Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The way I'm reading the Unbound Rules and the Malefic Daemonology rules, I think I can do this just for the hilarity of it.

Can anyone see an issue with this?

1850 point list... 19 ML3 Heralds of Tzeentch... give one of them the Portaglyph thing.

Each Herald chooses only from Malefic Daemonology, so 62% of them, or roughly 11, have the ability to summon more Heralds. ALL of them have the ability to summon Pink Horrors.

So...

Turn 1. Use your D6 + 57 Warp Charges to first summon some Pink Horrors and then start summoning Heralds of Tzeentch, using the Pink Horrors as sacrifices. Give the new Heralds ML2 for 25 points. Have the Heralds who don't know the #4 power summon more Pink Horrors.

Turn 2. Depending on how your opponent reacts, either do this again to grow your force more, or start popping the Heralds who can summon Greater Daemons of whichever variety you like.

My friends and I tried this out last night as a gag and at the end of turn 1 I had gone from 19 Heralds to 29 Heralds and 21 Pink Horrors for a total of 80 Mastery Levels worth of Warp Dice. At the end of Turn 2, I was sitting with 6 Bloodthirsters and even more Heralds and Pink Horrors.

If this works, I'm officially dubbing this either "Tzeentchian Clown Car" or "Change you can Believe in!".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When we tried this last night, using random rolls and versus an opponent with very little ability to Deny the Witch (keep in mind these are all Conjurations, so no buffs), I was able to generate an extra 2,080 points worth of models in two turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AND you should first have the ones who know it use Cursed Earth 3 times to give you a +3 to your Invuln and make sure the summoned models don't scatter.

You end up with an army of 2+ invuln, self spawning daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AND you have such a variety of models you can summon, you should be able to counteract most other builds.

The new rules are generally pretty good..
...but they really didn't think this part through very well.

 grendel083 wrote:
The new rules are generally pretty good..
...but they really didn't think this part through very well.

on the contrary, GW thought this out, it means more dollars for them

but since unbound requires your opponents permission i would say let me see what your fielding first and if it something like that id refuse

Everything requires explicit consent to use, everything.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Everything requires explicit consent to use, everything.

I have no idea why people keep touting "You need your opponents permission" line. It's always been the case, always. It's the case for every game ever been played voluntarily. Roman gladiators didn't get to give consent but that wasn't voluntary.

 Idolator wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Everything requires explicit consent to use, everything.

I have no idea why people keep touting "You need your opponents permission" line. It's always been the case, always. It's the case for every game ever been played voluntarily. Roman gladiators didn't get to give consent but that wasn't voluntary.

Read any of the threads about the legality of Forgeworld units and if you need your opponent's consent to use them and you'll see why.

 Kriswall wrote:

"Change you can Believe in!".

"Obamastar"

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

"Change you can Believe in!".

"Obamastar"

Bwahahaha that's amazing!

That being said, this is awesomely ridiculous. I'd love to play against this just to watch the craziness.

I thought tzeench herals HAD to take at least one power in tzeench lore and thus would not auto get the primaris from either.


So you would have 19 rolls on the tzeench chart, then 38 rolls on malefic daemonology.


You should still get plenty of what you want, but its alot of bookkeeping to worry about.

Scorched Earth doesn't stack; 7th was changed to explicitely state that the same psychic power cannot stack with itself.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Everything requires explicit consent to use, everything.

I have no idea why people keep touting "You need your opponents permission" line. It's always been the case, always. It's the case for every game ever been played voluntarily. Roman gladiators didn't get to give consent but that wasn't voluntary.

Read any of the threads about the legality of Forgeworld units and if you need your opponent's consent to use them and you'll see why.

Maybe I was unclear. Every game, voluntarily played, requires permission from the opponent in order to play, at all.

Basketball, baseball, Wanhammer, Jacks, tic-tac-toe, etc. etc. etc.

"Hey I want to use Forge World units." "I won't play you then."

"I want to bring an unbound list." I won't play you, then."

"I want to bring the 'flying circus' Daemon list." "I won't play you"

"I want to bring three Helldrakes." "I won't play you, then"

"I want to play Warhammer 40k." "I won't play you then".

Permission from an opponent is required in every aspect of the game, including playing the game at all. It always has, always will.

There is no default setting here. A person could just as easily deny the use of "Battle Forged" as they could the use of "Unbound".

And again, read any of the threads about Forgeworld legality.

How are these people remember which model has which powers?

I struggle to book keep with Ahriman, Fateweaver, 3 units of TS, a level 3 sorcerer and a unit of horrors.

Thats the glory of it, they really dont have to remember.

Oh you rolled 11 possessions, max 11 extra greater daemons.

Oh 15 sacrifices, you can only cast that 15 times this turn.

If you, as one person can carry enough daemons into the game to run this army I will play you because I feel sad for you.

You don't even need that may models to make this work. If you're sticking to Pink Horrors and Heralds, 8 boxes or so should do the trick... and the boxes are currently only 29 USD each. Less if you can get a discounted box online.

Eihnlazer wrote:
I thought tzeench herals HAD to take at least one power in tzeench lore and thus would not auto get the primaris from either.

thats only a problem for CSM's with Mark of Tzeentch

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, read any of the threads about Forgeworld legality.

How does that change anything? The legality has absolutely nothing to do with needing your opponents permission to do anything.

It has literally been my point this entire time. I could give a feth if it's "legal" or not. If you do something that your opponent doesn't like, he doesn't have to play you. Done. No one is forced to do squat.

In tournaments??? Both sides have already agreed upon what rules to use when they paid for entry.

In the case of the statement, that says you need your opponents permission to field an Unbound army, is not any more true that saying that you need your opponents permission to field a "Battle Forged" army. Don't the rules simply say that you come to an agreement on what to play in total? Which includes everything.

That's just GW putting a fact, that has existed since the inventions of games, in writing. Water is wet. If GW were to place the phrase "Water is wet" in the rules is doesn't change the fact that this has always been the case.

One question-where does the fact helards even HAVE daemonology comes from?

The fact the ARMY has it, does not mean every psyker in it has it. as known by anyone that read any recent codex.

 Idolator wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, read any of the threads about Forgeworld legality.

How does that change anything? The legality has absolutely nothing to do with needing your opponents permission to do anything.

It has literally been my point this entire time. I could give a feth if it's "legal" or not. If you do something that your opponent doesn't like, he doesn't have to play you. Done. No one is forced to do squat.

In tournaments??? Both sides have already agreed upon what rules to use when they paid for entry.

In the case of the statement, that says you need your opponents permission to field an Unbound army, is not any more true that saying that you need your opponents permission to field a "Battle Forged" army. Don't the rules simply say that you come to an agreement on what to play in total? Which includes everything.

That's just GW putting a fact, that has existed since the inventions of games, in writing. Water is wet. If GW were to place the phrase "Water is wet" in the rules is doesn't change the fact that this has always been the case.

And for the last time, if you want to know how someone coud argue that they can use Forgeworld models without their opponent's permission read all of the dozens of threads we've had on the subject.. There's been enough of them that having GW explicitly say what they did was necessary.

Eihnlazer wrote:
I thought tzeench herals HAD to take at least one power in tzeench lore and thus would not auto get the primaris from either.


So you would have 19 rolls on the tzeench chart, then 38 rolls on malefic daemonology.


You should still get plenty of what you want, but its alot of bookkeeping to worry about.

As stated, Tzeralds may pick and choose any amount of their powers from Tzeentch or Divination (and Malefic with an upcoming FAQ.) (Interestingly, all these summoning lists floating around are completely illegal at this time.)

However, Tzeralds do have Chaos Focus (listed in the rulebook), which means that, regardless of whether they roll on Divination or Tzeentch or Malefic, they will always know Flickering Fires.
I have a PML2 Tzerald who rolls twice on Divination. He now knows Perfect Timing, Forewarning, Prescience (because of Psychic Focus), AND Flickering Fires (because of Chaos Focus). PML2 with 4 powers. Yay!

Actually...I'm not sure that they get psychic focus if they roll only on one table, as they DO have another power, and it states you lose your focus if you gain a power that belongs to any other discipline.
So its entirely possible it was made impossible for them to even get prescience, and any other prime power.

nah boom. they get it.


You get the free primaris if you Generate (with rolls) all your powers from the same tree.

If you get static powers without rolling, they dont count towards your psychic focus.

If you get any powers from any other discipline, you lose the psychic focus bonus power.

coredump wrote:
If you get any powers from any other discipline, you lose the psychic focus bonus power.

Yeah, you may be right.

This means, then, that Daemons and Marked Marines NEVER have Psychic Focus, and instead have Chaos Focus.
So a Daemon/Marked Marine always knows one more power than his PML, and that power is the appropriate Primaris of his God.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
If you get static powers without rolling, they dont count towards your psychic focus.

It actually says if you have powers that aren't a part of a specified discipline, then you may have Psychic Focus. The Gods' Powers are all from disciplines (Tzeentch, Change, Plague, etc), and so deny you the ability for Psychic Focus.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, read any of the threads about Forgeworld legality.

How does that change anything? The legality has absolutely nothing to do with needing your opponents permission to do anything.

It has literally been my point this entire time. I could give a feth if it's "legal" or not. If you do something that your opponent doesn't like, he doesn't have to play you. Done. No one is forced to do squat.

In tournaments??? Both sides have already agreed upon what rules to use when they paid for entry.

In the case of the statement, that says you need your opponents permission to field an Unbound army, is not any more true that saying that you need your opponents permission to field a "Battle Forged" army. Don't the rules simply say that you come to an agreement on what to play in total? Which includes everything.

That's just GW putting a fact, that has existed since the inventions of games, in writing. Water is wet. If GW were to place the phrase "Water is wet" in the rules is doesn't change the fact that this has always been the case.

And for the last time, if you want to know how someone coud argue that they can use Forgeworld models without their opponent's permission read all of the dozens of threads we've had on the subject.. There's been enough of them that having GW explicitly say what they did was necessary.

Are you seriously telling me that these forums that you mention, but don't expound on nor link to, will prove that a person can force another person to play a game in a manner that they do not want to play? Where do you play? Prison?

Ok, so the Chaos Psychic Focus could prevent you from automatically getting the primaris power. This is almost a total non issue as you would just swap one of the garbage powers you roll for the primaris. Then you'd have the Malefic primaris, 2 random Malefics and the Change primaris for the ML3 psykers and only 1 random for the ML2 psykers.

And if you don't think Pink Horrors or Tzeralds can take Malefic Daemonology...

iBooks Rulebook Page 390... "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed... Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

Neither unit has one or more specific psychic powers listed, so they instead generate random psychic powers from amongst the the psychic disciplines know to them. So which disciplines are know to them?

iBooks Rulebook Page 401... "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

Nowhere does it state that Pink Horrors and Tzeralds CAN'T generate powers from the Daemonology discipline. Therefore, they can.

The Codex:Chaos Daemons gives us permission for certain disciplines. The 7th Edition BRB gives blanket permission to all psykers to add Daemonology to the list of available disciplines.

As to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.

 Idolator wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, read any of the threads about Forgeworld legality.

How does that change anything? The legality has absolutely nothing to do with needing your opponents permission to do anything.

It has literally been my point this entire time. I could give a feth if it's "legal" or not. If you do something that your opponent doesn't like, he doesn't have to play you. Done. No one is forced to do squat.

In tournaments??? Both sides have already agreed upon what rules to use when they paid for entry.

In the case of the statement, that says you need your opponents permission to field an Unbound army, is not any more true that saying that you need your opponents permission to field a "Battle Forged" army. Don't the rules simply say that you come to an agreement on what to play in total? Which includes everything.

That's just GW putting a fact, that has existed since the inventions of games, in writing. Water is wet. If GW were to place the phrase "Water is wet" in the rules is doesn't change the fact that this has always been the case.

And for the last time, if you want to know how someone coud argue that they can use Forgeworld models without their opponent's permission read all of the dozens of threads we've had on the subject.. There's been enough of them that having GW explicitly say what they did was necessary.

Are you seriously telling me that these forums that you mention, but don't expound on nor link to, will prove that a person can force another person to play a game in a manner that they do not want to play? Where do you play? Prison?

Really? Dakka does have a search function. I'm not going to waste my time digging them up for you. If you want to know the answer, read them for yourself or stop trolling.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
As to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.

So it says that you can 0-4 heralds in your primary detachment... but does it say you cannot take Heralds in other detachments? Or could it simply be they take up regular HQ slots at that point? A rule that says you can take 0-4 in a primary detachment is not necessarily one that says you can't take any in a secondary detachment.