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I mean if there were models underneath a bridge would people play that a barage blast goes through the bridge hitting models underneath and perhaps on top also regardless of the height of the bridge....

Unless you agree to count the brisdge as having multiple levels as if it was a ruin, yes, that's how the rules work, so that's how it should be played.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Found a rules argument yet?

Yep you just choose to ignore it.

Perhaps you can give me a rules quote as to how an instruction to determine the number of hits by looking to see what is under it by looking down from above means you don't have to actually see what is under it, despite that being a very deliberately worded instruction?

No, I didnt. You are again making things up. Seems to be a trend

There is no "BY" there - there is an instruction to take a good look from above - not limiting HOW you see the models at all, even mirrors are allowed (general permission to look at them...) - and then told to count models benath the marker. The first part doees not require that this is the only way you determine the models - the actual rule just asks you to count the models beneath the marker.

So again, there is no requirement that these can be seen from drectly above, as you have already been told - opaque blast markers, under your made up houserule, would not function yet the BRB has opaque marker templates for you to use. I know who I trust more here...

No that is complete rubbish the rule quite clearly requires you to look from above, carefully, and determine the number of hits on the unit/s from that.

No permission is given to generate things from things that cannot be seen under the template when viewed from above.

Blast markers are transparent, if you wish to make you own I guess you need to house rule something but this isn't the forum for that.

Hydrapup wrote:

Good luck pulling that crap round our way. Sometimes people need to use common sense why would a ruin stop a blast but an intact structure wouldn't.... and don't say its the rules I will slap you

Pull what crap? The kind where I specifically suggested a house rule to avoid the particular piece of rules silliness you were complaining about?

 insaniak wrote:

Hydrapup wrote:

Good luck pulling that crap round our way. Sometimes people need to use common sense why would a ruin stop a blast but an intact structure wouldn't.... and don't say its the rules I will slap you

Pull what crap? The kind where I specifically suggested a house rule to avoid the particular piece of rules silliness you were complaining about?

Sorry I wasn't directing that at you just the rule in general I was also joking somewhat

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No that is complete rubbish the rule quite clearly requires you to look from above, carefully, and determine the number of hits on the unit/s from that.

There is no "from that" in the rules. You are told to look from above, and models are hit by being beneath the marker. Your rule is made up gak that doesn't exist in the actual rules. Mark your posts as such

No permission is given to generate things from things that cannot be seen under the template when viewed from above.

Except for the actual rules, which just require the models to be beneath the template. So,actual rules versus your made up argument then.

Blast markers are transparent, if you wish to make you own I guess you need to house rule something but this isn't the forum for that.

Page 417 disagrees with you. As I stated already, the rule book has rules for templates that are not transparent

Please, mark your posts as house rule / hywpi, as you have been proven wrong at every turn. Your argument is, factually, wrong.

No amount of that silly carry on will change the clearly printed fact that you look down from above and count the number of models under the template to determine the hits.
Page 417 gives no help to your position, being opaque they will require some house rules to work, unless you photocopied them onto clear plastic of course.
Honestly you must be pretty desperate if that's your trump card.

Being under it in general only works if you choose to ignore the requirement to look down from above, but leaving out the important bits or arbitrarily labelling them as "fluff" is you speciality after all.

Make your posts as Total Rubbish if you would as they have no basis.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, I didnt. You are again making things up. Seems to be a trend

There is no "BY" there - there is an instruction to take a good look from above - not limiting HOW you see the models at all, even mirrors are allowed (general permission to look at them...) - and then told to count models benath the marker. The first part doees not require that this is the only way you determine the models - the actual rule just asks you to count the models beneath the marker.

So again, there is no requirement that these can be seen from drectly above, as you have already been told - opaque blast markers, under your made up houserule, would not function yet the BRB has opaque marker templates for you to use. I know who I trust more here...

I agree with NOS here, you just hit the models beneath the marker

beneath: extending or directly underneath, typically with close contact.

ie only those directly underneath and with close contact to the marker, not the sky shield.

Sigh. More insults? I guess your argument is truly done then.

Page 417 states they are templates for use in 40k. Why the Brb is now a house rule is not quite clear to me, any way you can explain how the ruls are now house rules? Or will you retract that absurd claim?

You are told to look down, and then count the models beneath the template. "Beneath e template" do not require direct line of sight to work out, and as there is No such requirement to have LOS - your made up rules are not rules to the real world, after all - you are just told to count the models beneath the marker. I can do so without looking down through the marker.

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Take a good look from above =/= use a device to determine.

It does when there is a Skyshield blocking your view.

Still having problems with that whole physical possibility part, I see.

Heck, still having problems with the Rules as Written part too! As you can't state that mirrors or camera use is written into the rules.

How is this for physical [im]possibility.

The template and markers on Page 417 make it impossible to have any models under the marker seen. How would you count the models below the marker when using these? You can not just look though them it is a physical impossibility with these markers.

As Nos said: beneath the blast marker is the rule. however you determine that is valid.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take a "good look" does not require them to be seen - the actual rule is "beneath the blast marker" - however you determine that is valid.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Take a good look from above =/= use a device to determine.

It does when there is a Skyshield blocking your view.

Still having problems with that whole physical possibility part, I see.

Heck, still having problems with the Rules as Written part too! As you can't state that mirrors or camera use is written into the rules.

How is this for physical [im]possibility.

The template and markers on Page 417 make it impossible to have any models under the marker seen. How would you count the models below the marker when using these? You can not just look though them it is a physical impossibility with these markers.

As Nos said: beneath the blast marker is the rule. however you determine that is valid.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take a "good look" does not require them to be seen - the actual rule is "beneath the blast marker" - however you determine that is valid.

how about you read pg 6? I think you missed that page as well.

ie, You look underneath or through. so the models psychically beneath the template are hit.

So you can place a blast under the shield, then look beneath the marker to see how many models are hit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Take a good look from above =/= use a device to determine.

It does when there is a Skyshield blocking your view.

Still having problems with that whole physical possibility part, I see.

Heck, still having problems with the Rules as Written part too! As you can't state that mirrors or camera use is written into the rules.

How is this for physical [im]possibility.

The template and markers on Page 417 make it impossible to have any models under the marker seen. How would you count the models below the marker when using these? You can not just look though them it is a physical impossibility with these markers.

As Nos said: beneath the blast marker is the rule. however you determine that is valid.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take a "good look" does not require them to be seen - the actual rule is "beneath the blast marker" - however you determine that is valid.

Now you boys are reaching. It's that darned physical possibility thing getting in your way again. See if you place an opaque object over top another object that you can normally see, and it becomes blocked from sight from above by the opaque object itself, it is covered by said opaque object. This is simply the way that the English language works with positioning things over top one another. Now, there have been studies that indicate that infants, those that suffer from brain injuries and malformations as well as some animals are unable to determine that an object still exists when when blocked from sight, but unless a person falls into one of those categories there is no reason for them to believe otherwise.

That handicap is not what we are talking about here however. Because the initial objects(models under the landing pad) positioning , relative to the positioning to the blast template, cannot be determined with any accuracy without using methods disallowed by the rules. Much in the same way that a marksman cannot determine the relative position of a target behind a solid wall.

It is not possible to follow the rules as written and determine the models under the landing pad are even under the template at all. You aren't allowed to guess, you're not allowed to look from the side, you're not allowed to use tools other than those mentioned heck you're not even allowed to take a good look from above and a little to the side (this would change who was hit) and you're not allowed to reposition the blast template.

You are told to work out what models are beneath the marker. You are not given any restrictions on how you achieve this, just blanket permission. Looking down from above is one way, certainly, but not the only one.

You cannot read a blanket permissive rule such as that as being restrictive, without making rules up anyway

The rule says "beneath the template". Even if there's a solid object between the marker and the models, they are still beneath it. This goes along with the normal understanding of "beneath".

The lack of LOS has been adressed as well on the, iirc, last page as it's not necessary.

Exactly Idolator, you just look from above, which can not be done if the marker is under the Skyshield, as it is not physically possible to see anything under the marker. You can determine how many models are under it in other ways though.

sirlynchmob wrote:
how about you read pg 6? I think you missed that page as well.

ie, You look underneath or through. so the models psychically beneath the template are hit.

So you can place a blast under the shield, then look beneath the marker to see how many models are hit.

Did not miss it, you can do the same for all models under the blast marker even if it is above the skyshield.

Remember that page 33 says "the unit suffers one hit for each model with its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker (see diagram)."

If a model on the Skyshield has its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker then the unit suffers one hit. If a different model is directly below the model on the Skyshield then that unit suffers a hit as well, as that models base is fully or partially beneath the blast marker since it is directly below the model on top of the Skyshield.

Thanks for the debate, I am glad we worked that out.

sirlynchmob:

If using your definition, what would you do if you had to place the template right at the middle of a bigger board where it's impossible to look exactly from above the template unless you were a giraffe? It wouldn't be possible to look down on it perfectly straight, so what would you do?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly Idolator, you just look from above, which can not be done if the marker is under the Skyshield, as it is not physically possible to see anything under the marker. You can determine how many models are under it in other ways though.

sirlynchmob wrote:
how about you read pg 6? I think you missed that page as well.

ie, You look underneath or through. so the models psychically beneath the template are hit.

So you can place a blast under the shield, then look beneath the marker to see how many models are hit.

Did not miss it, you can do the same for all models under the blast marker even if it is above the skyshield.

Remember that page 33 says "the unit suffers one hit for each model with its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker (see diagram)."

If a model on the Skyshield has its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker then the unit suffers one hit. If a different model is directly below the model on the Skyshield then that unit suffers a hit as well, as that models base is fully or partially beneath the blast marker since it is directly below the model on top of the Skyshield.

Thanks for the debate, I am glad we worked that out.

And you should see why you are now demonstrably wrong on everything you've said so far about blast weapons.

As we can see from the usage of the word beneath, extending or directly underneath, typically with close contact.

As you have no permission to create this mythical infinite cylinder, nor any rule what so ever to hint at it, the only models hit are those directly beneath and typically in close contact with the marker.

Just like if you have a box under your bed, you wouldn't say I have a box beneath the sheets.
just like a model under the skyshield is under the skyshield, not beneath the marker.

and for one using context as an argument you should see this to be true and admit to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are told to work out what models are beneath the marker. You are not given any restrictions on how you achieve this, just blanket permission. Looking down from above is one way, certainly, but not the only one.

You cannot read a blanket permissive rule such as that as being restrictive, without making rules up anyway

So, what you're saying is unless it's explicitly restricted then it is permitted?

I'm sure that I can find a quote from a fellow, that you may respect, that disagrees with this statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly Idolator, you just look from above, which can not be done if the marker is under the Skyshield, as it is not physically possible to see anything under the marker. You can determine how many models are under it in other ways though.

It's almost as if they didn't write all the specific rules for playing with the sky shield landing pad?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Who would have thunk that?

Yeah, that was me and the writers. I guess you have to reference the rules for unique terrain as instructed in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
sirlynchmob:

If using your definition, what would you do if you had to place the template right at the middle of a bigger board where it's impossible to look exactly from above the template unless you were a giraffe? It wouldn't be possible to look down on it perfectly straight, so what would you do?

Larger than 4x6? On a table that prevents use of the written rules? You, my friend are already playing by house rules.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly Idolator, you just look from above, which can not be done if the marker is under the Skyshield, as it is not physically possible to see anything under the marker. You can determine how many models are under it in other ways though.

sirlynchmob wrote:
how about you read pg 6? I think you missed that page as well.

ie, You look underneath or through. so the models psychically beneath the template are hit.

So you can place a blast under the shield, then look beneath the marker to see how many models are hit.

Did not miss it, you can do the same for all models under the blast marker even if it is above the skyshield.

Remember that page 33 says "the unit suffers one hit for each model with its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker (see diagram)."

If a model on the Skyshield has its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker then the unit suffers one hit. If a different model is directly below the model on the Skyshield then that unit suffers a hit as well, as that models base is fully or partially beneath the blast marker since it is directly below the model on top of the Skyshield.

Thanks for the debate, I am glad we worked that out.

And you should see why you are now demonstrably wrong on everything you've said so far about blast weapons.

As we can see from the usage of the word beneath, extending or directly underneath, typically with close contact.

As you have no permission to create this mythical infinite cylinder, nor any rule what so ever to hint at it, the only models hit are those directly beneath and typically in close contact with the marker.

Just like if you have a box under your bed, you wouldn't say I have a box beneath the sheets.
just like a model under the skyshield is under the skyshield, not beneath the marker.

and for one using context as an argument you should see this to be true and admit to it.

The skyshield is beneath the marker, anything under the skyshiled where the marker is would be extending or directly underneath the marker...

It is your rebuttal that is demonstrably wrong on everything you've said so far about blast weapons.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly Idolator, you just look from above, which can not be done if the marker is under the Skyshield, as it is not physically possible to see anything under the marker. You can determine how many models are under it in other ways though.

sirlynchmob wrote:
how about you read pg 6? I think you missed that page as well.

ie, You look underneath or through. so the models psychically beneath the template are hit.

So you can place a blast under the shield, then look beneath the marker to see how many models are hit.

Did not miss it, you can do the same for all models under the blast marker even if it is above the skyshield.

Remember that page 33 says "the unit suffers one hit for each model with its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker (see diagram)."

If a model on the Skyshield has its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker then the unit suffers one hit. If a different model is directly below the model on the Skyshield then that unit suffers a hit as well, as that models base is fully or partially beneath the blast marker since it is directly below the model on top of the Skyshield.

Thanks for the debate, I am glad we worked that out.

And you should see why you are now demonstrably wrong on everything you've said so far about blast weapons.

As we can see from the usage of the word beneath, extending or directly underneath, typically with close contact.

As you have no permission to create this mythical infinite cylinder, nor any rule what so ever to hint at it, the only models hit are those directly beneath and typically in close contact with the marker.

Just like if you have a box under your bed, you wouldn't say I have a box beneath the sheets.
just like a model under the skyshield is under the skyshield, not beneath the marker.

and for one using context as an argument you should see this to be true and admit to it.

The skyshield is beneath the marker, anything under the skyshiled where the marker is would be extending or directly underneath the marker...

It is your rebuttal that is demonstrably wrong on everything you've said so far about blast weapons.

so models under a skyshield are underneath a marker on top of it?

situated directly below (something else).

so under the marker you'd have models, than the shield, than more models. That hardly qualifies as beneath, nor underneath.

so go ahead and keep proving me right. As the very words you are using are showing yourself to be wrong.

Beneath means at a lower level or layer than. "beneath this floor there's a cellar"

So yes, beneath the marker is a model, then a Skyshield, then another model.

It does qualify for Beneath, despite your claims otherwise. The English Language proves your statements incorrect.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Beneath means at a lower level or layer than. "beneath this floor there's a cellar"

So yes, beneath the marker is a model, then a Skyshield, then another model.

It does qualify for Beneath, despite your claims otherwise. The English Language proves your statements incorrect.

Ah, there's the rub. If we are using just the word beneath. All models on the table that exist on a plane lower than where the blast template is held are beneath the template. How do you explain that?

You do insist that the rules don't require that the models be directly beneath.

Edit: Word meanings and physicality raise their monstrous heads once more! Run for your lives!

 Idolator wrote:

Larger than 4x6? On a table that prevents use of the written rules? You, my friend are already playing by house rules.

Apocalypse games? What about people who are shorter than average? What about kids?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Beneath means at a lower level or layer than. "beneath this floor there's a cellar"

So yes, beneath the marker is a model, then a Skyshield, then another model.

It does qualify for Beneath, despite your claims otherwise. The English Language proves your statements incorrect.

and isn't a shame the rules in no way supports that conclusion. From the picture and the words used, you only hit the models directly under the marker. Unless you can provide a rules quote somewhere about this infinite column you've imagined? Plus if it was some sort of infinite column it would always miss, as the hole would be beyond the tables edge. Unless you can show how long this imagined column is, than a infinite one would extend out the other side of the earth and you'd always miss by some 20,000 kms. so please show some rules that describe or refer to this column or mark your arguments HYWPI.

It does not in any way qualify as beneath, nor underneath

are models under the skyshield in close contact with the blast marker? no.
directly beneath? no

RAW and in context, models that are not directly and in close contact with the blast marker are not hit with the blast.
RAW the only models hit are those that cover any part of it's base.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Larger than 4x6? On a table that prevents use of the written rules? You, my friend are already playing by house rules.

Apocalypse games? What about people who are shorter than average? What about kids?

Than who placed the marker in that spot to begin with if no one can reach it?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

Larger than 4x6? On a table that prevents use of the written rules? You, my friend are already playing by house rules.

Apocalypse games? What about people who are shorter than average? What about kids?

Yes, all of those instances are a great list of times when house rules would be instituted to play.

Or not. You can play on the floor you know.

sirlynchmob wrote:
From the picture and the words used, you only hit the models directly under the marker.

That is not what the rule says ans as such your entire post is false based on this false premise.

The rule does not say directly under.

Well, that took a turn for the silly.

I think that's quite long enough to have established the meaning of 'beneath'... Moving on.