Group preparing to press military for atheist chaplain, source says

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**Jihadin**

In what some might see as an oxymoron, an advocacy group apparently is preparing to ask the Defense Department to appoint a chaplain -- for atheists.

A source tells Fox News that the Military Association of Atheists and Free Thinkers plans to make the request on Tuesday, floating its president Jason Torpy as the proposed chaplain.

Asked for comment, the association referred FoxNews.com to its position in support of a prior bid to name a "humanist" chaplain. The Defense Department has not yet returned requests for comment.

But an aide to Rep. John Fleming, R-La., who last year opposed the creation of such a position, said Monday that the congressman is "aware" of the revived push and "very concerned."

The move would come after lawmakers, including Fleming, battled over the same issue last year.

Democrats tried, unsuccessfully, to pass legislation creating such a post in 2013. In response, Republicans offered up a measure of their own to prohibit the Pentagon from naming such a chaplain. The House approved the measure in July.

With Congress at odds, though, the Defense Department could decide on its own.

A separate organization, The Humanist Society, endorsed Oxford-educated religious scholar Jason Heap last year to be the first-ever humanist chaplain in the U.S. Navy.

The MAAF supported the application. All along, the group has argued that more people identify as atheists and humanists than any other non-Christian denomination.

But Republican lawmakers who have fought these efforts have described the push as nonsensical. The motto of the Army Chaplain Corps is, after all, "Pro Deo et Patria," or "For God and Country."

Fleming said last year that the idea of an atheist chaplain is "an oxymoron."

"It's self-contradictory -- what you're really doing is now saying that we're going to replace true chaplains with non-chaplain chaplains," he said.

But the MAAF argues that military chaplains are not providing enough outreach for those who do not believe in God.

According to research in 2009 by the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute, about a quarter of military servicemembers who participated in the study said they had "no religious preference." More than 3.6 percent identified as humanist, while a little over 1 percent identified as pagan.

Several organizations and religious scholars have pressed the U.S. military to consider naming chaplains for those servicemembers.

"Such broad-based and growing support of professionals and experts should make it easy for the Department of Defense and the Navy to open their doors to diversity of belief that includes humanists and other nontheists," the group said in a statement last year.

Why create a position if there is no substance in the position itself?

**kronk**

Is there a genuine need? What would an "atheist chaplain" do that a counselor wouldn't? Do they have those in the armed forces?

**Frazzled**

Wouldn't have worked nearly as well in the Exorcist.

The Power of Nothing compels you! The power of Nothing compels you!

**Jihadin**

We have counselors and those of religion not represent in the Armed Forces have their needs met in the public domain. I have yet to meet a Buddhist Chaplain

**-Shrike-**

Kronk's back to hitting cowbells...

On-topic, how would they reconcile their personal beliefs with the Chaplain Corps' motto?

**Frazzled**

Chaplain Corps' motto?

"Holy crap that was close!" Now thats a motto.

**SilverMK2**

There is a stigma present with counselors which is not present with chaplins. They also offer slightly different services. A chaplin can support you in ways a counselor cannot, even if you and they are non-religious or non-theist.

I support the move to better support non-religious and humanist/etc service people.

**Jihadin**

My advice be. Ask their NCO's. If that doesn't pan out then I help the individual with his/her issue. But if the issue is something that's common like..

Prayer before rolling out the wire
Prayer before boarding the aircraft to jump
Prayer before doing something hazardous to one's health and mind

My advice be to block out the Chaplain and pray to yourself to do your best and have cat like reflexes and Ninja eye sight. Respect the position of the Chaplain not the Religion he represent.

Though on two occasions I have taking warpath on forcing a couple of individuals in my platoon and one other in another platoon of being "mandatory" to go to a prayer breakfest.

**djones520**

kronk wrote:
Is there a genuine need? What would an "atheist chaplain" do that a counselor wouldn't? Do they have those in the armed forces?

Chaplains work on a different level then counselors. There is also a different stigma to them. You go see a counselor, many worry that it'll get back to the command and have career repercussions. While in most cases, it isn't true, the stigma is still there. Meeting with a chaplain is a private matter, a decision I can make without command influence or the like. I can speak with them about anything, and be confident of total confidentiality. Counselors, they don't have that. They are obliged to report certain things.

Now, as an Atheist I have had occasion to seek counsel from a chaplain on a couple of occasions. While religion never entered the discussion, there was an underlying concern on my part that it would, and were it not for the prompting of a supervisor, I probably never would have gone because I was concerned about it. Having the option to see an atheist chaplain, would have mitigated that, and probably made me more open to seeing one. As I'm sure it would with others.

Now... that being said, I'm sure this push is more a stunt then anything else, because most times we hear about "atheist inclusion", it usually is just a stunt.

**Platuan4th**

All powerful Atheismo needs his chaplains to represent.

**kronk**

djones520 wrote:

Now... that being said, I'm sure this push is more a stunt then anything else, because most times we hear about "atheist inclusion", it usually is just a stunt.

That was my concern and why I asked.

Thanks for your input, maynard!

**purplefood**

Platuan4th wrote:
All powerful Atheismo needs his chaplains to represent.

I'd totally join a religion if the god was Atheismo

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Frazzled wrote:
Wouldn't have worked nearly as well in the Exorcist.

The Power of Nothing compels you! The power of Nothing compels you!

Hey, nothing is pretty powerful. How do you destroying nothing? How do you face nothingness? You will just starve, dehydrate and suffocate before the power of nothing!

**dementedwombat**

purplefood wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
All powerful Atheismo needs his chaplains to represent.

I'd totally join a religion if the god was Atheismo

Wasn't there a chaos god of atheism at some point?

On topic, what djones says sounds pretty reasonable to me. What I take from that is more that the armed forces needs to work on getting rid of the stigma surrounding counselors than that they need to include atheist chaplains (or even merge the two positions somehow).

Although if this goes through it would be rather amusing as ammo for the "atheism is too a religion" argument.

EDIT: What I want is a Transhumanist chaplain. That would be hilarious in all kinds of ways.

**Blacksails**

I'll chime in as a Canadian.

Our military chaplains are not strictly for religious counsel, but fill numerous roles that involve supporting those who need support. They are the people you see outside your chain of command when you need to talk about a problem that you may not immediately want to alert your superiors.

Chaplains are outside any of our organizations, regularly sit and chat with anyone and everyone on the base to get a feel for morale. They help advise the senior officers on any number of morale issues going around the base.

Finally, they help counsel on matters of faith for the specific denomination and run church services.

As an atheist myself, I would like to see a chaplain who existed to serve in same capacity as the others, but without the pretense of religion. If I was having a personal crisis that I wanted counsel, I would much prefer seeking that from someone who shares the same atheistic beliefs as myself.

They may not run church services, but I'd much prefer to hear a 'Humanist' chaplain speak at events instead of the same Christian Chaplains, especially when our military is made up of a diverse number of religious groups. At all of our public services, the chaplains pray to the same RC or Prot god, but in a modern, secular military as Canada is, its increasingly an out-dated practice when many in the ranks share other beliefs, or no beliefs at all.

**ZultanQ**

As ridiculous as this sounds, I could see a good reason for this. I left the army last year and these days chaplains are more like secular advisors than religious ones, so their religion doesn't matter anyway, because 1) they don't try to press religion on anyone unless you ask about it, and 2) some of them are probably somewhat reticent to even bring it up due to recent pressures from liberal groups forcing chaplains to compromise their beliefs for their careers, like stance on gay marriage, etc.

As mentioned already, seeing a chaplain isn't a big deal, seeing a counselor is... eh, can be a bad idea. An atheist chaplain would simply be an officer who works with soldiers to deal with issues when they can't go to anyone else. US military chaplains don't have to tell anyone anything you say, even if you tell them you plan to mass murder your entire company tomorrow, and they cannot forced to testify in a court of law concerning you without your permission. Obviously if you tell a chaplain you're going to go full Major Hasan tomorrow they will make sure you are stopped, but you get what I mean.

**chaos0xomega**

Wouldn't the better alternative be to create 'non-affiliated' chaplains who can offer the services of a chaplain to those who are either atheist, have no religious preference, or aren't represented by a faith-specific chaplain? Or better yet, just make the entire chaplain corps non-affiliated, with certain chaplains specializing in Christianity/Catholicism/Judaism/Islam/Buddhism/what-have-you?

You know, for something thats so politicized, politicians really don't do a very good job of playing the 'politics' game... A lot of these 'issues' could be circumvented using different vocabulary and wording to make it more palatable to the political opposition...

**Blacksails**

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wouldn't the better alternative be to create 'non-affiliated' chaplains who can offer the services of a chaplain to those who are either atheist, have no religious preference, or aren't represented by a faith-specific chaplain? Or better yet, just make the entire chaplain corps non-affiliated, with certain chaplains specializing in Christianity/Catholicism/Judaism/Islam/Buddhism/what-have-you?

Well, yeah, the article speaks about calling them 'Humanist', but 'non-affiliated' works too.

Details, but I see where you're coming from.

**Platuan4th**

dementedwombat wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
All powerful Atheismo needs his chaplains to represent.

I'd totally join a religion if the god was Atheismo
Wasn't there a chaos god of atheism at some point?

Maybe? I was making a Futurama reference.

**SilverMK2**

chaos0xomega wrote:
You know, for something thats so politicized, politicians really don't do a very good job of playing the 'politics' game... A lot of these 'issues' could be circumvented using different vocabulary and wording to make it more palatable to the political opposition...

Words have power and meaning. Creating new terms for something that already exists is saying that the things classified by the new term are not as good as the things classed under thr old term... despite them being 99.9% the same.

Perhaps coming at it from the other direction by saying that they should not be playing with words in order to pander to certain groups.

**Grey Templar**

Atheist Chaplain is inherently contradictory. If you need to see a shrink, go see the shrink.

Ultimately, both positions should have strict confidentiality unless there is a clear threat to either the person seeking counsel or those around him.

If there is a stigma to seeing one over the other and it prevents you from using one, well, that's your problem.

**SilverMK2**

Grey Templar wrote:
Atheist Chaplain is inherently contradictory. If you need to see a shrink, go see the shrink.

Ultimately, both positions should have strict confidentiality unless there is a clear threat to either the person seeking counsel or those around him.

If there is a stigma to seeing one over the other and it prevents you from using one, well, that's your problem.

Comgratulations for highlighting the kind of issues and stigma there are attached to non-chaplain advice and support services.

**Johnnytorrance**

So, how does the atheist group feel about when their Atheist chaplain has to give a benediction, or when he gets tasked to do bible study or church services?

**SilverMK2**

I can't speak for the group but if their duties include ministering to other faiths I would imagine the person who applied for and trained for the position would be more than happy to step in to do such things. If I knew how, I'd be happy to lead a religious group if no one more suitable were available and I am extremely non-religious.

**Iron_Captain**

I fail to see the added benefit of an atheist 'chaplain'.
Can someone please explain to me what in Heaven's name an atheist chaplain is supposed to do? Pray to nothing?

Our God, Who dost not exist,
Unhallowed be Thy Name.
Thy scientific knowledge come.
Thy Will won't be done, for Thou art not real. Give us this day our daily evolution.
And forgive us our superstitions,
as we forgive those who would be so ignorant as to believe in creationism.
And lead us not into theocracy,
but deliver us from religion. Amen.

**dracpanzer**

Being both an Atheist and Marine Corps grunt who fought in two wars. I can say that the Chaplains I served with were very professional in supporting those of any denomination. Having suffered through the stress of the job AND the loss of my mother while forward deployed the Chaplain was more than adequate ss a voice of reason outside my direct chain of command. This entire concept is offensive to the Chaplain corps. Who have been providing a voice of reason to American servicemen since its inception.

We did enjoy some rather lively debate in our lighter moments as well.

My favorite from our Chaplain was this.

"Still an Atheist Cpl?"

"Yes Sir!"

"Swear to God?"

**Jihadin**

I've yet to see a Wiccan Chaplian being its one of the authorized religion the US Armed Forces allow I see no press for that happening

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drac. I had some good one to when I proclaimed I was Bacchus follower and our Chaplain was behind us. He piped up behind me "I can the wine but not the sex and since we're in a Muslim country and General Order Number One in the theater is no drinking and no sex you need to keep on the low down"

**purplefood**

Iron_Captain wrote:
I fail to see the added benefit of an atheist 'chaplain'.
Can someone please explain to me what in Heaven's name an atheist chaplain is supposed to do? Pray to nothing?

Our God, Who dost not exist,
Unhallowed be Thy Name.
Thy scientific knowledge come.
Thy Will won't be done, for Thou art not real. Give us this day our daily evolution.
And forgive us our superstitions,
as we forgive those who would be so ignorant as to believe in creationism.
And lead us not into theocracy,
but deliver us from religion. Amen.

"Okay guys do we all still not believe in any higher power or deity?"
"Okay good go kill people!"

**Blacksails**

Iron_Captain wrote:
I fail to see the added benefit of an atheist 'chaplain'.
Can someone please explain to me what in Heaven's name an atheist chaplain is supposed to do? Pray to nothing?

While the prayer got a chuckle from me, did you read the thread where its been explained what chaplains probably spend most of their time doing?

**Jihadin**

"Okay guys do we all still not believe in any higher power or deity?"
"Okay good go kill people!"

I said that a few times but different structure