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A real change: from austerity and welfare cuts to investment in decent jobs.
A real change: from privatisation for the benefit of the 1% to public management of essential services not driven by corporate greed.
A real change: from subsidies to fracking and dependence on fossil fuels to a sustainable world we can pass on to our children.
meaningless twaddle - what, when, how and why?.
Firstly a Keynesian program of government investment, such as housebuilding programs and investment in R&D in renewable energies to make the UK the world leader in green tech. Welfare becoming more universal rather than implementing stricter and stricter means tests, expensive and useless private work programmes and sanctions.
Renationalisation of the train service and post office. Opposition to TTIP which could potentially force through more privatisation of the NHS.
No contracts for companies like Cuadrilla to frack, heavy investment in green tech, subsidies for house builds to include solar, wind or geothermal in the build.
The only policy of UKIP's that I actually quite like is their Greenspace policy. Preserving the countryside is very important and having the ability to strong arm housing developers to use more brownfield sites would certainly be a good thing. It's such a shame that they will be worse for the Environment as a whole considering they don't acknowledge climate change. 1 Step forward 10 Steps back. Wonder where Farage was in the HS2 question?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/26 18:01:25
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
A real change: from austerity and welfare cuts to investment in decent jobs.
A real change: from privatisation for the benefit of the 1% to public management of essential services not driven by corporate greed.
A real change: from subsidies to fracking and dependence on fossil fuels to a sustainable world we can pass on to our children.
meaningless twaddle - what, when, how and why?.
Firstly a Keynesian program of government investment, such as housebuilding programs and investment in R&D in renewable energies to make the UK the world leader in green tech. Welfare becoming more universal rather than implementing stricter and stricter means tests, expensive and useless private work programmes and sanctions.
Renationalisation of the train service and post office. Opposition to TTIP which could potentially force through more privatisation of the NHS.
No contracts for companies like Cuadrilla to frack, heavy investment in green tech, subsidies for house builds to include solar, wind or geothermal in the build.
Would the greens ever actually do this though? if in power? No, no they would not.
As I said their vision could be spouted by any of the other main parties.
Firstly a Keynesian program of government investment, such as housebuilding programs and investment in R&D in renewable energies to make the UK the world leader in green tech. Welfare becoming more universal rather than implementing stricter and stricter means tests, expensive and useless private work programmes and sanctions.
Renationalisation of the train service and post office. Opposition to TTIP which could potentially force through more privatisation of the NHS.
No contracts for companies like Cuadrilla to frack, heavy investment in green tech, subsidies for house builds to include solar, wind or geothermal in the build.
Sounds good. To steal a line, 'where's the money?'. Because all those things cost vast amounts of it. And last time I checked, we were running an operational deficit. So either you're going to have to cut waaaaay more stuff to pay for it, or you're just going to rack up our national deficit to absolutely insane levels.
The Green Party's method is to select a third option:- raise more taxes to pay for your policies.
No confidence: an epitaph for Green politics in Brighton and Hove
January 26, 2014 · by Neil Schofield
It’s becoming a truism in Brighton and Hove that the city’s political crises unfold against a background of uncollected rubbish. Last summer’s crisis was of course all about refuse collection, and the dispute over council workers’ allowances; this time, as the ruling Green administration sets out its plans for a referendum on a 4.75% Council Tax rise, uncollected rubbish – for completely unrelated reasons – sits in the street. The image of a seagull picking at an uncollected refuse sack may turn out to be the epitaph for Green politics in Brighton and Hove.
And there seems to be little doubt that now is the time when epitaphs need to be written, with the Labour group on the Council proposing a motion of no-confidence in the administration at the Full Council meeting on 30 January. The proposal for a council tax increase of this magnitude is doomed to fail; the Greens’ reputation as a serious political party capable of running a medium-sized city is in tatters. What began with so much hope in 2011 – a promise of a new style of politics and resistance to austerity – now appears to be ending in complete failure.
In nearly three years in office, the list of failures is daunting – the CityClean dispute, the Seven Dials Elm Tree, the constant internal warfare inside the Green Party between Watermelon and Mango factions, the attempted coup against Jason Kitcat’s leadership, the Hanover and Elm Grove By-election – and now the decision to propose a referendum on a large Council Tax increase. And it is not just failures of policy: the experience of governing our city has cruelly exposed the Green methodology of “doing politics differently”. I have blogged about those systemic failures before but it’s worth summarising them once more.
First and foremost, there has been a failure of vision. What does the Green Party in Brighton and Hove stand for? Ask that question and you will get a range of answers – 20mph zones, higher parking charges, meat-free Mondays. Those are policy positions; probe further and ask for the strategic vision, and you will for the most part be met by silence. Or, more likely, ridicule and anger. Like Liberal Democrat community politicians – whom in method and approach they often resemble – they have discovered the hard way that Government is hard and testing, and requires something more than pure oppositionism.
Second, there has been a failure of competence. Greens claim to do politics differently: yet the administration has been a shambles. The recurrent refuse crises are just the tip of the iceberg; the record on recycling and air quality, core Green issues, is poor and lags badly behind other authorities. The Seven Dials Elm Tree episode probably marks the point where the Green administration turned into a laughing stock; a Green Council seeking to cut down a historical elm tree to facilitate a traffic scheme, a Green MP standing underneath it giving press conferences to save the tree, two Green Party activists camped in the tree, the Council Leader – in whose ward the tree was situated – nowhere to be seen and a councillor for the adjoining ward admitting to voting for the policy because she hadn’t read the papers. The politics of skipping the tragedy and moving straight to the farce, you might reasonably reflect.
And, as a self-proclaimed party of change, there has been a notable failure of advocacy. Take for example the policy of 20mph limits throughout the city – a popular policy implemented by many Labour and even some Tories councils elsewehere, but toxic here, because the administration has failed to sell it. It’s tempting to blame pressure groups like Unchain the Motorist, but the fact is that such groups have not sprung up in other cities and have not exercised anything like the same grip on the debate. Telling your electors they’re the problem has never been a productive way of doing things.
The latest moves to raise Council Tax display a failure that runs through the history of this administration – a failure of responsibility. Put simply, it’s a council’s job to set a budget. That’s what councillors are elected for. But then this is the same administration that sought to avoid responsibility in last summer’s Cityclean dispute, leaving crucial negotiations in the hands of officers. There appears to be an endemic culture within the Green Group of unwillingness to take tough decisions. It was obvious from the moment the Greens took office that they would need to deal with swingeing cuts – and indeed their manifesto gave a commitment to oppose cuts as far as they could. It’s not as if any of this came as a surprise. But here, as well as in the CityClean dispute, Greens chose to walk away from politics when the crunch came. It’s a fundamental failing.
And in the latest proposal for a Council Tax referendum, the Green Party continues to show a serious failure to understand the meaning of democracy. I have blogged before about how plebiscites are anti-politics, and how they play into the hands of people who want to undermine the processes that are such an essential part of democracy. The point about grown-up politics is that it often involves doing the right but unpopular thing; plebiscitary politics makes that immeasurably more difficult and plays into the hands of well-funded and well-organised lobby groups. In representative democracies it’s the job of politicians to make judgements. Yes, sometimes those judgements turn out to be wrong – obviously. But that’s life, and the alternatives tend to be rather worse. And even, in the depths of their naivety, does anyone in the Green Party seriously believe that Pickles’ introduction of council tax referendums in the Localism Act was designed to make councils more democratic? The terms of this particular piece of localism are set down entirely from the centre; even the wording on the ballot paper. This particular piece of democratic choice involves the Green administration effectively going cap in hand to Whitehall – a bit like a tousle-haired Oliver Twist asking Beadle Pickles for more.
And at heart the Greens have shown a failure to move beyond gesture politics – most notably in their ludicrous plans for a Progressive Council Tax. To place your claim to be opponents of austerity on this ill-conceived, completely unworkable and probably unlawful charade suggests a party that prefers the indulgence of protest to the mechanics of government – with the compromises that Government in a democracy inevitably entails. I have also blogged before about the limitations of Green politics in the context of the protests at Balcombe; the contrast between the Green comfort zone of protest and the demands of effecting real political change through democratic institutions. It’s a conflict the Green Party seems barely aware of, let alone close to resolving.
Moreover, for a party that claims to be the sole voice against austerity economics, its failure to oppose austerity and speak for the disadvantaged is particularly damning. It’s not just that the Green Party conference last autumn voted for an economic policy based on hardcore monetarist faddism; the current proposals to raise council tax by 4.75% reflect an inability of the Brighton party faithful – largely drawn from affluent professional backgrounds – to get their heads around the effects on so many of their fellow citizens. While it’s true that the overall effect of council tax is probably progressive, it is most deeply regressive for those just above the benefits level – the very people who have been hit hardest by austerity and have seen their standard of living fall the furthest. Yes, Caroline Lucas in Parliament and on BBC Question Time talks a good anti-austerity talk. But you do not become an anti-austerity party by supporting a tax rise that will raise £2.75m out of a total cut in grant of £24m, at a likely cost of £500k, with the burden falling hardest on some of the most vulnerable people in the city – people who have experienced forty months of soaring prices and steadily falling real pay, in a city whose living costs were already among the highest in Britain. At a time when many people in this city are choosing between eating and heating, and not just in its poorest areas either, to talk of a rise of “only” £6 per month is both breathtakingly out-of-touch and as potent a symbol as one could wish for of who the Green Party represents and comprises.
And finally, the Green Party’s internal structures – or lack of them – are symptomatic of a failure to move beyond the politics of personal indulgence. As I’ve blogged before, those who wield power and wealth are organised and united by networks that are often largely informal and massively pervasive. To take on that power – and effect real change – you need organisation and discipline. When you’re dealing with an entrenched establishment, one that is rapidly moving beyond even paying lip-service to democracy, they’re all you’ve got. Anything else is basically fancy dress outside foie-gras restaurants; picturesque, liable to produce a warm and fuzzy feeling inside, and utterly incapable of shifting the balance of power. Greens seem incapable of submitting to collective rules and discipline – they resent structure. And, internally, that lack of structure means that power relations inside the party mirror rather than challenge those outside. It is rumoured that this is the root cause for the mediation proposed last summer. Most extraordinary of all, a Green councillor who sought to enrol the help of the Labour leader in an attempt to oust her own Group Convenor is hailed in some Green corners as a hero. There is at the heart of all this, as I and others have written before, a basic culture of Thatcherite individualism: a reluctance to understand that politics is, at its heart, a collective enterprise.
Over the weekend, as a new Labour Party member rediscovering the joys of doorknocking, I spent some time on the doorstep in one of the Green Party’s wards, Preston Park. Time and time again, even here in what had been a Green stronghold, I found a hostility to the Green administration that was almost visceral. A little more than twelve hours earlier, Caroline Lucas had launched her re-election campaign; the city was due to be invaded by a small army of Young Greens to argue the case for the council tax increase. And the combination of those two events revealed a fundamental truth about the Green Party’s profile. Caroline Lucas remains one of Britain’s most respected voices on the left – outside Brighton and Hove. But in the only city in Britain where the Green Party has wielded power, voters appear desperate to get rid of it. A BBC opinion poll recently suggested the Greens would come third in the next local elections. So far, Caroline Lucas’ campaign has begun increasingly to look like one founded on distancing itself as far as possible from the Green Council – and gives every sign of being funded and staffed from outside the city. A recent leaflet posted to every household in the city barely mentions the council, or the Green Party. I did wonder whether this was the first time in which a Parliamentary candidate who had recently led her political party and remained a revered member of it sought so strenuously to avoid referring to that party on her election literature.
And yet the vote for Brighton Pavilion’s next MP cannot be divorced from the record of the Green Party in office in Kings House. Anyone can say fine things in opposition – especially as an opposition of one. But the failures I have listed above are endemic in the political method of the Green Party; most of all in its inability to understand the realities and responsibilities of speaking truth to power. The Green Party likes to accuse Labour of “neoliberalism” – but fails to recognise the irony that many Labour councils, unhindered by the Greens’ post-Thatcherite political methods, have, even at a time of austerity, and even while forced to make cuts every bit as agonising as those in Brighton and Hove, made real progress where they can in improving the lives of their citizens. And that includes what Greens regard as their flagship policies like the living wage. There is nothing that Brighton and Hove Greens can claim to have achieved that other authorities have not done elsewhere.
And Greens continue to talk of challenging austerity, in the city and beyond; they even appear to suggest that a Council Tax referendum could galvanise opposition to neoliberal thinking. But, quite simply, that pass has been sold. It’s too late. To lead a campaign against what remains the default thinking of the political establishment, you need to be credible and command respect; the Brighton and Hove Green Party isn’t and doesn’t. The time for building coalitions with those on the front line has passed, and, as the 20mph debacle has shown, the cruel fact is that the involvement of the Green Party can too easily turn potentially popular issues toxic. And it cannot be argued strongly enough – the reasons for that failure lie not just in political failures peculiar to Brighton, but in the way in which the Green Party seeks to conduct its politics.
I have said many times: to be green you have to be red, and to be red you have to be green. Issues of climate change, environmental justice, poverty, affluence and for whose benefit economic activity is carried on remain completely interwoven. And those are questions of political method as well as of political ends. It is the political method of the Green Party that has been found so desperately wanting in Brighton and Hove; and that is why, as a city, it sits so solidly behind the motion of No Confidence that will be presented to the Council on 30 January.
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Medium of Death wrote:Good on him for being against it. Better than Labour at any rate. Although that's not saying much.
That graph doesn't seem quite right. Population of the UK doesn't seem to add up, well at least in my mind...
I think the actual figures for turn out will be somewhere between 20 & 30% which is shocking.
Da Boss wrote:Complain about the EU but then don't bother to vote to change it, showing your political system that it can continue to keep about it's business.
This. Unless 70% of the population want to cede all right to complain (yeah right) then the turnout figures are appalling. Even if you choose to abstain/spoil your ballot, at least make an effort. Political apathy does no one any good.
Slow decline since the 40's to the 90's and then a sudden drop from then on. I wonder if the next general election will show that slow rise or whether it'll drop down again.
Kilkrazy wrote: 35% turnout in the south-east and east areas of the UK.
Mind you, electoral participation in general elections has been poor for years.
It all shows the disillusionment of the public with "politics as usual".
Which should, in an ideal world, make the parties a little more proactive seeking votes and supports, maybe by having some relevant policies?
Instead, they just sit in the status quo thinking that because people show so little interest, they clearly don't care and so they keep on with the same bland stuff... Which then leads to politics becoming 'boring' and triggs the cycle for the next generation.
Mr. Burning wrote:
Would the greens ever actually do this though? if in power? No, no they would not..
How do you know they wouldn't? Caroline Lucas is undoubtedly one of the hardest working MPs in the House of Commons, just as she was one of the hardest working MEPs that the UK had (an far cry from UKIP there). There are things you can criticise about her but dedication is not one of them.
As I said their vision could be spouted by any of the other main parties
But this vision isn't spouted by any other party, they seek austerity and neoliberalism, the Greens are the only alternative if you don't buy in to a vision which will just cause increasingly inequality.
Ketara wrote:
Sounds good. To steal a line, 'where's the money?'. Because all those things cost vast amounts of it. And last time I checked, we were running an operational deficit. So either you're going to have to cut waaaaay more stuff to pay for it, or you're just going to rack up our national deficit to absolutely insane levels.
The Green Party's method is to select a third option:- raise more taxes to pay for your policies.
Here's a more general analysis of the Green Party in Brighton:-
If they were in charge nationally they could borrow, which ( I think, macroeconomics isn't really something I can claim to be an expert on ) is kind of the point of Keynesian theory, to use government cash during recession to keep the economy fluid during a time of decreased demand. As a council the only option is to raise tax or make cuts.
That is an interesting blog post ( although you can very much see the authors bias ), they are a young party and do lack the infrastructure of someone like labour. Now that isn't particularly comforting if it is your rubbish not being collected, but it is something that will plague all young parties, I have lost count of the number of UKIP councillors who have been forced to 'step down', each time causing a vastly expensive re-election. Not to invalidate that blogger's anecdote, but simply to add my own, I have a Green local councillor and not once in the 4 years he has been in office have we had a missed rubbish collection.
Also, that map does seem to show how well compulsory voting works for Belgium, I personally wouldn't mind if it were made compulsory here, certainly for general election if not local and european ones.
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Well, despite having cumpolsory voting, belgium's political system is a shambles, so I'm not sure forcing people is the way forward. Worth a try though.
If they were in charge nationally they could borrow, which ( I think, macroeconomics isn't really something I can claim to be an expert on ) is kind of the point of Keynesian theory, to use government cash during recession to keep the economy fluid during a time of decreased demand. As a council the only option is to raise tax or make cuts.
Keynesian theory has nothing to do with it. Recession has nothing to do with it. Examine about what was posted before. The original post was about the Green Party values, which presumably would true to their intended manifesto for the next general election, right? Now your response was a list of things that you said/thought the Green Party would enact.
Spoiler:
dæl wrote:Firstly a Keynesian program of government investment, such as housebuilding programs and investment in R&D in renewable energies to make the UK the world leader in green tech. Welfare becoming more universal rather than implementing stricter and stricter means tests, expensive and useless private work programmes and sanctions.
Renationalisation of the train service and post office. Opposition to TTIP which could potentially force through more privatisation of the NHS.
No contracts for companies like Cuadrilla to frack, heavy investment in green tech, subsidies for house builds to include solar, wind or geothermal in the build.
Now frankly, I don't know if those are the Green Party's intended policies, but running off of the things you've said, the recession is actually kind of irrelevant. Because we're not actually in a recession right now. Growth is mediocre and unimpressive, but the economy is just about holding together. Therefore you're not borrowing money to stimulate the economy during a recession, and frankly, even if we were in recession, those policies are not the sort of policies which do stimulate growth.
For example, renationalising the railway service is one of the things you listed. Now that policy is well and good, and driven by a desire to stop private industry from deriving profits at the cost of a captive audience. Logically, the reason you would want to take it over is so that you can get the railways to charge their running costs and nothing more. But that policy would be fraught with risk. Firstly, you'd need to raise the necessary cash to pay a fair price to buy it back. If you don't, you'll scare private investors into withdrawing all of their cash out of anything the Government so much as looks sideways at, for fear you'll nationalise other industries at below market rates. But that cash has to come from somewhere, and if you plan on delivering rail services at cost (the whole point of nationalisation), you won't be making it up through charging for tickets.
So where does that money come from? This project is also extremely unlikely to stimulate growth, in fact, if anything it would do the opposite as you'll make private investors worry. Ergo, this actually has nothing to do with stimulating growth, and everything to do with political policy. And that holds true for most of what you posted.
Opening up welfare? That doesn't stimulate the economy particularly much, but does cost a big chunk of moolah. Nationalising the post office? Same as the railways. Investing in green tech? The solar panels industry which was subsidised up until has more or less all gone to Chinese companies, and renewables are never going to be a large enough part of the energy market to either provide all the power, or stimulate growth directly or indirectly.
These are all policies, which whilst admirable, need funds and have little in the way of payback to the public purse. Which means either cuts, taxes, or debt. Or a mix of the three.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/26 19:13:19
Kilkrazy wrote: 35% turnout in the south-east and east areas of the UK.
Mind you, electoral participation in general elections has been poor for years.
It all shows the disillusionment of the public with "politics as usual".
Which should, in an ideal world, make the parties a little more proactive seeking votes and supports, maybe by having some relevant policies?
Instead, they just sit in the status quo thinking that because people show so little interest, they clearly don't care and so they keep on with the same bland stuff... Which then leads to politics becoming 'boring' and triggs the cycle for the next generation.
It doesn't matter to the parties if the turnout is low. As the old saw has it, "Voting is useless, the government always gets elected". If only the motivated party workers voted elections would be like the old rotten boroughs.
The problem with UK politics at the moment is that we have had 40 years of unrelieved right wing policies, which have basically failed to create jobs, investment and widespread prosperity, but for some reason the electorate wants more of them. That is why the Labour Party lurched to the right, and why the Liberals have done so badly by being more left wing. (Also they blew it on university fees and various things like that.)
RE: Green funding, I'm sure cutting Nuclear Weapons from the budget would make a fairly good start.
Halting plans for a massive railway line for the "elite" would be another good one.
Stimulating growth? Define what you mean by growth? Unsustainable growth like that which was seen before the recession in the Housing market/Banking Sector or what?
Medium of Death wrote: RE: Green funding, I'm sure cutting Nuclear Weapons from the budget would make a fairly good start.
Halting plans for a massive railway line for the "elite" would be another good one.
Stimulating growth? Define what you mean by growth? Unsustainable growth like that which was seen before the recession in the Housing market/Banking Sector or what?
Are these comments addressed to me? Because the two about funding seem to be, but I'm not sure about the bottom one.
Medium of Death wrote:Yes, due to you emphasising the potential impact upon growth through renationalisation.
Gotcha.
Medium of Death wrote:RE: Green funding, I'm sure cutting Nuclear Weapons from the budget would make a fairly good start.
I agree. After all, having another country guarantee your security in perpetuity in exchange for giving up your nuclear weapons always works out. Right?
Halting plans for a massive railway line for the "elite" would be another good one.
No comment on that one. That whole project has been so marred by manipulated figures by both sides that I'm educated enough to know I have no real idea of the situation.
Stimulating growth? Define what you mean by growth? Unsustainable growth like that which was seen before the recession in the Housing market/Banking Sector or what?
What I would mean by growth would be the textbook definiton. Not sure where you're going with that.
Economic Growth: An increase in the amount of goods and services produced per head of the population over a period of time.
Nationalising the railways wouldn't deliver growth of any variety, sustainable or unsustainable.
Keynesian theory has nothing to do with it. Recession has nothing to do with it. Examine about what was posted before. The original post was about the Green Party values, which presumably would true to their intended manifesto for the next general election, right? Now your response was a list of things that you said/thought the Green Party would enact.
Spoiler:
dæl wrote:Firstly a Keynesian program of government investment, such as housebuilding programs and investment in R&D in renewable energies to make the UK the world leader in green tech. Welfare becoming more universal rather than implementing stricter and stricter means tests, expensive and useless private work programmes and sanctions.
Renationalisation of the train service and post office. Opposition to TTIP which could potentially force through more privatisation of the NHS.
No contracts for companies like Cuadrilla to frack, heavy investment in green tech, subsidies for house builds to include solar, wind or geothermal in the build.
Now frankly, I don't know if those are the Green Party's intended policies, but running off of the things you've said, the recession is actually kind of irrelevant. Because we're not actually in a recession right now. Growth is mediocre and unimpressive, but the economy is just about holding together. Therefore you're not borrowing money to stimulate the economy during a recession, and frankly, even if we were in recession, those policies are not the sort of policies which do stimulate growth.
I split those three statements on purpose, they cover separate issues. The first line is about opposing austerity, which we only have because of the recession, so the recession is very much relevant. Also, apart from the London property bubble we would have even less growth, potentially negative. The economy is very much in need of stimulus right now, just as it is in need of a vast house building program.
For example, renationalising the railway service is one of the things you listed. Now that policy is well and good, and driven by a desire to stop private industry from deriving profits at the cost of a captive audience. Logically, the reason you would want to take it over is so that you can get the railways to charge their running costs and nothing more. But that policy would be fraught with risk. Firstly, you'd need to raise the necessary cash to pay a fair price to buy it back. If you don't, you'll scare private investors into withdrawing all of their cash out of anything the Government so much as looks sideways at, for fear you'll nationalise other industries at below market rates. But that cash has to come from somewhere, and if you plan on delivering rail services at cost (the whole point of nationalisation), you won't be making it up through charging for tickets.
This would not be done to stimulate growth, this would be done to provide a cheap and effective public transport system, I don't know if you use the trains much but they are gloriously expensive, while the companies running them make "excessive" profits.
Opening up welfare? That doesn't stimulate the economy particularly much, but does cost a big chunk of moolah.
We would certainly see a decline in the food bank industry, although I would need to be convinced that this is a bad thing.
Investing in green tech? The solar panels industry which was subsidised up until has more or less all gone to Chinese companies, and renewables are never going to be a large enough part of the energy market to either provide all the power, or stimulate growth directly or indirectly.
So forget solar, look at Thorium, or improved geothermal, or tide (we are an island after all), or wind. The point being that we could, with investment, be the people that other countries come cap in hand to in a decade or two. Renewables very much are going to be a large part of the energy market eventually, finite resources run out and while they do they increase in cost exponentially.
These are all policies, which whilst admirable, need funds and have little in the way of payback to the public purse. Which means either cuts, taxes, or debt. Or a mix of the three.
The problem with these policies is not that you would not get a return, its more that the return will take longer than an election cycle to arrive, probably several. But that is more a problem with democracy and how it is focused on short term solutions, what we need is another post war consensus as we had in '45.
I guess my main response would be that growth in that particular sector should not be necessary or even warranted as transport should solely be public infrastructure and not private enterprise. I don't really see it having a massive effect on businesses beyond those that operate within that sector currently.
"educated enough to know I have no real idea of the situation". Really? One as particularly intelligent as yourself? I thought it particularly obvious that a very expensive railway line that is intended to service London and reduce commute times is not beneficial for the country. Technology should be being adopted to better facilitate communication in place of travel. Saving time (an hour, perhaps 2) for a minority of people compared to the potential rolling stock upgrade across the country seems like a complete non-starter to me.
Surely Nuclear weapons aren't any form of defense beyond an "end of days" scenario? In the event of any Nuclear exchange we'd be fethed regardless. You don't need to have Nuclear weapons to be able to prevent them from being used on yourself.
@dael
But none of that answers the crux of the issue, and my first point. Namely, where does the money for all these policies come from? We are running an operational deficit. I'd like us to have a space program and half a dozen other things as a nation, but that doesn't mean that the funds are there.
So, I repeat, if the Green Party wanted to follow through with any of this sort of thing, they would have to cut other services, raise taxes, or borrow vast sums of money. Like UKIP, and the Lib Dems up until now, it's all very well and good to promise pie, but if the pie is in the sky and there's no means to reach it, people aren't likely to take you very seriously.
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A mixture of progressive taxes (wealth, 2nd property etc.), some debt, some cuts to what would be termed 'crony capitalist' schemes, and proper tax collection from multinationals. Also, bear in mind that a considerable chunk of the welfare budget goes to those in work, a liveable wage would reduce billions, if not tens of billions, from the budget, leaving it to be reapplied more effectively elsewhere.
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Medium of Death wrote: I guess my main response would be that growth in that particular sector should not be necessary or even warranted as transport should solely be public infrastructure and not private enterprise. I don't really see it having a massive effect on businesses beyond those that operate within that sector currently.
I actually agree with you wholeheartedly on that score. I don't think public utilities and transport should be under private ownership.
When they sold off the railways initially, they were barely functioning due to constant strikes, insane operating costs, and terrible inefficiencies. So I can see the logic behind the action of the time, and would have agreed with it back then. Since then though, the East Coast Mainline operated at a profit under government control, which would appear to indicate that the railways can work under state control, if organised properly.
"educated enough to know I have no real idea of the situation". Really? One as particularly intelligent as yourself?
Not sure if being flattered or insulted.
I thought it particularly obvious that a very expensive railway line that is intended to service London and reduce commute times is not beneficial for the country. Technology should be being adopted to better facilitate communication in place of travel. Saving time (an hour, perhaps 2) for a minority of people compared to the potential rolling stock upgrade across the country seems like a complete non-starter to me.
The problem there is the very nature of our service based economy. With our physical industry dead in the water, London makes the money, and if one works with the assumption that we want to continue to inspire growth, the easiest way to do it is to make it easier for London to make money. It's certainly easier than trying to kickstart non-productive industry in the Midlands again, and is a way of stimulating a housing bubble outside of London. It really depends on your opinion of economic priorities, and your personal vision of the future of the economy of this country. I can see the merit of both positions, and as such, refrain from taking sides.
Surely Nuclear weapons aren't any form of defense beyond an "end of days" scenario? In the event of any Nuclear exchange we'd be fethed regardless. You don't need to have Nuclear weapons to be able to prevent them from being used on yourself.
The wonderful thing about nuclear weapons is their deterrent to physical invaders and conventional warfare. North Korea's proved what having them can do to help keep you secure, and Ukraine's proved what lacking them can do. On the whole, I want my country to be sustained for as along as possible without undue outside military interference, and see them as one of the best logical guarantees of that. We're under no massive threat now, but in fifty years? Who knows? Borders and Governments have a habit of changing, historically speaking. Better we have and don't need, rather than vice versa.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/26 20:30:11