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So as we nid players know our ranking in competitive play is a little on the low side not a days. Gun lines being the flavor of this edition, and the rewriting of fleet has rendered our hordes close to useless at times. So as we seek leeks of 7th edition rules come out what do you feel will work to our advantage? Do you think the powers at GW will give the nids some love and give us accuses to some of the new psyker powers? Or maybe we will see a rewrite of some of the special rules that work against us? Or do you think because of unbound lists Nids are just done for until we get either a rewrite or accuses to better armor and inv saves? Discuss...

 DarkWind wrote:
So as we nid players know our ranking in competitive play is a little on the low side not a days. Gun lines being the flavor of this edition, and the rewriting of fleet has rendered our hordes close to useless at times. So as we seek leeks of 7th edition rules come out what do you feel will work to our advantage? Do you think the powers at GW will give the nids some love and give us accuses to some of the new psyker powers? Or maybe we will see a rewrite of some of the special rules that work against us? Or do you think because of unbound lists Nids are just done for until we get either a rewrite or accuses to better armor and inv saves? Discuss...

Well, all in all, I think we'll get a mild boost. It looks like Nids will be top notch Psychers with many builds, and if Troops can be taken as "objective secured" then one of the few advantages we have (Lots of Troops) will be magnified. If CC becomes a practical choice, that is automaticly a boost for Nids.

It also sounds like FMCs will get a mild boost, and that is very good news for us...

Only time will tell though...hopefully I can grab a book on Friday.

 DarkWind wrote:
So as we nid players know our ranking in competitive play is a little on the low side not a days. Gun lines being the flavor of this edition, and the rewriting of fleet has rendered our hordes close to useless at times. So as we seek leeks of 7th edition rules come out what do you feel will work to our advantage? Do you think the powers at GW will give the nids some love and give us accuses to some of the new psyker powers? Or maybe we will see a rewrite of some of the special rules that work against us? Or do you think because of unbound lists Nids are just done for until we get either a rewrite or accuses to better armor and inv saves? Discuss...

With the rumored changes to FMC, scoring, and just the psychic phase dynamics, I'd say things should be looking pretty rosy for the Nids.... who seem to be the first 7th ed codex, IMO.

With the super tough Nid MCs getting to score and buffs for assault compared to gunlones I think Tyranids will be stronger in 7th edition.

Unbound Nid lists with lots of FMCs will be something to recon with.

 sing your life wrote:
With the super tough Nid MCs getting to score and buffs for assault compared to gunlones I think Tyranids will be stronger in 7th edition.

I wouldn't call TMCs supertough in a world with 2++ rerollable Daemon Princes, FNP riptides, and fortuned Wraithknights.

Hopefully. All of what's listed hear is evidence enough, but not being able to take the new powers could be a hit to us. If they release and FAQ/Errata of SiTW to modify it, perhaps we might be more of a psyker shutdown army. I'm optimistic, but will wait to see what is going to happen.

 Carnikang wrote:
Hopefully. All of what's listed hear is evidence enough, but not being able to take the new powers could be a hit to us. If they release and FAQ/Errata of SiTW to modify it, perhaps we might be more of a psyker shutdown army. I'm optimistic, but will wait to see what is going to happen.

I will be thrilled if Nids can serious nerf the psyker star lists. Few things could make me happier.

I really don't get why Tyranids, as one of the three most highly psychic armies in the game, only have access to one table.

The Eldar have two full tables and access to the BRB. Chaos has three tables and access to the BRB. Tyranids get one table.

Everyone else gets lots of tables to roll on.

Sure, take away the BRB tables, but at least give us multiple tables of our own.

 Kain wrote:
I really don't get why Tyranids, as one of the three most highly psychic armies in the game, only have access to one table.

The Eldar have two full tables and access to the BRB. Chaos has three tables and access to the BRB. Tyranids get one table.

Everyone else gets lots of tables to roll on.

Sure, take away the BRB tables, but at least give us multiple tables of our own.

That would be amazing. Give us Hive Fleet specific tables. Behemoth would have lots of buffs, Leviathan would be more debuffs and illusions of sorts, while Kraken could be terror tactics and shock and awe. More variety for the most variable and versatile army in the fluff.

Probably because they use the Hive Mind for power instead of the Warp. Wouldn't be a bad thing with multiple tables that's a good idea.

pm713 wrote:
Probably because they use the Hive Mind for power instead of the Warp. Wouldn't be a bad thing with multiple tables that's a good idea.

The only argument I would have against that is Biomancy makes sense for Tyranids to have. It's the manipulation of living tissue and reformation of genetics to produce the needed ability/characteristic when needed.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I really don't get why Tyranids, as one of the three most highly psychic armies in the game, only have access to one table.

The Eldar have two full tables and access to the BRB. Chaos has three tables and access to the BRB. Tyranids get one table.

Everyone else gets lots of tables to roll on.

Sure, take away the BRB tables, but at least give us multiple tables of our own.

That would be amazing. Give us Hive Fleet specific tables. Behemoth would have lots of buffs, Leviathan would be more debuffs and illusions of sorts, while Kraken could be terror tactics and shock and awe. More variety for the most variable and versatile army in the fluff.

One or two tables for all hive fleets and a hive fleet specific table then? I could think up some stuff.

I'm very supportive of chapter tactics like things and supplements for every faction.

Onslaught also baffles me. I'd like it more if it also allowed assault after running, but GW seems adamant that nothing may assault after running/deepstriking/outflanking/infiltrating/exiting a non-assault transport/doing the laundry.

 Carnikang wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Probably because they use the Hive Mind for power instead of the Warp. Wouldn't be a bad thing with multiple tables that's a good idea.

The only argument I would have against that is Biomancy makes sense for Tyranids to have. It's the manipulation of living tissue and reformation of genetics to produce the needed ability/characteristic when needed.

I forgot about Biomancy that's true as well.

Orks could also do with their own distinct tables (and perhaps some modified rules) since they draw on the WAAAGH! and the power of Gork and Mork.

More uniqueness for each army is always a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Probably because they use the Hive Mind for power instead of the Warp. Wouldn't be a bad thing with multiple tables that's a good idea.

The only argument I would have against that is Biomancy makes sense for Tyranids to have. It's the manipulation of living tissue and reformation of genetics to produce the needed ability/characteristic when needed.

I forgot about Biomancy that's true as well.

Telekinesis and Telepathy are also very much stock psychic abilities. I'd find it hard to believe that a Zoanthrope can't lift things with it's mind...especially when it's lifting itself up with it's mind.

 Kain wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I really don't get why Tyranids, as one of the three most highly psychic armies in the game, only have access to one table.

The Eldar have two full tables and access to the BRB. Chaos has three tables and access to the BRB. Tyranids get one table.

Everyone else gets lots of tables to roll on.

Sure, take away the BRB tables, but at least give us multiple tables of our own.

That would be amazing. Give us Hive Fleet specific tables. Behemoth would have lots of buffs, Leviathan would be more debuffs and illusions of sorts, while Kraken could be terror tactics and shock and awe. More variety for the most variable and versatile army in the fluff.

One or two tables for all hive fleets and a hive fleet specific table then? I could think up some stuff.

I'm very supportive of chapter tactics like things and supplements for every faction.

Onslaught also baffles me. I'd like it more if it also allowed assault after running, but GW seems adamant that nothing may assault after running/deepstriking/outflanking/infiltrating/exiting a non-assault transport/doing the laundry.

Which makes no since at all. Why create armies who excel in assaulting only to make it near imposable for that army to assault. It would be like inverting the BS table and expecting any armies with high BS ability to remain a shooting army.

 Kain wrote:

One or two tables for all hive fleets and a hive fleet specific table then? I could think up some stuff.

I'm very supportive of chapter tactics like things and supplements for every faction.

Onslaught also baffles me. I'd like it more if it also allowed assault after running, but GW seems adamant that nothing may assault after running/deepstriking/outflanking/infiltrating/exiting a non-assault transport/doing the laundry.

I may do some Chart making as well at some point, just to see how it goes.
I was not a fan of the change in Assaults, it really broke Genestealers in my mind.

Also GW nerfed took away our best death star (Swarmstar), nerfed the Swarmlord into the dirt (not just the loss of BRB tables, but then taking a price bump and losing forcing rerolls to invulnerables), keeps our genestealers at MEQ prices when Daemonettes are better and cheaper, increased the price of the biomorphs needed to make hormagaunts more than a nuisance in assault, and removed the last reliable 2+ save on anything that's not a Tyrannofex in the army, thus greatly nerfing Walkrants. Oh and then they nerfed scything talons and boneswords because feth us.

It's like GW doesn't want us to be in assault with any of the iconic meleenids.

 Kain wrote:
Also GW nerfed took away our best death star (Swarmstar), nerfed the Swarmlord into the dirt (not just the loss of BRB tables, but then taking a price bump and losing forcing rerolls to invulnerables), keeps our genestealers at MEQ prices when Daemonettes are better and cheaper, increased the price of the biomorphs needed to make hormagaunts more than a nuisance in assault, and removed the last reliable 2+ save on anything that's not a Tyrannofex in the army, thus greatly nerfing Walkrants. Oh and then they nerfed scything talons and boneswords because feth us.

It's like GW doesn't want us to be in assault with any of the iconic meleenids.

Because this is a shooting game, didn't you hear? Not like you can win a gunfight with a sword right?

At any rate, I do hope there are some assault changes, and our FAQ does adjust some things.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Also GW nerfed took away our best death star (Swarmstar), nerfed the Swarmlord into the dirt (not just the loss of BRB tables, but then taking a price bump and losing forcing rerolls to invulnerables), keeps our genestealers at MEQ prices when Daemonettes are better and cheaper, increased the price of the biomorphs needed to make hormagaunts more than a nuisance in assault, and removed the last reliable 2+ save on anything that's not a Tyrannofex in the army, thus greatly nerfing Walkrants. Oh and then they nerfed scything talons and boneswords because feth us.

It's like GW doesn't want us to be in assault with any of the iconic meleenids.

Because this is a shooting game, didn't you hear? Not like you can win a gunfight with a sword right?

At any rate, I do hope there are some assault changes, and our FAQ does adjust some things.

Rest in piece T7 2+ save carnifexes.

You will be missed.

I think the fact that all BS4 armies will get to overwatch at 5+ instead of 6+ will hurt your ability to get into an assault with your troops. But then again follow up/sweeping charges will help you so those might even out.

 westiebestie wrote:
I think the fact that all BS4 armies will get to overwatch at 5+ instead of 6+ will hurt your ability to get into an assault with your troops. But then again follow up/sweeping charges will help you so those might even out.

The problem is that Tyranid units as a rule have poor resiliency per point (and poor absolute resiliency) worsened by having their ideal range be within the rapid fire range of most armies. I mean, compare genestealers to daemonettes who do just about everything the former does for substantially less. Or melee shrikes or raveners to Necron wraiths who are pretty much flat out better for a reasonable price tag.

For an army that's supposed to be all about massive numbers of models working in concert with relatively few great powerful monstrosities, we certainly don't seem to have anything that is especially great and powerful and only have a few really massable units (yes the Tyranids can have more MCs than any other army, and then you see their price tag and wonder why the hell a kitted out melee carnifex has to pay so much when a Dreadknight can do the job better for a similar pricetag). And even then, the AM can field far more models than the Tyranids barring formations (and even with formations Conscripts are cheaper than Termagants GDI) so we're not exactly the hordiest horde that ever horded.

But I'll hold my luck out for more dataslates, perhaps more warzones, some supplements and Forgeworld goodies until a new codex can arrive.

 Kain wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
I think the fact that all BS4 armies will get to overwatch at 5+ instead of 6+ will hurt your ability to get into an assault with your troops. But then again follow up/sweeping charges will help you so those might even out.

The problem is that Tyranid units as a rule have poor resiliency per point (and poor absolute resiliency) worsened by having their ideal range be within the rapid fire range of most armies. I mean, compare genestealers to daemonettes who do just about everything the former does for substantially less. Or melee shrikes or raveners to Necron wraiths who are pretty much flat out better for a reasonable price tag.

For an army that's supposed to be all about massive numbers of models working in concert with relatively few great powerful monstrosities, we certainly don't seem to have anything that is especially great and powerful and only have a few really massable units (yes the Tyranids can have more MCs than any other army, and then you see their price tag and wonder why the hell a kitted out melee carnifex has to pay so much when a Dreadknight can do the job better for a similar pricetag). And even then, the AM can field far more models than the Tyranids barring formations (and even with formations Conscripts are cheaper than Termagants GDI) so we're not exactly the hordiest horde that ever horded.

But I'll hold my luck out for more dataslates, perhaps more warzones, some supplements and Forgeworld goodies until a new codex can arrive.

Agree with your analysis of nids, except I find MCs to be far better than dreadnoughts. Dreads can die from one shot which MCs cannot. And in a straight fight, the Nid MCs seem to kill my Dreads way easier than the opposite. My 2-3 attacks just can't kill you in less than 2 turns.

The same goes for wraithknights and wraithlords, which I find way better than AV walkers.

This is all based on 6th, we'll see if 7th changes any of that. Needing 7+ to destroy a walker in one shot for non AP1-2 weapons will help, but you will still have AP2 in close combat on your MCs so in a 1vs1 the MCs will still win.

 westiebestie wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
I think the fact that all BS4 armies will get to overwatch at 5+ instead of 6+ will hurt your ability to get into an assault with your troops. But then again follow up/sweeping charges will help you so those might even out.

The problem is that Tyranid units as a rule have poor resiliency per point (and poor absolute resiliency) worsened by having their ideal range be within the rapid fire range of most armies. I mean, compare genestealers to daemonettes who do just about everything the former does for substantially less. Or melee shrikes or raveners to Necron wraiths who are pretty much flat out better for a reasonable price tag.

For an army that's supposed to be all about massive numbers of models working in concert with relatively few great powerful monstrosities, we certainly don't seem to have anything that is especially great and powerful and only have a few really massable units (yes the Tyranids can have more MCs than any other army, and then you see their price tag and wonder why the hell a kitted out melee carnifex has to pay so much when a Dreadknight can do the job better for a similar pricetag). And even then, the AM can field far more models than the Tyranids barring formations (and even with formations Conscripts are cheaper than Termagants GDI) so we're not exactly the hordiest horde that ever horded.

But I'll hold my luck out for more dataslates, perhaps more warzones, some supplements and Forgeworld goodies until a new codex can arrive.

Agree with your analysis of nids, except I find MCs to be far better than dreadnoughts. Dreads can die from one shot which MCs cannot. And in a straight fight, the Nid MCs seem to kill my Dreads way easier than the opposite. My 2-3 attacks just can't kill you in less than 2 turns.

The same goes for wraithknights and wraithlords, which I find way better than AV walkers.

This is all based on 6th, we'll see if 7th changes any of that. Needing 7+ to destroy a walker in one shot for non AP1-2 weapons will help, but you will still have AP2 in close combat on your MCs so in a 1vs1 the MCs will still win.

Dreads are terrible, never disputed that.

 DarkWind wrote:
Do you think the powers at GW will give the nids some love and give us accuses to some of the new psyker powers?

Well you're still boned on the allies chart...

 westiebestie wrote:
This is all based on 6th, we'll see if 7th changes any of that. Needing 7+ to destroy a walker in one shot for non AP1-2 weapons will help, but you will still have AP2 in close combat on your MCs so in a 1vs1 the MCs will still win.

Really?

Anything but a Carnifex has to Smash. With Smash changing to a single attack (that still has to hit) it looks like Dreads will spank the everliving crap out of TMCs. Even if you get a charge bonus it's 2 attacks, because of the *AWESOME* WS chart 1 hits on average. We'll pretend it even pens on average. Now there's a 1/6 chance for it to kill the Dread. Yeah - totes vehicle killers now.

Those are the new smash rules?

Ouch.

Looks like only Carnifexes, Doomfist Dreadknights, and Wraithknights are going to be reliably cracking vehicles now.

But my poor Trygons...

I was not aware of the alleged changes to Smash. That sounds a lot worse for MCs with lower S such as Tyrants and Daemon princes then. What's your source on this change?

 westiebestie wrote:
I was not aware of the changes to Smash. That sounds a lot worse for MCs with lower S such as Tyrants and Daemon princes then.

It means Blood Angles Death Company dreadnoughts have almost nothing to fear once they can get into assault with a Tyranid army.

I know the old Smash rules could be a tad over the top, but this nerf sounds way too punitive and swings the balance way too hard to the Melee Walker camp if nothing is given to MCs to make up for the loss.

The changes to smash, the vector strikes being only 1 hit against ground targets, and allegedly needing to glide for a turn before charging (which I don't buy)......where are these rumors coming from?