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I get the feeling Creed has been been nerfed even more than he used to be. Already in the old codex nobody really took him (unless you played Apoc) because paying 85 points to get a 3 additional orders just wasnt worth it. He can give one less order now, but for that can re-roll all failed order checks. However, he can only issue orders that require a Senior Officer, effectively only allowing him 3 out of 9 commands, while a normal Company Commander with a vox caster among his retinue can issue 2 and any of the 9 with the same level of efficiency. You would be asinine to include Creed in your armylist.

Not quite. Creed is a Senior Officer. He can issue all nine orders, just like a regular company commander. He also essentially gives a "free" voxcaster to all units he gives an order to, including units that don't normally get them (heavy weapon squads, thudd gun batteries, etc). He is certainly not useless. You just need to make sure there are enough units that benefit from his ability set when putting him in the list.

Creed was straight nerfed (same with Straken) from his old incarnation.

Shame really.

The real blow to creed is no longer being able to scout in a Warlord Titan for the lulz.

 Kain wrote:
The real blow to creed is no longer being able to scout in a Warlord Titan for the lulz.

Its possible he rolls that warlord trait though.

The problem with Creed and Straken is that you're paying a TON of points for no real reason.. Why is Creed 85 pts more than a senior officer? There just isn't a good reason to use him over Yarrick.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The real blow to creed is no longer being able to scout in a Warlord Titan for the lulz.

Its possible he rolls that warlord trait though.

A rerolled 1/6 chance of doing so per game just can't compare to the old "he may just have hidden a baneblade behind a lamp post" shenanigans he once pulled in every game.

 Kain wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The real blow to creed is no longer being able to scout in a Warlord Titan for the lulz.

Its possible he rolls that warlord trait though.

A rerolled 1/6 chance of doing so per game just can't compare to the old "he may just have hidden a baneblade behind a lamp post" shenanigans he once pulled in every game.

Oh, I agree, I'm just pointing that is within the realm of possibility he can outflank a titan.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Not quite. Creed is a Senior Officer. He can issue all nine orders, just like a regular company commander. He also essentially gives a "free" voxcaster to all units he gives an order to, including units that don't normally get them (heavy weapon squads, thudd gun batteries, etc). He is certainly not useless. You just need to make sure there are enough units that benefit from his ability set when putting him in the list.

Ah.

I mistook the sentence:

"Creed can issue orders that can only be issued by models with the Senior Officer special rule"

for

"Creed can only issue orders that can be issued by models with the Senior Officer special rule"

Well the re-roll failed orders is good, like Panzer said. I only really wanted to give "Bring it Down" or "Fire on my Target" to heavy weapon squads and special weapon squads so the re-roll helps with the LD7. Two warlord traits gives a good chance to get some nice bonuses. (18" order range or outflank d3 units or my favorites) It saves you having to buy vox casters, helps mitigate the random warlord chart. Also the Voice of Command rule lets him issue the standard orders and his Supreme Commander rule lets him issue Senior officer orders. I think he's a fun choice, not auto include but viable. Yes I do miss his outflank ability but hey you have the chance to outflank up to 3 Warlord titans now.

TlDr: Fun and Fluffy, not auto include. Won't lose the game just because you paid for him too.

The problem is that all of the AM named characters are very over priced. At their listed points they're fine, but Creed and Straken replace your CCS commander, so that's a 60 points tax right there.

I liked the idea (but rarely used) the more specialist characters who could replace sgts and platoon commanders, again because they were so points heavy. The problem is that all the IG characters (cept Yarrick and Straken) still insta die from S6 attacks.

I was never a big fan of named characters, they always felt like too many points in one basket, but that's one area that the new codex stinks.

If only they weren't upgrade characters but just Independent Characters like Yarrick.

Creed, Straken, and Harker go nerfed.

 portugus wrote:
Well the re-roll failed orders is good, like Panzer said. I only really wanted to give "Bring it Down" or "Fire on my Target" to heavy weapon squads and special weapon squads so the re-roll helps with the LD7. Two warlord traits gives a good chance to get some nice bonuses. (18" order range or outflank d3 units or my favorites) It saves you having to buy vox casters, helps mitigate the random warlord chart. Also the Voice of Command rule lets him issue the standard orders and his Supreme Commander rule lets him issue Senior officer orders. I think he's a fun choice, not auto include but viable. Yes I do miss his outflank ability but hey you have the chance to outflank up to 3 Warlord titans now.

TlDr: Fun and Fluffy, not auto include. Won't lose the game just because you paid for him too.

Exactly. Which is why I'll say it again: if you include Creed, build your list around him. Take units that benefit from his abilities. He's a scalpel character. You can't just toss him into a list on a whim and expect him to kick ass. But if you build a list with lots of order eligible units and park him in the center (preferrably inside a Chimera), he'll certainly add alot of value.

Creed is worse than before. He lost his outflank ability, he lost an order, he lost "For the Honor of Cadia". New abilities are simply not worth the points...shame he is not IC, that would be something...

Creed is definitely usable, but expect people to fall into the delusional idea that since a unit got nerfed it is no longer worth it.

He works best if you're using multiple HWS with LD/morale buffers on them to boot - I've thought about using Primaris Psykers, the Creed CCS and multiple LC/AC HWS' to give a reliable order network, as Creed is the only real way, or if my memory fails me one of the only ways to give the HWS re-rolls on orders.

So having prescience+tankhunters/ignores cover on all 3 HWS' every turn makes him worth it in my opinion.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Creed is definitely usable, but expect people to fall into the delusional idea that since a unit got nerfed it is no longer worth it.

He works best if you're using multiple HWS with LD/morale buffers on them to boot - I've thought about using Primaris Psykers, the Creed CCS and multiple LC/AC HWS' to give a reliable order network, as Creed is the only real way, or if my memory fails me one of the only ways to give the HWS re-rolls on orders.

So having prescience+tankhunters/ignores cover on all 3 HWS' every turn makes him worth it in my opinion.

Ignoring the 'delusional idea' comment, you're effectively paying 80pts + 50pts to make at most 315pts a little bit better. HWS are inherently fragile, and even behind an ADL, anything S6 is splatting a team and forcing a Ld check on 7, unless you're spending more points just to keep them from running.

I mean, think about it, you're paying nearly 50% extra just to make a fragile unit a little better on the offense. They're still only effectively 6 Guardsmen, and they're still only Ld7. Spending 80pts for Tank hunter/ignore cover, and then an additional 50pts to make one of them TL doesn't strike me as a great or effective deal.

And that's the problem with Creed. No matter what you use him for, you'd probably just be better buying a second CCS which gives you more benefits. Hell, for the cost of Creed, you can buy a second CCS, and 4 voxes to get those re-rolls on orders.

If he was a 30-40pts upgrade, I could see using him. At 80pts though, nope.

 Blacksails wrote:

And that's the problem with Creed. No matter what you use him for, you'd probably just be better buying a second CCS which gives you more benefits. Hell, for the cost of Creed, you can buy a second CCS, and 4 voxes to get those re-rolls on orders.

If he was a 30-40pts upgrade, I could see using him. At 80pts though, nope.

There it is. 60 points for two more orders and a CCS to kit out is better.

And what is the point in Kell? So ordered units can use his awe-inspiring leadership of 8?

 TheSilo wrote:

And what is the point in Kell? So ordered units can use his awe-inspiring leadership of 8?

I never noticed it was on Kell's leadership. Just when I thought he couldn't get any worse.

Either way, think of Creed as a CCS with a Lascannon. Given the choice, I know which one I'd want.