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2014/05/20 07:34:24
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Did the WraithKnight just become the single most powerful model?
Obviously it was pretty beastly before but if unbound rumours are accurate you can now have an entire army of them.
At 1850 you can have 7 and they aren't limited in what they can kill.
Yes tarpitting them is an option but they'll stomp their way through stuff eventually.
I don't really think I can think of another model that can be so utilised in unbound.
I fixed that for you.
Riptides suck without support. You NEED markerlights or a buffcommander to make them not overcosted. Without those, they don't do anything that people remember them for, and that is the s8 ap2 cover ignoring plate. It doesn't cover ignore without the support.
Wraithknights, however, can instant-kill anything from 36" away with their 2x s10ap2 BS4 guns. Plus they're harder to kill than riptides (T8 W6 vs T6 W5). The army of all wraithknights moves faster and is far better in melee.
I think my Plague Marines just shat themselves.
2014/05/20 07:54:22
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
I find passive aggressive messages in people's signatures quite amusing.
2014/05/20 07:54:23
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Did the WraithKnight just become the single most powerful model?
Obviously it was pretty beastly before but if unbound rumours are accurate you can now have an entire army of them.
At 1850 you can have 7 and they aren't limited in what they can kill.
Yes tarpitting them is an option but they'll stomp their way through stuff eventually.
I don't really think I can think of another model that can be so utilised in unbound.
I fixed that for you.
Riptides suck without support. You NEED markerlights or a buffcommander to make them not overcosted. Without those, they don't do anything that people remember them for, and that is the s8 ap2 cover ignoring plate. It doesn't cover ignore without the support.
Wraithknights, however, can instant-kill anything from 36" away with their 2x s10ap2 BS4 guns. Plus they're harder to kill than riptides (T8 W6 vs T6 W5). The army of all wraithknights moves faster and is far better in melee.
You missed the part about riptides being able to buy FNP, having an invulnerable save by default, a superior armor save, and the potential to have a 3++ save.
Of course, the Wraithknight can always have fortune and renewal put on it, but so can the Riptide.
The Wraithknight is more durable in other ways and is indeed the superior unit in melee (a glaive knight is capable of punching a scythed heirodule to death with a little bit better than average odds, FML) but it's hard to overstate how hard it is to kill a riptide.
Did the WraithKnight just become the single most powerful model?
Obviously it was pretty beastly before but if unbound rumours are accurate you can now have an entire army of them.
At 1850 you can have 7 and they aren't limited in what they can kill.
Yes tarpitting them is an option but they'll stomp their way through stuff eventually.
I don't really think I can think of another model that can be so utilised in unbound.
I fixed that for you.
Riptides suck without support. You NEED markerlights or a buffcommander to make them not overcosted. Without those, they don't do anything that people remember them for, and that is the s8 ap2 cover ignoring plate. It doesn't cover ignore without the support.
Wraithknights, however, can instant-kill anything from 36" away with their 2x s10ap2 BS4 guns. Plus they're harder to kill than riptides (T8 W6 vs T6 W5). The army of all wraithknights moves faster and is far better in melee.
I think my Plague Marines just shat themselves.
On one hand you have poison in assault so you don't care about it's T8, you're wounding it on a 4+ and it has a 3+ armor save.
On the other hand it strikes first, deals out instant death, and has the better WS value. And again, a Wraithknight, especially with a sunshield, can compete with a Scything Heirodule in melee and win with either average or better than average odds for half the points. One with fortune and prescience and a sunshield? The poor Heirodule never had a chance.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/20 08:00:03
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2014/05/20 09:01:38
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
We'll see how good your riptides are when I can take an army of nothing but pure slugga boys, no uprages or anything. I just want to see how many models i can fit on the table at once. Honestly this unboud thing is making me all giddy (as a primarily ork player)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 09:01:56
=6000
=4000
2014/05/20 09:04:19
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
My DE Venom spam and the boyz list laughs at a bare riptide list, and the Wraithknight list for that matter. In theory I could knock out 2 turn for the first two turns and then it gets really ugly for the Tau. Funny enough these and nidzilla are the only armies I could really say that about and get away with it.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2014/05/20 12:26:13
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Yeah i'm not a competition player.
I just had a thought that a 9 riptide list would be nigh impossible to beat.
That's not really based on facts. Just my opinion on how powerful the rippy is.
You cant realistically take more than 2 down in a turn (maybe 3 if you have some luck) or have prepared for the list.
By then they'll be in CC with things that are squishy.
Tar-pitting works both ways.
I would just like to say i would never actually take 9 riptides.
I don't think it would end nicely. I just see it being even more crazy than it already is is spammed on mass.
Blasts don't often miss by so much it's an issue (maybe I've been lucky).
An alternative is 44ish independent crisis suits with a variety of twin-linked weapons (at 1850).
It wouldn't be a serious list. I do think the Wraiths would likely have the edge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 12:30:40
2014/05/20 12:33:35
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single best model?
nosferatu1001 wrote: 250 boyz, swarming the tbale so ouo have nowhere to move, and at 2" coherency blasts arent doing a lot...would be interesting
Good luck maintaining the 2" coherency without:
- Running out of board space
- Taking 2 hours per player turn.
I've seen a 180+ boyz list be played very quickly. Good use of GF9 movement markers to keep 2" spacing, and a general strategic attitude of "run forwards and kill it"
2014/05/20 12:46:32
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
1850 gets me a lot of poisoned hormagaunts who are fast enough to close, don't care about T6, and will drown you in attacks. Good luck smashing your way through that.
2014/05/20 12:59:47
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
They are solid plastic shapes which have 6", 2" and 1" sides, so you can easily make sure you are at max coherency etc. SPeeds play up markedly over a tape measure.
2014/05/20 14:57:08
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Any army with massed poison and/or assault ability will maul the Riptide list. Now the 44ish crisis... I think I could handle it with my DE but it would be much bloodier, especially depending on tactics. The starting ones on the board would be whittled down heavily in the first round(but not wiped) but the DSing ones would devastate the DE depending on how they were armed, although the now dismounted troops would hurt them as fast as they dropped.
I did like the part that its up to the players to decide what kind of forces to play so if you do not want to play an unbound list and if TO organizers do not wish to allow them, GW put a nice loophole in their making it perfectly acceptable to say no.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2014/05/20 15:19:56
Subject: Re:Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
The riptide has excellent mobility and durability, but it's damage output isn't particularly high for the price point. A heldrake can kill far more per turn, but is significantly easier to hurt and destroy, and the Wraithknight is nigh-unkillable by most armies, while also being quite mobile and having better damage output.
All these, however, fail to realize the single most powerful model in 40k; a Herald with the Grimoire of True names. ~70 points to make any unit virtually indestructible. With 7th around the corner, any psyker herald with the book can give any daemon unit a 2+ invlunerable, and as an ally can give the Heldrake a 3+ invlunerable, which may very well make that the most powerful unit out there.
Remember, a Riptide doesn't clear the board of units, it is most useful at absorbing hits and engaging enemy elite units at range while avoiding melee contact with non-vehicles. (The fact it can handidly kill any walker is a travesty, but that's another matter entirely). It can't really perform crowd control, relies on other, squishy units to get ignores cover, has awful BS, WS and I, and has the chance to wound itself in order to get a good invulnerable. I used one for a while before selling it (I don't like too powerful units), and it's very good, but has very real, exploitable weaknesses. If any army can fight terminators, it can kill a riptide.
A turkey can threaten everything on the board that doesn't have a 2+ armour or 3+ invlunerable at almost any time, ignoring cover by default and dealing a high volume of wounds with every shot, never worrying about BS or any of its own stats. It can not be engaging in combat, pinned down, negated with psychic abilities, and relies on lucky shots or weapons which can only hurt it on a 5+ to damage it, while it can regenerate lost hullpoints and can be buffed to a 3+ invuln itself quite easily. It simply has no weaknesses, and can single handidly destroy armies. Only an army with a counter-air force can fight one, and can still be killed with vector strikes while the turkey continues to torch ground units. The only ground based AA I know of which can really hurt it is the Marine Hunter, one of the only AP2 skyfire weapons with good chances to pen, but has the dubious distinction of being a part of the army the turkey is best suited to kill.
And it's much uglier than the Riptide.
I think the perception of the 'tide as the "best unit ever" comes from the fact it's in an otherwise powerful army. Same with the Wraithknight. They're very good units, in very good armies. The turkey is better, but it's in an otherwise terrible army, it's a crutch which keeps Chaos alive in most cases, whereas the other two "top tier models" simply build upon already very good armies.
i like some of the analysis here, there is one missing factor, (and iv said it before) the drake is deadly to marines, and useless against mobs of boys or equiv. if your opponent is smart ( no offense to anyone) they spread out and that template can hit 5 and kill 4 (on average) marines. nasty. killing 4 boys in mobs of 30... doesnt make a drop in the pond of the tide, The drakes day in the light is (or should be) gone. it was the original scare monster and people easily remember its heyday. id be much more worried about Wave serpents, riptides (xv-107 to the list), wraith knights etc than drakes. id put them at about 6th on my list of concerns esp with unbound as mentioned. for 1850 you can get 30 wyverns, now at str 4 (iirc) they arent much of a threat at this stage to the rest, but a great infantry of all armors killer.
anecdotally iv have trip drakes against trip WK and ...... well it was ugly.. the wraith knights... beat-down all i can say.
my list of nastys would be if spammed:
1) wraithknight
2) riptide
3) wave serpent
4) wyvern
5) heldrake
Did the WraithKnight just become the single most powerful model?
Obviously it was pretty beastly before but if unbound rumours are accurate you can now have an entire army of them.
At 1850 you can have 7 and they aren't limited in what they can kill.
Yes tarpitting them is an option but they'll stomp their way through stuff eventually.
I don't really think I can think of another model that can be so utilised in unbound.
I fixed that for you.
Riptides suck without support. You NEED markerlights or a buffcommander to make them not overcosted. Without those, they don't do anything that people remember them for, and that is the s8 ap2 cover ignoring plate. It doesn't cover ignore without the support.
Wraithknights, however, can instant-kill anything from 36" away with their 2x s10ap2 BS4 guns. Plus they're harder to kill than riptides (T8 W6 vs T6 W5). The army of all wraithknights moves faster and is far better in melee.
You missed the part about riptides being able to buy FNP, having an invulnerable save by default, a superior armor save, and the potential to have a 3++ save.
Of course, the Wraithknight can always have fortune and renewal put on it, but so can the Riptide.
The Wraithknight is more durable in other ways and is indeed the superior unit in melee (a glaive knight is capable of punching a scythed heirodule to death with a little bit better than average odds, FML) but it's hard to overstate how hard it is to kill a riptide.
Did the WraithKnight just become the single most powerful model?
Obviously it was pretty beastly before but if unbound rumours are accurate you can now have an entire army of them.
At 1850 you can have 7 and they aren't limited in what they can kill.
Yes tarpitting them is an option but they'll stomp their way through stuff eventually.
I don't really think I can think of another model that can be so utilised in unbound.
I fixed that for you.
Riptides suck without support. You NEED markerlights or a buffcommander to make them not overcosted. Without those, they don't do anything that people remember them for, and that is the s8 ap2 cover ignoring plate. It doesn't cover ignore without the support.
Wraithknights, however, can instant-kill anything from 36" away with their 2x s10ap2 BS4 guns. Plus they're harder to kill than riptides (T8 W6 vs T6 W5). The army of all wraithknights moves faster and is far better in melee.
I think my Plague Marines just shat themselves.
On one hand you have poison in assault so you don't care about it's T8, you're wounding it on a 4+ and it has a 3+ armor save.
On the other hand it strikes first, deals out instant death, and has the better WS value. And again, a Wraithknight, especially with a sunshield, can compete with a Scything Heirodule in melee and win with either average or better than average odds for half the points. One with fortune and prescience and a sunshield? The poor Heirodule never had a chance.
sorry i spoiler tagged the whole thing. just want to mention you (rumoured) can no longer fortune tau stuff.. woot woot. no longer battlebrothers come 7th ed. allies of convenience at best. (tau-dar should hopefully be dead)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 15:22:29
sorry i spoiler tagged the whole thing. just want to mention you (rumoured) can no longer fortune tau stuff.. woot woot. no longer battlebrothers come 7th ed. allies of convenience at best. (tau-dar should hopefully be dead)
I sincerely doubt that the Tau are going to be a battle brotherless army.
If it's not Taudar or Taurines, it'll be something else like Tau militarum. GW's stupidity is such that whenever they fix one thing they introduce another just as terrible problem.
Also there are just as many rumors that everyone is BB's with everyone in an unbound list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 15:30:00
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2014/05/20 15:31:13
Subject: Re:Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
sorry i spoiler tagged the whole thing. just want to mention you (rumoured) can no longer fortune tau stuff.. woot woot. no longer battlebrothers come 7th ed. allies of convenience at best. (tau-dar should hopefully be dead)
I sincerely doubt that the Tau are going to be a battle brotherless army.
If it's not Taudar or Taurines, it'll be something else like Tau militarum. GW's stupidity is such that whenever they fix one thing they introduce another just as terrible problem.
Also there are just as many rumors that everyone is BB's with everyone in an unbound list.
its looking as rumours go:
IOM Eldar/DE CSM/daemons.
aand the rest are out on their own.
but thats just rumours... thats for BB rating anyway we can almost hope.
sorry i spoiler tagged the whole thing. just want to mention you (rumoured) can no longer fortune tau stuff.. woot woot. no longer battlebrothers come 7th ed. allies of convenience at best. (tau-dar should hopefully be dead)
I sincerely doubt that the Tau are going to be a battle brotherless army.
If it's not Taudar or Taurines, it'll be something else like Tau militarum. GW's stupidity is such that whenever they fix one thing they introduce another just as terrible problem.
Also there are just as many rumors that everyone is BB's with everyone in an unbound list.
its looking as rumours go:
IOM Eldar/DE CSM/daemons.
aand the rest are out on their own.
but thats just rumours... thats for BB rating anyway we can almost hope.
Oh look at that, the nonhuman/elf armies get screwed.
Feth that.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2014/05/20 15:42:36
Subject: Re:Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
sorry i spoiler tagged the whole thing. just want to mention you (rumoured) can no longer fortune tau stuff.. woot woot. no longer battlebrothers come 7th ed. allies of convenience at best. (tau-dar should hopefully be dead)
I sincerely doubt that the Tau are going to be a battle brotherless army.
If it's not Taudar or Taurines, it'll be something else like Tau militarum. GW's stupidity is such that whenever they fix one thing they introduce another just as terrible problem.
Also there are just as many rumors that everyone is BB's with everyone in an unbound list.
its looking as rumours go:
IOM Eldar/DE CSM/daemons.
aand the rest are out on their own.
but thats just rumours... thats for BB rating anyway we can almost hope.
Oh look at that, the nonhuman/elf armies get screwed.
Feth that.
well IOM these days is basically marines/silver/red and grey marines/SOB and inquisition
the rest kinda make sense in a BB way
and some of that IG/AM being AoC is ok as well... eldar needed to be chopped back a little though i am waiting to see how the entire book plays out etc... could be ok overall... and remember unbound where its all good to do whatever lol
IF you choose to play an unbound game. I will not be playing them and I doubt you will see them allowed in Tournies.
Not sure why Chaos and IG aren't BB in order to allow for traitor guard.
Besides you can still team up, you just don't get to use cheeseball stuff like fortuning your ally. We will see in about 4 days exactly how this will play out.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2014/05/20 16:05:17
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Col. Dash wrote: IF you choose to play an unbound game. I will not be playing them and I doubt you will see them allowed in Tournies.
Not sure why Chaos and IG aren't BB in order to allow for traitor guard.
Besides you can still team up, you just don't get to use cheeseball stuff like fortuning your ally. We will see in about 4 days exactly how this will play out.
yes its the same as if i chose not to play you for the color of your shirt though, personal preferance and nothing more. BF and UB lists are both totally legal and rules'd to play against each other..
to add to that tourneys dont mean crap really... if they did we wouldnt barely play the missions in the book and there would be random houseruling everywhere. so they are not the be all and end all.
well because AOC is good enough really.. i can take russes, or whatever if i want in an even greater capacity than before now with BF than the old allies system.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 16:08:08
You are correct to a degree except this time GW has specifically said players need to agree whether they are playing Battle forged or Unbound games. Normally the only official agreement is points. Basically GW knows Unbound is broken and wanted to emphasize this ahead of time.
A Riptide or Wraithknight army has GW salivating on selling mass number of those figures and I think that was the exact point of doing it. Thankfully they put in a subtle warning in the instructions.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2014/05/20 19:35:57
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Col. Dash wrote: You are correct to a degree except this time GW has specifically said players need to agree whether they are playing Battle forged or Unbound games. Normally the only official agreement is points. Basically GW knows Unbound is broken and wanted to emphasize this ahead of time.
A Riptide or Wraithknight army has GW salivating on selling mass number of those figures and I think that was the exact point of doing it. Thankfully they put in a subtle warning in the instructions.
They're hoping we'll just lose our gak over being able to spam the most powerful everything.
I just want to fix a few issues that CSM have:
1) Take any CSM list w/ 0-1 heldrake, maximum.
2) Put Cult Marines or CSM in Drop Pods.
3) Play as normal, except effectively.
2014/05/20 19:54:29
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Col. Dash wrote: You are correct to a degree except this time GW has specifically said players need to agree whether they are playing Battle forged or Unbound games. Normally the only official agreement is points. Basically GW knows Unbound is broken and wanted to emphasize this ahead of time.
A Riptide or Wraithknight army has GW salivating on selling mass number of those figures and I think that was the exact point of doing it. Thankfully they put in a subtle warning in the instructions.
They're hoping we'll just lose our gak over being able to spam the most powerful everything.
I just want to fix a few issues that CSM have:
1) Take any CSM list w/ 0-1 heldrake, maximum.
2) Put Cult Marines or CSM in Drop Pods.
3) Play as normal, except effectively.
I want my cult terminators/raptors/havocs/helbrutes/bikers/lords/sorcerers/cultists.
Cult cultists heheheheh.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2014/05/21 00:18:23
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Col. Dash wrote: You are correct to a degree except this time GW has specifically said players need to agree whether they are playing Battle forged or Unbound games. Normally the only official agreement is points. Basically GW knows Unbound is broken and wanted to emphasize this ahead of time.
A Riptide or Wraithknight army has GW salivating on selling mass number of those figures and I think that was the exact point of doing it. Thankfully they put in a subtle warning in the instructions.
actually its the same as agreeing on points.... or shirt colors... they are designed to be played against each other so be expecting it to be allowed without consent. same as FW, or any of the other bs that people keep complaining about.
Col. Dash wrote: You are correct to a degree except this time GW has specifically said players need to agree whether they are playing Battle forged or Unbound games. Normally the only official agreement is points. Basically GW knows Unbound is broken and wanted to emphasize this ahead of time.
A Riptide or Wraithknight army has GW salivating on selling mass number of those figures and I think that was the exact point of doing it. Thankfully they put in a subtle warning in the instructions.
They're hoping we'll just lose our gak over being able to spam the most powerful everything.
I just want to fix a few issues that CSM have:
1) Take any CSM list w/ 0-1 heldrake, maximum.
2) Put Cult Marines or CSM in Drop Pods.
3) Play as normal, except effectively.
yeah we get 1 heldrake... bollox to that its the only thing that props my book up, and getting drop pods.. we need more than that
also it seems the rumour about taudar just got bunked... they are gonna be good to go, and csm just lost ig as AOC... woot woot.... sigh....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/21 00:37:08
Pretty sure my 20 Annihilation barges will be able to beat 9 riptides. Heck, I even have 50pts leftover. You think you wouldn't have friends playing nine riptides, you would probably get kicked in the gibblies for bringing 20 Anni barges. Necron leaf blower for the win and simultaneous loss.'
Anni Barges might not be the most powerful unit in the game but for the cost, they are hard to beat. (which is why they will get nerfed when the Necrons get a new codex)
2014/05/21 01:02:47
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
Warmonger2757 wrote: Pretty sure my 20 Annihilation barges will be able to beat 9 riptides. Heck, I even have 50pts leftover. You think you wouldn't have friends playing nine riptides, you would probably get kicked in the gibblies for bringing 20 Anni barges. Necron leaf blower for the win and simultaneous loss.'
Anni Barges might not be the most powerful unit in the game but for the cost, they are hard to beat. (which is why they will get nerfed when the Necrons get a new codex)
I was thinking that exact thing lol. 80 t/l str 7 shots add in all them 6's and you've got riptipes crying at so many saves to be made.
I was thinking 8 dreadknights with heavy incinerators and personal teleporters. Turn 2 close combat. "Hi riptide i have nemesis weapons and better initiative"
riptides are only scary when they go thier friends with them
I was thinking a great unbound list will be like 6 vindicare assassins and some techmarines with osr. Its not competitive at all but people will cry so much when your squads of super snipers hide out in 2+ cover with thier tech marine buddies,
Vindicare = hey check this out!
(snipes out sarge)
Tech = lol really watch this
(finishes squad with osr)
( both high five and have a nap)
A haiku, by Deadpool: I hate broccoli / And think it totally sucks / Why is it not meat?
2014/05/21 08:52:38
Subject: Did the riptide just become the single most powerful model?
=6000
=4000
20,000 Pts 
6000+ Pts
