Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Thinking of the faster release schedule I took a look at the amount of stuff released out of curiousity (I was mostly interested in the number of codexes released) in comparison to 5th:
ClockworkZion wrote: Just for fun I wanted to look at a comparison of how much stuff was released for 6th versus 5th:
So just on a "how much stuff released" perspective you could argue that 6th isn't leaving too soon. And it's interesting that in 2 years we got the same number of codexes in 6th that we got in 4-5 years with 5th. I wonder if GW is basing the launch of a new edition on the amount of stuff they've released and not the amount of time between the editions.
On a timeline though 2 years still really feels short regardless of how much stuff came out, but I don't think this edition has been short changed on content at least.
There is no need to boycott, market forces will decide that it you continue sell a product at too high a relative price then people will stop buying it. In fact, that has continued to be the case over recent years. To the OP, take a look at some of the subforums on Dakka - there are lots of high quality wargames out there, many of which are more deserving of your time, effort and money.
Personally, taking a pragmatic (and perhaps selfish) view, I hope GW continues exactly as they are. Retreating from the internet, cutting down places to play and support, rising prices for armies and barrier to entry - it's all helping other, smaller companies to flourish and grow as they have never done before. I can't remember a time when there were so many high quality rules and miniature producers on the scene, and the internet has been just such a wonderful tool for helping them connect.
Ultimately, I think it's good for the industry (of sci-fi/fantasy wargames at least) not to have one massive company, monopolising the industry and only providing one 'flavour' of the different types of wargaming.
Like I said though, this is a bit of a selfish position to take. I very rarely play GW games now, but a lot of people still do. For them, I wish GW would get its arse into gear and start giving some care to the way the rules for their games function, beyond just being used as an opportunity to fleece the target demographic as much as possible before they hit 14 and lose interest. That's the way it seems in the current situation at least.
easysauce wrote: look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40kYMDC...
easysauce wrote: Im very under impressed by WM/H ruleset to be frank... more so with the lack of variaty and the same feel to 90% of the factions armies all seeming like the look and play the same.
The same way that all 40k factions just shoot guns and roll dice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 18:42:31
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
I've boycotted GW models for a while now-I doubt they've noticed. Find a better game-there are a lot out there. Lots of games, and lots of better ones.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
So this is GW complaint thread number... what, nine? Ten? It's almost like we have some sort of problem.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
"I hate sixth!! Why won't GW fix the rules or release a new, more balanced set!?"
"New rule book? Feth you GW!! FETH YOU!!"
-_-'
"I hate 6th! Fix it GW!!!"
"Seventh edition? Feth that GW! I'm sticking with sixth to show you who is boss! Via la revolution!"
"I'm not buying anything from you no more! Apart from three riptides, new codex, starter set and rulebook... but that's it!"
No, we're not. We are a small minority of 40k players, that is undoubtedly true but that doesn't mean that we are not a a good barometer for the mood of the wargaming public. I would argue that a lot of GW's problems stem from thinking that people who complain about their products are 'negligible' and look what state they are in now.
Boycotting won't work because not enough people will take part and people don't stick to them anyway. Moving onto pastures new until GW gets it's act together and encouraging others to do the same is a far more effective tactic, not least because you will still be able to wargame. Just this week I converted someone who used to be a GW stalwart simply by recommending that they take a look at Infinity, apparently 40k is now dead to him.
Personally, taking a pragmatic (and perhaps selfish) view, I hope GW continues exactly as they are. Retreating from the internet, cutting down places to play and support, rising prices for armies and barrier to entry - it's all helping other, smaller companies to flourish and grow as they have never done before. I can't remember a time when there were so many high quality rules and miniature producers on the scene, and the internet has been just such a wonderful tool for helping them connect.
In the short to medium term I agree but I don't actually want GW to die, just reform itself to something that actually makes good games like it used to back in the days of yore. That's only likely to happen if its crippled first and that's at least as likely to end badly for GW and wargamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Price wrote: "I hate sixth!! Why won't GW fix the rules or release a new, more balanced set!?"
"New rule book? Feth you GW!! FETH YOU!!"
-_-'
Well a new rulebook that just titivates 6th and doesn't actually fix any of its flaws isn't going to please anybody. A thoroughly playtested and meticulously designed ruleset would save 40k while another half arsed rehash of 3rd ed will just continue the decline. Care to place a bet on what GW will be releasing this summer?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/29 19:07:13
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Is it really so hard to understand BOTH why GW would do something a certain way and why a lot of fans (but not all) would be unhappy with this?
Bottom line I think, is if the rules are tighter and make for a better game, with more balance, then most of us would be happy to pony up for a new box or book. Is that not fair to say? If however this is really just 6.5, which is in essence double-dipping by charging again for all the extra rules they already put out that people have paid for while adding minimal overall changes... then ya I can get why it could be seen as an extremely cynical move.
It's not silly to think that enough people having a boycott would have an impact. It's not silly to think getting a boycott of that scale together is a tall order indeed. It's messy because ultimately SOME people want GW to do this, they want the faster release pace and the rules back in WD, they want the big games and the ability to buy different lines of models and use them with their existing armies... and a lot of us want the game to get back to balance and competitive play, and to not completely flush the fluff down the toilet when it comes to the table.
It is ultimately the same as it will always be... if you like it, keep buying, if you don't, stop buying. Or keep buying and use an older rule-set and update with your own house-rules.
I dunno, if I was a really big 40k player who was at his wits end with things, but had effort and experience to put in, I would probably try to form some kind of comittee to take a more well regarded rule-set (4th or 5th) and see if we could create DIY updates focused 100% on balance and tournament play, and buy the models but forget the rules from them... but that's just me.
Commoragh's Fist wrote: A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...
Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.
If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?
I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.
I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.
.
Sticking FLGS and/or Distributors with dead stock with NO buyback program. (fyi, Walmart does not own one product in the entire store, if magazines do not sell, the magazine company takes them back, that goes for the entire contents of the store. Other retailers have similar buyback programs in place, it is common practice in retail)
It's so common that GW does have one. They're one of the only publishers in the industry that has one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 19:46:39
Commoragh's Fist wrote: A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...
Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.
If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?
I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.
I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.
If you truly saw, you'd understand that your analogy was a poor one. And, frankly, that goes for Commoragh's Fist, too.
2 years is too soon for a new Edition; however, for those that hate the edition, it's not soon enough. Can't please everyone.
easysauce wrote: the sky is not falling, this is actually the best we have had it... FFS we will have every codex in the current edition for the first time ever... its awesome... I for one am actually looking forward to GW releaseing an update, as its probably just going to be the equivelent of an extensive FAQ which is much needed, but it makes sense to leave it this long because they need to get data from how all the codexes have been playing against each other.
People on this site bash GW for no rules updates, then when GW overhauls the rules, they bash them anyways...
cant win.
Let's boil this "Good Thing" down.
1. Let's say this is 6.5 and like you said "the equivelent of an extensive FAQ". So extensive that they have to reissue the book to put it all in.
When in the history of GW has the need for an FAQ been do extensive that the best thing to do is to pull all product off the shelves and recharge people for the same rules, only "fixed" this time? All the old FAQ's, that one would hope would be implemented into this 6.5, are gone from the official website. If this is 6.5, it would appear that the only way to obtain this "extensive FAQ" is to shell out for what was previously free.
2. Let's say this is 7.0. If it is 7.0, it is either a GW increase in major rules rewrites off of the previous established schedule, or a subtle recognition that 6.0 had some major problems with it. And while, yes you can play any of the older versions, history has shown at least for GW, the community as a whole advances to the new system...regardless of any fact of it being improved from prevous versions.
I agree that a GW boycot isn't something to seriously consider, unless it is done on a personal consumer level. I seriously question any logic where this version is seen as a "good thing". It is either charging for items that were previously released freely to the community, or its a blatent money grab preying on the premise that the community will gobble it up regardless of cost or implication. I have seen nothing out of GW in the last 6months to a year that would leave me with a warm fuzzy that "7th" would be better than "6th". I see several indications that this is 6.5 and that charging for the "patch" is the new GW norm.
They seem to be really comfortable with pushing out product that the community sees as substandard only to push out a $5 fix in the immediate weeks afterwards.
Commoragh's Fist wrote: A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...
Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.
If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?
I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.
I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.
If you truly saw, you'd understand that your analogy was a poor one. And, frankly, that goes for Commoragh's Fist, too.
2 years is too soon for a new Edition; however, for those that hate the edition, it's not soon enough. Can't please everyone
.
If you re-read my post to Commoragh's Fist I was modifying his analogy not advocating that the Game Console = Game Edition is the best analogy out there. Also, how would a video game be equivalent to a game edition as both you and he suggested? Video games are software played on a console. So if we use this analogy wouldn't miniatures essentially act as the software that requires the use of a game edition to be used in said game? Changing out an edition often alters how models are used through changes in rules interactions for those models. Just like buying an Xbox 360 largely prevents you from playing Xbox games(I know there are exceptions to the backwards compatibility of games and consoles but this is an example). This is further compounded by changes in codices which are themselves connected to a particular edition. So, it does seem apt that a game console is closer to a game edition than to set of miniatures, no?
Which gets back to the original point that, no, the entertainment value of a 2-year edition is not much of a deal, according to Commoragh's Fist, if people were expecting to get 4-5 years of entertainment out of the same edition.
If you reread my last, non-snarky post, you'll see that I agree that 2 years is too soon, and that I don't agree with either you or Commoragh's Fist comparisons to vidja games.
And when i reread the first post in this thread, it's still funny!
Commoragh's Fist wrote: A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...
Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.
If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?
I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.
I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.
If you truly saw, you'd understand that your analogy was a poor one. And, frankly, that goes for Commoragh's Fist, too.
2 years is too soon for a new Edition; however, for those that hate the edition, it's not soon enough. Can't please everyone.
If you re-read my post to Commoragh's Fist I was modifying his analogy not advocating that the Game Console = Game Edition is the best analogy out there. Also, how would a video game be equivalent to a game edition as both you and he suggested? Video games are software played on a console. So if we use this analogy wouldn't miniatures essentially act as the software that requires the use of a game edition to be used in said game? Changing out an edition often alters how models are used through changes in rules interactions for those models. Just like buying an Xbox 360 largely prevents you from playing Xbox games(I know there are exceptions to the backwards compatibility of games and consoles but this is an example). This is further compounded by changes in codices which are themselves connected to a particular edition. So, it does seem apt that a game console is closer to a game edition than to set of miniatures, no?
Which gets back to the original point that, no, the entertainment value of a 2-year edition is not much of a deal, according to Commoragh's Fist, if people were expecting to get 4-5 years of entertainment out of the same edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote: Well, a GW boycott already became reality here. Players here head over to WM/H for a more balanced and cheaper game.
That's a shame, but I can't blame anyone for finding something they enjoy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/29 20:34:40
look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40kYMDC...
Sorry, what?
As of right now, 32114 threads in 40kYMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.
So, yeah....
considering that people play 40k at about a 100-1 ratio for wmh... yeah.. that makes total sense...
scale man.... scale...
besides if WMH is such a perfect ruleset, why do they need a FAQ at all then?
ALso, its a lot easier to have a more streamlined ruleset when you have 1/10 of the content, and most of your armies are 90% the same...
I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of warmachine vs warhammer as games, they're different games with different focuses, but this is one of the dumbest and most uniformed things I've read on the forums in a while.
Firstly, on the rules front the biggest difference is that there is no question that does not have an answer - every question will get officially answered by the devs if need be. Meanwhile, in 40k it seems like there's a multi-page debate about everything but the most basic things, multiple interpretations of so many rules and sloppy RAW that leads to arguing RAI and HIWPI. You can find a half dozen unanswerable questions in a minute on 40kYMDC, but there's not a single unanswerable question for WM/H. I used to be a rules forum guy back in 4th and 5th, arguing the nitty gritty details and trying to interpret undefined terms and so on, so switching to warmachine where rules questions are basically "here's the answer" took a bit of getting used to.
Secondly, Implying that "there's an FAQ therefore warmachine's rules are just as bad" is extrodinarily petty, and shows you're more interested in throwing crap around than debating.
And lastly, all the factions are the same? Have you even played the game? Christ, it's like saying tyranids and tau are the same because they both have monstrous creatures and infantry. Meanwhile, fully half of 40k is space Marines in various close-but-not-exactly-the-same configurations.
40k is not a terrible game, it has real merits in a lot of respects that can be argued for. However this sort of uninformed argument about another game does not help you at all.
Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.
Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else!
The Shadow wrote: I've said it a bazillion times: a boycott is never going to work, so get it out of your head now.
Why? Because we, on this forum, the people who are aware that GW's prices are insane, aware that GW are just a cash grab company, aware that 40k is a "bad" game, are a very, very small minority of the 40k community. We're negligible. GW make their money from kids, parents of kids, model enthusiasts and badly-informed adults who continue to buy models direct from GW and will continue to do so whether or not GW hike their prices or break the game.
I'll say it again. We're negligible. A boycott wouldn't work. Then take into account the fact that most of us here probably buy most of our wargaming stuff from eBay/Independent Retailers and our boycott would have even less of an effect.
The only thing that's going to make GW change their ways is another Wargaming/Minatures company opening high street stores UK/US-wide and directly competing with them. Anything else won't work.
This is incorrect.
The boycott is already there, or you wouldn't see such a drastic shift in the game that you have with this latest round of gak. Combine that with over 20 or so tables at local areas deflating to the couple that you see, or the 6+ games being played going to the 1, while everyone else moves on to other stuff.
Models are not being bought in as much or as many numbers as they once were, GW's own numbers already speak to that misinformation by the corporate mouth breathers.
local scenes are drying up, and other things are taking their places, regardless of the hyperbole.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
The game is dying, regardless of whether there's an organized effort to boycott it.
The best thing to do isn't to make it a negative and angry ordeal to leave GW. Instead, find other games you and your friends like, bring those new games to game night and demo them to your friends.
This is pretty much how Warmachine has taken over at our store, and now X-Wing and some other games are also filling the gap like miniature based board games, and more.
You make it a positive experience to play new games, and all the while GW themselves are making their own game a negative experience, people will naturally gravitate towards the positive experiences over time.
Warmachine and other newer games dominate the tables and sales at my store every night now. We did this by just playing it often, every game night, showing off the game, the models, and us just having fun.
Sure, there are some who still buy and play GW, but that's okay so long as they personally like the game. But every one still playing GW also has a Warmachine army, or two. There was some drama when some ultra-die hard, hard on GW types got angry that GW wasn't being played as much in store, but the reality was that none of their group was really playing GW games while there anyway. Now, even those people are trying new games like X-Wing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 04:23:54
Personally, I buy and play with models from several games- not just Games Workshop. I don't just buy books for the rules, but for the fluff as well. If GW makes a product that I want, and the price is acceptable to me, I buy it- just as with any other game. During Space Marine months I'm uninterested. During Tyranid/Dark Eldar months I'm a customer. I'll occasionally pick up models from other releases(Cauldron of Blood for example) as well.
If Games Workshop continues to print books and manufacture models I like, I will continue to buy them. There's no sheep or lemming mentality here, if they have something I like I buy it. If they don't, I don't buy. I'm not obligated or forced to do anything. I still have my own free will when it comes to my wallet. If the price is too high, I don't buy. Simple as that.
I haven't stopped with 40k, not at all, but I'm also starting to branch out. The two most interesting games for me look like Warmachine and Infinity and I'm having a hard time deciding between the two.
A boycott on GW? It's a personal preference. Revolution comes when the average person feels uncomfortable enough. For some that has happened already. For others they're just fine and will keep going how they are. I'm kind of in the middle. GW has some serious problems but not quite enough for me to leave. But I am looking at options.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
There isn't the will to boycott, most customers of GW seem to be newbies who spend fairly indiscriminately. Who buys from GW when there are so many discounters. The big success of GW is in convincing their customers that they are effectively the whole hobby and really are the best and that you can only use citadel/GW product together. There will be people buying the new toolkit with citadel logo because only GW clippers will do the job. People buying from GW aren't the veterans on the internet, they are the short term customers that GW aim at to sell a lot of stuff in a short period.
A boycott won't work because it'll never be organised. And to be honest, they're just models and paints. I find their continual price increases and rules re-releases ludicrous, but nothing to get angry about.
I don't like GW because of what I perceive as an unreasonable and aggressive attitude towards the IP the purport to own and their mishandling of independent game stores. Because these things affect the community outside the GW hobby.
The real threat to GW isn't a boycott but lack of ongoing customer interest. They are open about the fact that they don't advertise but rely on word of mouth. But what are people saying about GW? The fewer customers they have (as appears the implication of falling sales) the less advertising they get and less chance of the new people they thrive upon being introduced to the hobby. It's a confusing strategy, relying on word of mouth and then doing nothing for veteran players.
If you rely largely on word of mouth to spread your product, and are viewed negatively, it'll be bad commentry or people just won't recommend you. You will gradually lose customers to a point at which your gaming community becomes unsustainable and it will rapidly drop off a cliff. Gamers complain when they want to get into a system but won't because 'no one plays it in my area'. When that regularly happens to GW they'll be in real trouble, as their shops no longer offer places in which to play, so what's the point in them?
Maddermax wrote: Just try other games for a while. You'll soon find your cares for what GW does disappear. Find a new game, love it, show a friend and pass it along.
Pretty much this. I gave up GW a year ago and my hobby experiences are far better. Unless you're going to play pre-5th edition 40k it's a horrible, unpleasant experience thanks to GW.
As for boycotting, GW is digging its own grave, albeit very slowly. They'll collapse under their own stink, the cracks have been showing since about 2009 but 2013 had those cracks turn into full penetration. In a few more years, despite their tricks of codex bombardment/price hikes/more lawsuits/stores open 2 days a week/whatever, they'll be in a deeper hole.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 07:19:02
easysauce wrote: Im very under impressed by WM/H ruleset to be frank... more so with the lack of variaty and the same feel to 90% of the factions armies all seeming like the look and play the same.
Contrast to everyone just running Taudar in 40k at the moment? At least people are playing different factions at the top level.
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
(more)
(building)
(less)
