Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 18:04:51
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
HiveFleetPlastic wrote:There are some sizeable problems with Warmachine. I've never seen easysauce mention any of them, though.
For me there are two: the aesthetics and the scale of the game. I'm not really into "skirmish" sized games and I don't like the look of the models all that much.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 18:05:02
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 18:06:57
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Cosmic Joe
|
Just because it's "opinion" doesn't mean its granted an invulnerable aegis of protection. Your opinion is based off of incorrect facts and assumptions.
|
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 18:08:12
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Sslimey Sslyth
|
I thought they were the Gnomes of Zurich....
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 18:08:45
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Smokin' Skorcha Driver
|
easysauce wrote:that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining.
I'm just trying to figure out where you're getting "a lack of unit choices" from. I've got around 30 different Cryx unit choices in my collection and all of them get used regularly and are "competitive". I still have at least double that before I start to run out of major units to collect. Putting them together in different combinations results in a completely different playstyle (Dene + Bane Knights? Debuff incarnate. Terminus + Bane Knights? CHARGE) and my collection has more variety than all of the 40k armies I've ever collected put together.
Where on earth are you getting "a lack of unit choices" from? What units do you see duplicated time and time again?
No-one's calling you a troll because you're spouting an opinion. They're calling you a troll because you may as well be arguing that the sun is purple for all the sense you're making. You could have argued that you don't like the aesthetics. Fine, that's your opinion. You could have argued that you don't like the scale of the game. Fine, that's your opinion. You could argue that you don't like the attitude of "bring your best all the time, don't complain when you lose". Fine that's your opinion.
Claiming that there's a lack of variety in Warmachine is so far off the mark that the only explanantion is that you're trolling.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 18:22:39
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 18:09:35
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Maryland
|
Saldiven wrote: easysauce wrote:that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining. Let me preface this by saying I haven't played Warmachine since it first came out; I couldn't afford two game systems at the time, and just never really went back. But, saying "where I see lack of unit choices" is just misinformed. Each one of the Warmachine factions has as many or more unit choices than two or three entire WH40K codices. I just checked online, and for example, Cygnar has 48 separate unit choices, not counting mercenaries (and there are close to 50 mercenary options). My Dark Eldar book has 20-25, including all the special characters. My WHFB Dwarf book has the same 20-25, including special characters. Here's the list: http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cygnar I have to agree. Warmachine does have its problems, and I could never get into the game because of the rules - they just weren't for me - but from an objective standpoint unit choices for Warmachine and Hordes vastly outnumber either Fantasy or 40k. I mean, the Theme Lists alone are incredible.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 18:11:24
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 18:28:35
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Tough Tyrant Guard
|
ClockworkZion wrote: HiveFleetPlastic wrote:There are some sizeable problems with Warmachine. I've never seen easysauce mention any of them, though.
For me there are two: the aesthetics and the scale of the game. I'm not really into "skirmish" sized games and I don't like the look of the models all that much.
I found a faction whose looks I quite liked and then found that over time the rest of the aesthetic began to appeal to me more. The board gets pretty busy at the usual tournament game sizes, too, but yeah, in Warmachine "a lot" of infantry is like thirty models or something. Much smaller than 40k!
But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!
But despite all that it's a good game and worth considering for anyone wanting a reason to stop spending money on 40k.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 18:48:16
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
How is this thread still open?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 19:15:42
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: ClockworkZion wrote: HiveFleetPlastic wrote:There are some sizeable problems with Warmachine. I've never seen easysauce mention any of them, though.
For me there are two: the aesthetics and the scale of the game. I'm not really into "skirmish" sized games and I don't like the look of the models all that much.
I found a faction whose looks I quite liked and then found that over time the rest of the aesthetic began to appeal to me more. The board gets pretty busy at the usual tournament game sizes, too, but yeah, in Warmachine "a lot" of infantry is like thirty models or something. Much smaller than 40k!
But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!
But despite all that it's a good game and worth considering for anyone wanting a reason to stop spending money on 40k. 
I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 19:22:05
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
|
gorgon wrote:I can't believe no one's ever thought of boycotting before.
Only about 50-60 times a year since I got here...
Seriously, I have no love for GW, my advice to people that have just showed up is play something else.
My advice to people like me, who have been playing for years and have therefore already built up a sizable collection of non degradable, perfectly usable models and also fully invested into the background and the fluff, is to stop pissing and whinging, because you can get by on about 100 bucks a year even with their mercilessly frequent changes.
All of the shrill hate on here is unending and it tires even me, and I certainly dislike GW.
If you have just showed up, by all means pick something else to play, I would.
If you haven't, show a little restraint, purchase the bare-bones books you need off eBay, (a mini rulebook and a codex will set you back what? 75 bucks every few years?) and stop pissing and dripping because you will spend feth all anyway.
Isn't that a happy medium rather than all this endless bitching?
|
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 19:26:15
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Powerful Orc Big'Un
Somewhere in the steamy jungles of the south...
|
Saldiven wrote: easysauce wrote:that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining.
Let me preface this by saying I haven't played Warmachine since it first came out; I couldn't afford two game systems at the time, and just never really went back.
But, saying "where I see lack of unit choices" is just misinformed. Each one of the Warmachine factions has as many or more unit choices than two or three entire WH40K codices. I just checked online, and for example, Cygnar has 48 separate unit choices, not counting mercenaries (and there are close to 50 mercenary options). My Dark Eldar book has 20-25, including all the special characters. My WHFB Dwarf book has the same 20-25, including special characters.
Here's the list:
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cygnar
I was gonna make a post of my own to refute easysauce, but then I saw that you have already done it much better than I ever could. Darn.
~Tim?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 19:42:35
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
The Last Chancer Who Survived
|
If GW does start churning out BRB's every two years, I think I'll be sticking with an older book until I hear reports of working rules...
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 20:25:49
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
|
ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).
Incidentally I was talking to someone on monday about this. The game is to an extent in need of a Mk2 "remix" version (they did one in Mk1, incidentally much like what *might* be happening with 40k) as certain rules (namely Battle Engines, Colossals and Warcaster Units off the top of my head) are in need* (not need, as you don't really need these rules unless you're using said units, but I can't really think of a word!  ) of being consolidated into the main rulebook.
It's certainly not suffering from the bloat it was at the time of the last Mk1 expansion (Legends), but it is getting overtly complex in places. Personally, I like it, but then again I don't play it top level competitively so I don't have to make it my business to know what everything can do.
|
    
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 20:39:39
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
Grimtuff wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).
Incidentally I was talking to someone on monday about this. The game is to an extent in need of a Mk2 "remix" version (they did one in Mk1, incidentally much like what *might* be happening with 40k) as certain rules (namely Battle Engines, Colossals and Warcaster Units off the top of my head) are in need* (not need, as you don't really need these rules unless you're using said units, but I can't really think of a word!  ) of being consolidated into the main rulebook.
It's certainly not suffering from the bloat it was at the time of the last Mk1 expansion (Legends), but it is getting overtly complex in places. Personally, I like it, but then again I don't play it top level competitively so I don't have to make it my business to know what everything can do.
The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 20:48:37
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
|
mattyrm wrote:<snip> My advice to people like me, who have been playing for years and have therefore already built up a sizable collection of non degradable, perfectly usable models and also fully invested into the background and the fluff, is to stop pissing and whinging, because you can get by on about 100 bucks a year even with their mercilessly frequent changes.
<snip> If you haven't, show a little restraint, purchase the bare-bones books you need off eBay, (a mini rulebook and a codex will set you back what? 75 bucks every few years?) and stop pissing and dripping because you will spend feth all anyway.
Isn't that a happy medium rather than all this endless bitching?
Been in the hobby for years and agree with much said.
It is not the cost so much as you say, it is the endless modifying models, improving your magnet use, dusting off the old army that is now new... it almost seems like work!
My biggest complaint is the changes of rules and having the dreaded flashbacks of say a 3rd edition rule which the young guys just LOVE to hear.
At least my Black Templar have whirlwinds again... (dust off old metal one...).
|
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 21:00:03
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
|
ClockworkZion wrote:
The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.
Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example.  ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.
I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.
|
    
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/30 21:56:29
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
Grimtuff wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.
Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example.  ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.
I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.
I actually have an easier time with GW's rules, but that's likely because I don't need to remember the name, the effect AND and icon for it.
I do agree GW's rules need more streamlining. I'm glad they're finally keeping (most) of the special rules in one place now.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 00:22:20
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Sniping Hexa
Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States
|
ClockworkZion wrote: Grimtuff wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.
Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example.  ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.
I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.
I actually have an easier time with GW's rules, but that's likely because I don't need to remember the name, the effect AND and icon for it.
I do agree GW's rules need more streamlining. I'm glad they're finally keeping (most) of the special rules in one place now.
To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 00:40:03
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Brisbane, Australia
|
ClockworkZion wrote: Grimtuff wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.
Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example.  ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.
I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.
I actually have an easier time with GW's rules, but that's likely because I don't need to remember the name, the effect AND and icon for it.
I do agree GW's rules need more streamlining. I'm glad they're finally keeping (most) of the special rules in one place now.
The icons are actually far better for " USRs" I think, they're a wonderful little time saver and memory jogger. I mean, if a unit has pathfinder, it has a little boot icon, it's not harder than remembering a unit has Move Through
cover. Similarly, the advance deploy icon has a little arrow, is that harder than remembering a unit has scout/infiltrate on a page in a book? I mean, there are 30 or so symbols total, most are pretty rare but obvious from their icon, while there are 80ish USRs in 40k to remember.
That's all by-the-by though, not really on topic. Automatically Appended Next Post: Grimtuff wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).
Incidentally I was talking to someone on monday about this. The game is to an extent in need of a Mk2 "remix" version (they did one in Mk1, incidentally much like what *might* be happening with 40k) as certain rules (namely Battle Engines, Colossals and Warcaster Units off the top of my head) are in need* (not need, as you don't really need these rules unless you're using said units, but I can't really think of a word!  ) of being consolidated into the main rulebook.
It's certainly not suffering from the bloat it was at the time of the last Mk1 expansion (Legends), but it is getting overtly complex in places. Personally, I like it, but then again I don't play it top level competitively so I don't have to make it my business to know what everything can do.
A consolidated book might be good, but at least all rules in the game can be gotten with just the main rulebook and the War Room app, which has all the Colossal/Battle Engine/ect rules. $6 to get all the models and rules released over 3 books for your faction is pretty good.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 00:59:36
Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.
Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 01:06:11
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Posts with Authority
|
On topic, and, bizarrely enough, in defense of GW....
IF the latest editions of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K were intended for a longer run than previous editions
And
IF the sales of the most recent editions of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K were substantially lower than that of previous editions
Then
It would make sense to ditch the current edition of each game, even though neither has reached the end of its projected life cycle.
GW suffers from both a lack of playtesting and a tendency not to listen to those playtesters that they do have.
Ideally GW should have multiple playtests, including a double blind playtest - and without those tests what may have seemed like a decent and long lived system to the creators could turn out to be a dead fish in the market.
Honestly? I think that creating a new edition might be the best of a selection of bad choices.
Companies with much better track records than GW have made similar mistakes (I am looking at WotC's D&D 4th edition, specifically).
If the new editions are falling further behind in sales then it is likely best to abandon the sunk funds and try for a new chance.
I can only make an observation on a local scale - but the current edition of Warhammer was the best thing that could have happened for Kings of War in my area.
The Auld Grump - I have no observations for WH40K - I quit at the end of 3rd edition.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 01:06:23
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 01:11:15
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
Tanakosyke22 wrote:To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.
I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 01:40:36
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Brisbane, Australia
|
ClockworkZion wrote: Tanakosyke22 wrote:To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.
I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).
I dunno, I hated the huge amount of USRs they added with 8th in fantasy, made it far more complicated. It sounds like they did the same with 6th ed 40k too, as I read through posts about it I can't understand most of the stuff they talk about because all the basic rules have been replaced with flowery USR names, even though I knew the 5th ed stuff back to front.
I think the reason you find WM/H rules more complicated, especially if it's the few symbols that trip you up, is simply familiarity. I mean, if you told me that a 40k unit was Bulky, adimantium will, it will not die, Hammer of Wrath and had an Unwieldy Shred weapon, I'd look at you with a bemused look on my face, it sounds way too complicated. However, all that probably makes perfect sense once you've been playing for a few months and feel familiar with the terms. Same goes for Icons in WM/H, after a few games they're familiar, and you can tell a units USRs in a one second glance - it's really handy actually.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 01:47:40
Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.
Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 01:48:06
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
The unit takes up 2 transports slots a model, gets a +1 to they're "Deny the Witch" rolls, gets one attack at I10 that automatically hits on the turn they charge, and their weapon goes at I1 and rerolls wounds.
Yes, it makes perfect sense to me.
I think part of the problem for me is that I think more in words than in pictures.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 01:48:37
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 01:53:07
Subject: Re:Stop GW Now
|
 |
Incubus
|
Isn't there a fanmade ruleset for 40k somewhere in the internet? I think it is still current with new units.
|
Quote from chromedog
and 40k was like McDonalds - you could get it anywhere - it wouldn't necessarily satisfy, but it was probably better than nothing.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 01:58:05
Subject: Re:Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
Wouldn't surprise me if there was. It is a game that specifically encourages players to add to or adjust the rules as they see fit to improve the experience for everyone involved.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 01:59:33
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Brisbane, Australia
|
ClockworkZion wrote:The unit takes up 2 transports slots a model, gets a +1 to they're "Deny the Witch" rolls, gets one attack at I10 that automatically hits on the turn they charge, and their weapon goes at I1 and rerolls wounds.
Yes, it makes perfect sense to me.
I think part of the problem for me is that I think more in words than in pictures.
To be fair, there are are words in the Faction Books if you'd prefer, the cards are basically only rules references and damage trackers  If you purchased the books then, it'd be no worse than when playing 40k, to be fair.
That's not being pushy arguing you should take it up btw, just saying 40k and WM/H are very different games, and have different appeals.
Back on topic, I think GW would do better looking at PPs community engagement and support models than game design. Game design. PPs volunteer support, tournament support, rules support and community engagement of it's design staff are what makes it a popular company, more than it's rules set. As much as people complain about the rules, a consistent approach to FAQs and regularly answering questions would be a bigger boon than a better editor, and tournament support would stop the slow slide of people moving to playing the games with 3rd party models. Just a thought:
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/01 02:07:06
Looking for a club in Brisbane, Australia? Come and enjoy a game and a beer at Pubhammer, our friendly club in a pub at the Junction pub in Annerley (opposite Ace Comics), Sunday nights from 6:30. All brisbanites welcome, don't wait, check out our Club Page on Facebook group for details or to organize a game. We play all sorts of board and war games, so hit us up if you're interested.
Pubhammer is Moving! Starting from the 25th of May we'll be gaming at The Junction pub (AKA The Muddy Farmer), opposite Ace Comics & Games in Annerley! Still Sunday nights from 6:30 in the Function room Come along and play Warmachine, 40k, boardgames or anything else! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 02:21:39
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
HiveFleetPlastic wrote:But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!
So nothing like 40K, then... Automatically Appended Next Post: ClockworkZion wrote:The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.
It's not actually as bad as it seems at a first glance. If you start out small (the various battlegroup boxes are a handy way to get started) and ease into bigger games, it all falls into place as you play.
Picking up any new wargame is a steep learning curve. And most skirmish level games involve a lot of special rules. The key is always to start smaller until you have a grip on things and then look at expanding.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 02:23:28
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 02:24:17
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
Maddermax wrote:Back on topic, I think GW would do better looking at PPs community engagement and support models than game design. Game design. PPs volunteer support, tournament support, rules support and community engagement of it's design staff are what makes it a popular company, more than it's rules set. As much as people complain about the rules, a consistent approach to FAQs and regularly answering questions would be a bigger boon than a better editor, and tournament support would stop the slow slide of people moving to playing the games with 3rd party models. Just a thought:
Agreed. GW needs to come out of the closet, not go further in it. They've passed Christmas AND Narnia at this point and desperately need to stop burrowing in deeper.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 03:06:51
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Tough Tyrant Guard
|
insaniak wrote: HiveFleetPlastic wrote:But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!
So nothing like 40K, then... 
One of the biggest problems I had with 6th was figuring out what the heck the rules actually are because they're so badly written. That's rarely a problem with Warmachine, which made it a great 40k rebound game for me. And hey, even the internal army balance being off sometimes has nothing on 40k's balance issues.
insaniak wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote:The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.
It's not actually as bad as it seems at a first glance. If you start out small (the various battlegroup boxes are a handy way to get started) and ease into bigger games, it all falls into place as you play.
Picking up any new wargame is a steep learning curve. And most skirmish level games involve a lot of special rules. The key is always to start smaller until you have a grip on things and then look at expanding.
Experience definitely helps. When you start everything is weird, and then after a while you can see the commonalities between different units that make them easier to understand. So this caster's general type is to murder me by surprise from 16" away. This is a unit of heavy infantry, meaning I can expect not much defense and reasonable armour and hitting power, but they have this special thing about them. These are small-based high- def infantry with this caveat.
I'd quite enjoy a Mk 2.5, actually!  Something to consolidate the rules and clean up some of the problem areas and maybe address some areas people agree are a bit weak, like terrain that isn't a forest, hill, wall or lake. Or something to rewrite the game in its entirety, fixing all the issues ever!
With 40k, the idea of buying a new rulebook just makes me uneasily aware how little value I got out of the last $140 shelf decoration. But I don't need to boycott them, because I can just play other stuff instead, and if they ever fix the rules I'll be able to blow the dust off my 40k miniatures and give them another try. I urge everyone feeling miffed at GW's business practices or whatever else to do the same, because you'll probably be pleasantly surprised at the other cool and well-executed (and much more affordable) ideas floating around the miniatures space.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 03:24:20
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
|
If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/01 03:38:32
Subject: Stop GW Now
|
 |
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
|
troa wrote:If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.
A good rule for life I think!
|
|
 |
 |
|