It was this guy!

 Idolator wrote:
It doesn't contain all the rules to play it. Just the relevant unique rules.

Glad to see that you two agree!

 Idolator wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
While it is not entirely broken it is another thing I would put forth as evidence that the Rules where written without the physical model in mind: The Difficult Terrain Roll itself! The elevation of the model ensures that you need a minimal result of 4, even if the Model in question is kissing the legs, just to ensure you clear the height and the little bit of horizontal movement needed to place the model on top of it. Any model that is a few inches away from one of the legs has the near impossible task of successfully making the Roll.

Has anyone actually tried to move a unit from the ground onto one of these models to see how successful such a move is?
I can't say I have even tried, the shield isn't something I see all that often in the tiny group I play with, but the math alone makes it a daunting task.

I brought it to a tourny, put 30 lootas on it, and it was my worst games ever.

the thing is you get 2 x d6 to get at least one 4+.

or when you assault, you get 3d6 drop the highest to get at least 4. Even easier to do with skimmers and jump infantry.

both of those equate to an almost guaranteed roll to get up there. the only difficult part is fitting up there.

The rub, it's not a ruin and the top is a solid piece of open ground. There is no rules allowance to move through open ground only over it. It's not a wall or any other piece of terrain. You would have to agree with your opponent that you can move directly through the floor. If you don't have that agreement you would have to get every model in the unit in base contact for a 4 to get the whole unit up there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
While it is not entirely broken it is another thing I would put forth as evidence that the Rules where written without the physical model in mind: The Difficult Terrain Roll itself! The elevation of the model ensures that you need a minimal result of 4, even if the Model in question is kissing the legs, just to ensure you clear the height and the little bit of horizontal movement needed to place the model on top of it. Any model that is a few inches away from one of the legs has the near impossible task of successfully making the Roll.

Has anyone actually tried to move a unit from the ground onto one of these models to see how successful such a move is?
I can't say I have even tried, the shield isn't something I see all that often in the tiny group I play with, but the math alone makes it a daunting task.

I brought it to a tourny, put 30 lootas on it, and it was my worst games ever.

the thing is you get 2 x d6 to get at least one 4+.

or when you assault, you get 3d6 drop the highest to get at least 4. Even easier to do with skimmers and jump infantry.

both of those equate to an almost guaranteed roll to get up there. the only difficult part is fitting up there.

The rub, it's not a ruin and the top is a solid piece of open ground. There is no rules allowance to move through open ground only over it. It's not a wall or any other piece of terrain. You would have to agree with your opponent that you can move directly through the floor. If you don't have that agreement you would have to get every model in the unit in base contact for a 4 to get the whole unit up there.

Nothing funny about it, if you do not ignore the context, then "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games." (114)

And that means that the datasheet contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

Where in the rules is the permission to allocate wounds from a blast template to models on different levels of terrain?

In the rules for Blasts, you hit everything under the blast marker. The only exception to this is for ruins.

When placing the blast template on top of the Skyshield, could you tell me how many models are seen beneath? I'm especially curious to hear of those below the Skyshield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
While it is not entirely broken it is another thing I would put forth as evidence that the Rules where written without the physical model in mind: The Difficult Terrain Roll itself! The elevation of the model ensures that you need a minimal result of 4, even if the Model in question is kissing the legs, just to ensure you clear the height and the little bit of horizontal movement needed to place the model on top of it. Any model that is a few inches away from one of the legs has the near impossible task of successfully making the Roll.

Has anyone actually tried to move a unit from the ground onto one of these models to see how successful such a move is?
I can't say I have even tried, the shield isn't something I see all that often in the tiny group I play with, but the math alone makes it a daunting task.

I brought it to a tourny, put 30 lootas on it, and it was my worst games ever.

the thing is you get 2 x d6 to get at least one 4+.

or when you assault, you get 3d6 drop the highest to get at least 4. Even easier to do with skimmers and jump infantry.

both of those equate to an almost guaranteed roll to get up there. the only difficult part is fitting up there.

Had an opponent position his models in such a way that it was impossible to get on top of the model to engage them in melee. I thought that was pretty stupid.

Of course I have this hate relationship with all of these special terrain pieces, including ADL.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Nothing funny about it, if you do not ignore the context, then "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games." (114)

And that means that the datasheet contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games.

This is the point where I step aside and allow you to continue to argue both sides of the point against yourself.

Where you ignore the greater context of the unique terrain rules, to focus on the last paragraph,to insist that data sheets include all the information to use a terrain feature, to claim that they don't include all relevant information, claiming that it has to be taken in context while ignoring the context of unique terrain features, to focus on the last paragraph,to insist that data sheets include all the information to use a terrain feature, to claim that they don't include all relevant information, claiming that it has to be taken in context while ignoring the context of unique terrain features

Put on repeat and press play.

Edit: I once had a similar conversation regarding the thermometers placed in a car. Where the cars owner disputed the weather report on the temperature, because it didn't match the temperature noted on his dash indicator. When I pointed out that those automobile thermometers weren't all that accurate, he vehemently disagreed because he stated that his was always in line with the weather report! Then continued to state that the weather report was wrong because his dashboard thermometer had a different reading.

If you keep ignoring context, I can't help you further.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you keep ignoring context, I can't help you further.

What context? Please elaborate.

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you keep ignoring context, I can't help you further.

What context? Please elaborate.

The context of page 114.

It states that " All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games."

This includes a Terrain Type.

The terrain type tells you that it is terrain and has all said rules associated with that type of terrain.

The Skyshield is "Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain."(115)

Therefore if you are on the top surface you are in open terrain, when moving onto or off of the landing pad those models count as moving through difficult terrain.

All of the information is on the datasheet...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you keep ignoring context, I can't help you further.

What context? Please elaborate.

The context of page 114.

It states that " All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games."

This includes a Terrain Type.

The terrain type tells you that it is terrain and has all said rules associated with that type of terrain.

The Skyshield is "Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain."(115)

Therefore if you are on the top surface you are in open terrain, when moving onto or off of the landing pad those models count as moving through difficult terrain.

All of the information is on the datasheet...

The terrain type is: unique, sending you back to the unique terrain rules.

And context also says that under the template means just that. Models immediately under the template.

if you are in bed, than in context you are under the sheets.
we don't grammatically say the bed is under the sheets, nor the boxes under the bed are under the sheets.

so in context with the blast rules, only the models directly under the template are hit. As those are the only models you can see when you look from above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and to be technical the word is actually "beneath"

extending or directly underneath, typically with close contact.

Does anyone actually play that you can hit models on top and below at the same time ? This thread makes me sad

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you keep ignoring context, I can't help you further.

What context? Please elaborate.

The context of page 114.

It states that " All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games."

This includes a Terrain Type.

The terrain type tells you that it is terrain and has all said rules associated with that type of terrain.

The Skyshield is "Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain."(115)

Therefore if you are on the top surface you are in open terrain, when moving onto or off of the landing pad those models count as moving through difficult terrain.

All of the information is on the datasheet...

The terrain type is: unique, sending you back to the unique terrain rules.

The terrain type is unique, then they explain what the unique aspects of the terrain are in the following sentences...

Hydrapup wrote:
Does anyone actually play that you can hit models on top and below at the same time ? This thread makes me sad

No, but that's because I don't play with a skyshield.

If someone were to put one on the table, though, I woul dbe pushing for house ruling it to use the Ruins rules... not just for the blasts issue, but because it removes several other issues with how the skyshield works as well.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you keep ignoring context, I can't help you further.

What context? Please elaborate.

The context of page 114.

It states that " All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your games."

This includes a Terrain Type.

The terrain type tells you that it is terrain and has all said rules associated with that type of terrain.

The Skyshield is "Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain."(115)

Therefore if you are on the top surface you are in open terrain, when moving onto or off of the landing pad those models count as moving through difficult terrain.

All of the information is on the datasheet...

The terrain type is: unique, sending you back to the unique terrain rules.

The terrain type is unique, then they explain what the unique aspects of the terrain are in the following sentences...

so the unique rules no longer apply?

 insaniak wrote:

Hydrapup wrote:
Does anyone actually play that you can hit models on top and below at the same time ? This thread makes me sad

No, but that's because I don't play with a skyshield.

If someone were to put one on the table, though, I woul dbe pushing for house ruling it to use the Ruins rules... not just for the blasts issue, but because it removes several other issues with how the skyshield works as well.

Yeah im with you with that... but I don't see the need to even raise the issue I mean if there were models underneath a bridge would people play that a barage blast goes through the bridge hitting models underneath and perhaps on top also regardless of the height of the bridge.... I would never willingly play against such a person and thankfully I never have.

Insaniak,
First I would ask if he can cut off the legs....