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2014/05/21 16:13:35
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
nomotog wrote: It's because elves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought of as female traits.
Yeah, and dwarves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought as male traits. Female dwarves are pretty rare, much more so than male elves. But they can be pretty cool to play. Axe to the knee!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slarg232 wrote: Indeed, one of the running gags in Looking for Group (A online comic about a group of adventurers) is that no one can tell if the male elf ranger is a dude or lady when they first meet him
Well, he has been with his pet panther since the very first strip and only recently learned that it was a she, so he is not really in a position to complain .
Slarg232 wrote: and in Order of the Stick it's never stated if Vesuvious is a male or female (and is often the butt of jokes because of it).
He is clearly one of the most powerful character of the band nonetheless. And he is pretty cool for an elf.
Melissia wrote: Which is kind of silly really, most of the time the male elves in games just have realistic proportions instead of massive bulging muscles like everyone else, and that makes them "feminine" or some other crap.
Well, they usually also lack any kind of facial hair (unlike their usual rival the dwarves).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 16:18:12
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/21 17:25:17
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
nomotog wrote: It's because elves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought of as female traits.
Yeah, and dwarves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought as male traits. Female dwarves are pretty rare, much more so than male elves. But they can be pretty cool to play. Axe to the knee!
Both depictions make sense though. Dwarfs, who mainly live underground in mine shafts, have to do physically heavy work which is something that's mostly attributed to men due to their superior given physique for said jobs. Elves, however, are naturally related to arts, language and elegancy which is an area females tend to excel at.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 17:30:20
I'm not touching THAT level of nonsense with an eleven foot pole.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/05/21 20:08:46
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
nomotog wrote: I haven't played a female dwarf yet, or really any dwarf. Maybe I should though. I'll add it to the list.
I played a female Dwarf in one run of Dragon Age... her arms were freaky long.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/05/21 20:12:42
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 20:19:37
2014/05/21 20:22:51
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
As I said, I'm not touching that nonsense. We already had one thread devolve in to thirty pages of debate because of it, and that was just recently, never mind the long history of such discussions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/21 20:23:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/05/21 20:34:46
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Get those dirty facts and logic away from the comforting happy-go-lucky mindset!
Noone doubts that there is a significant difference between men and women, the problem for some might simply be that those differences are enforced / emphasized by games / works of fantasy. Whether that is a valid concern or not is another issue, it's just a possible reason for said judgements.
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Get those dirty facts and logic away from the comforting happy-go-lucky mindset!
Noone doubts that there is a significant difference between men and women, the problem for some might simply be that those differences are enforced / emphasized by games / works of fantasy. Whether that is a valid concern or not is another issue, it's just a possible reason for said judgements.
Physiological differences between the sexes are enforced by media portrayals of gender stereotypes? So if we make sure that all media references to sexual dimorphism are banned, woman will spontaneously grow stronger?
Hell if its that easy, I'm going to get someone to draw a cartoon depicting me with a 6 pack.
2014/05/21 20:57:05
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Your getting into the muck when your trying to relate stereotypes to reality. It's a tentative connection at best and kind of a incorporate one to make.
2014/05/21 20:57:47
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Hell if its that easy, I'm going to get someone to draw a cartoon depicting me with a 6 pack.
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
2014/05/21 21:04:05
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/05/21 21:05:31
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Melissia wrote: I'm not touching THAT level of nonsense with an eleven foot pole.
Well, facial hair is factually considered masculine rather than feminine. The rest may be stupid stereotype, but facial hair is factual . Of course there are exceptions with people that have strange mix of feminine and masculine phenotype, but they are exceptions.
(I am a bit surprised too that men live underground and elves are related to language and stuff like that)
Melissia wrote: We already had one thread devolve in to thirty pages of debate because of it, and that was just recently, never mind the long history of such discussions.
Which one?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact.
Okay.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Not okay. I mean, I fail to see the connection. Dwarves tends to be more muscular than elves, that is true, even though there are impressive exceptions (night elf from warcraft III, way more muscled than any dwarf in the game). There is also the facial hair stuff. Which other stereotypical male and female trait do you speak about? Arts and language are not “feminine”, just open any book related to art history or linguistic and you will find out. Actually, because of the traditional place of women in our society, the end result is that really, you will find much, much more male artists, writers or linguists than female ones. I am pretty sure you will find a lot of example of female peasants working on very hard manual labor, though.
Actually, in the last book I read, La bête humaine, a 1890 book by french writer Zola, which is in no way a feminist book, the strongest (physically) character is clearly, without a trace of doubt, the girl Flore, because she is doing ton of manual labor. However, she is certainly one of the least cultured too, and certainly will not be good at art and language .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/21 21:07:24
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Every single one in the 40k General Discussions where "Female Players" comes up, ever.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/05/21 21:07:27
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
It's Bud Lite, and you're now in hell, where there is nothing to drink but pisswater like Bud Lite.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:09:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/05/21 21:10:24
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Hell if its that easy, I'm going to get someone to draw a cartoon depicting me with a 6 pack.
Spoiler:
That was not realistic enough, so I improved it.
Spoiler:
Beer does that to your belly .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/21 21:12:49
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/21 21:16:49
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Arts and language are not “feminine”, just open any book related to art history or linguistic and you will find out. Actually, because of the traditional place of women in our society, the end result is that really, you will find much, much more male artists, writers or linguists than female ones. I am pretty sure you will find a lot of example of female peasants working on very hard manual labor, though.
These two are attributes most often relate to women, that's where I was getting at. What adds to this point, however, is that women tend to have a lead on men when it comes to language, especially at a younger age. Neuroscience n' stuff. Noone here doubts that there are many women working hard. It's just that there is a noticeable biological difference between men and women that cannot be talked away, no matter how hard you might want it to. These differences are one of the main reasons for certain gender roles and stereotypes still persisting nowadays and those were the main reason for patriarchs that are, fortunately, a thing of the past in civilized countries.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/05/21 21:28:27
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Sigvatr wrote: These two are attributes most often relate to women, that's where I was getting at.
Art and language?
I would have think it was actually sex and children, for some reason.
Really, I have never seen art or language as especially related to women.
Sigvatr wrote: It's just that there is a noticeable biological difference between men and women that cannot be talked away, no matter how hard you might want it to.
Yeah, stuff like penis, vagina and facial hair.
Sigvatr wrote: These differences are one of the main reasons for certain gender roles and stereotypes still persisting nowadays
Nope, totally disagree. Because certainly having no girl out of my 32 students in computer engineering does not come from penis, vaginas or facial hairs. However, society's influence is a very strong influence on this.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/21 21:31:30
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Not sure how overall body build and muscle density relates to computer engineering. Not sure how we could tell anything about different brain structure influence on picking computer science as a major if we cannot eliminate the huge bias created by society.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/21 21:40:33
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Not okay. I mean, I fail to see the connection.
Sorry, I was referring to the classic and "original" Tolkien-Fantasy Elven and Dwarven archetypes.
Dwarves tends to be more muscular than elves, that is true, even though there are impressive exceptions (night elf from warcraft III, way more muscled than any dwarf in the game). There is also the facial hair stuff. Which other stereotypical male and female trait do you speak about?
I was referring to physical strength.
Elves and Dwarves are of course fictional, so can be depicted in whatever way the author wishes (strong muscular Elves vs lithe and slender Elves, or the "Dwemer" of The Elder Scrolls depicted as human sized Elves with beards). But the original fantasy concepts of Elves and Dwarves as established by Tolkien (drawing inspiration from old folklore) do clearly draw on stereotypical male and female features (physical strength, facial hair, heavier weight for Dwarves; gracefulness, lighter weight and less physical strength for Elves) because the author intended them to.
Arts and language are not “feminine”, just open any book related to art history or linguistic and you will find out. Actually, because of the traditional place of women in our society, the end result is that really, you will find much, much more male artists, writers or linguists than female ones.
Correlation is not causation. Throughout history, until the last half century or so, men had far better access to education so naturally there were more male writers, linguists, mathematicians , scientists, doctors etc. Maybe in a few more decades or so of equal access to education for both sexes, we'll know conclusively whether certain sexes/genders naturally excel at certain tasks.
That not to say that one sex is superior to the other, or that a person can't/shouldn't do a task more commonly associated with the opposite sex if they want to, it just means that they'll be at a disadvantage and may have to work harder to achieve it.
I am pretty sure you will find a lot of example of female peasants working on very hard manual labor, though.
Which would qualify as training, as I said in the part you neglected to quote. The fact that they did hard manual labour helped improve their physical strength, but has nothing to do with whether or not one sex is more biologically inclined to developing physical strength.
Aggregated data of absolute strength indicates that females have 40-60% the upper body strength of males, and 70-75% the lower body strength.[61] The difference in strength relative to body mass is less pronounced in trained individuals.
Actually, in the last book I read, La bête humaine, a 1890 book by french writer Zola, which is in no way a feminist book, the strongest (physically) character is clearly, without a trace of doubt, the girl Flore, because she is doing ton of manual labor. However, she is certainly one of the least cultured too, and certainly will not be good at art and language .
Nope, totally disagree. Because certainly having no girl out of my 32 students in computer engineering does not come from penis, vaginas or facial hairs. However, society's influence is a very strong influence on this.
Wait, what? You're a computer engineering professor? I thought you work for GW as implied by your sig?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:43:23
2014/05/21 21:44:27
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
What does any of this have to do with the topic of people playing the opposite gender on video games?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:44:38
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/05/21 21:48:39
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Sorry, I was referring to the classic and "original" Tolkien-Fantasy Elven and Dwarven archetypes.
Me too.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: But the original fantasy concepts of Elves and Dwarves as established by Tolkien (drawing inspiration from old folklore) do clearly draw on stereotypical male and female features (physical strength, facial hair, heavier weight for Dwarves; gracefulness, lighter weight and less physical strength for Elves) because the author intended them to.
He did? I do not even remember the elves from LOTR as being less muscular than the dwarves. Maybe I read it too long ago. Also, men tend to be taller than women, but elves are pretty much always taller than dwarves.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Maybe in a few more decades or so of equal access to education for both sexes, we'll know conclusively whether certain sexes/genders naturally excel at certain tasks.
So, if we do not know yet and have no hint that women are better at art and language, why say that elves are more feminine because they are more proficient with art and language?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Wait, what? You're a computer engineering professor? I thought you work for GW as implied by your sig?
I am a PhD student, and my sig' is just a parody of H.B.M.C's. But it is also 100% true: I do not in any way speak on behalf of GW!
Melissia wrote: What does any of this have to do with the topic of people playing the opposite gender on video games?
Nothing. We are completely off-topic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 21:54:56
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/05/21 22:43:13
Subject: A Neat Article On Gender Swapping in Games
Melissia wrote: What does any of this have to do with the topic of people playing the opposite gender on video games?
Well the study was about how men playing female characters act different then women playing female characters and it implied that there was some inherent differences between the sexes that was making them jump more or something.
.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
