Unbound Shenanigans? Tzeentchian Clown Car?

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**Idolator**

Ghaz wrote:
Idolator wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Idolator wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
And again, read any of the threads about Forgeworld legality.

How does that change anything? The legality has absolutely nothing to do with needing your opponents permission to do anything.

It has literally been my point this entire time. I could give a feth if it's "legal" or not. If you do something that your opponent doesn't like, he doesn't have to play you. Done. No one is forced to do squat.

In tournaments??? Both sides have already agreed upon what rules to use when they paid for entry.

In the case of the statement, that says you need your opponents permission to field an Unbound army, is not any more true that saying that you need your opponents permission to field a "Battle Forged" army. Don't the rules simply say that you come to an agreement on what to play in total? Which includes everything.

That's just GW putting a fact, that has existed since the inventions of games, in writing. Water is wet. If GW were to place the phrase "Water is wet" in the rules is doesn't change the fact that this has always been the case.

And for the last time, if you want to know how someone coud argue that they can use Forgeworld models without their opponent's permission read all of the dozens of threads we've had on the subject.. There's been enough of them that having GW explicitly say what they did was necessary.

Are you seriously telling me that these forums that you mention, but don't expound on nor link to, will prove that a person can force another person to play a game in a manner that they do not want to play? Where do you play? Prison?

Really? If you want to know the answer, read them for yourself or stop trolling.

Firstly, I made a statement. Then you started trolling me. Check the thread. You went out of your way to tell me that I was wrong and that you don't need your opponents permission to do something.

Secondly. There's absolutely no reason to read anything, you don't even have to know the rules of a game to disallow someone from playing against you. You have to have permission from your opponent to even play against him! If your selected opponent doesn't like what you bring, he doesn't have to play against you. How is this hard to understand? I'm not going on some goose chase for something that cannot possibly change the fact that you cannot force a person to play a game if he doesn't want to.

There is nothing in the Rules, much less a forum of pontificates that can compel me to accept a game under conditions that I don't approve. You do understand that you require consent from a person in order to compete against them?

I'll even give you an example if you want. Go ahead, ask me to play against you.

**Elric Greywolf**

Maddermax wrote:
Elric Greywolf wrote:
As to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.

So it says that you can 0-4 heralds in your primary detachment... but does it say you cannot take Heralds in other detachments? Or could it simply be they take up regular HQ slots at that point? A rule that says you can take 0-4 in a primary detachment is not necessarily one that says you can't take any in a secondary detachment.

Give me a simple rules quotation that explains how you CAN take Heralds in other detachments. Give me a simple rules quotation that explains how you can ever take more than four Heralds.
I've provided a quote that states quite clearly where Heralds are allowed. Show how they are allowed elsewhere.

**Idolator**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Maddermax wrote:
Elric Greywolf wrote:
As to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.

So it says that you can 0-4 heralds in your primary detachment... but does it say you cannot take Heralds in other detachments? Or could it simply be they take up regular HQ slots at that point? A rule that says you can take 0-4 in a primary detachment is not necessarily one that says you can't take any in a secondary detachment.

Give me a simple rules quotation that explains how you CAN take Heralds in other detachments. Give me a simple rules quotation that explains how you can ever take more than four Heralds.
I've provided a quote that states quite clearly where Heralds are allowed. Show how they are allowed elsewhere.

It's almost as if the Daemon rules weren't written for the current Army composition rules. Hmmmmm.

**Kriswall**

All I'm seeing is some wording allowing me to take up to 4 Heralds in a Primary Detachment with the benefit that they take up a single HQ slot. I'm not seeing anything that implies that I can't take a single Herald to fill an HQ slot as normal.

I'm considering the "4 in one slot" as a bonus rule that gives me an EXTRA way of taking Heralds in addition to the normal method. The normal method would still allow me one per HQ slot in any detachment.

**Jeff Tracy**

Kriswall wrote:
The way I'm reading the Unbound Rules and the Malefic Daemonology rules, I think I can do this just for the hilarity of it.

Can anyone see an issue with this?

1850 point list... 19 ML3 Heralds of Tzeentch... give one of them the Portaglyph thing.

Each Herald chooses only from Malefic Daemonology, so 62% of them, or roughly 11, have the ability to summon more Heralds. ALL of them have the ability to summon Pink Horrors.

So...

Turn 1. Use your D6 + 57 Warp Charges to first summon some Pink Horrors and then start summoning Heralds of Tzeentch, using the Pink Horrors as sacrifices. Give the new Heralds ML2 for 25 points. Have the Heralds who don't know the #4 power summon more Pink Horrors.

Turn 2. Depending on how your opponent reacts, either do this again to grow your force more, or start popping the Heralds who can summon Greater Daemons of whichever variety you like.

My friends and I tried this out last night as a gag and at the end of turn 1 I had gone from 19 Heralds to 29 Heralds and 21 Pink Horrors for a total of 80 Mastery Levels worth of Warp Dice. At the end of Turn 2, I was sitting with 6 Bloodthirsters and even more Heralds and Pink Horrors.

If this works, I'm officially dubbing this either "Tzeentchian Clown Car" or "Change you can Believe in!".

Automatically Appended Next Post:
When we tried this last night, using random rolls and versus an opponent with very little ability to Deny the Witch (keep in mind these are all Conjurations, so no buffs), I was able to generate an extra 2,080 points worth of models in two turns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
AND you should first have the ones who know it use Cursed Earth 3 times to give you a +3 to your Invuln and make sure the summoned models don't scatter.

You end up with an army of 2+ invuln, self spawning daemons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
AND you have such a variety of models you can summon, you should be able to counteract most other builds.

Since this is unbound, why not counter with 30 GK paladins run as "solodins"? Each one has two storm bolter shots per turn, each one can cast one psychic power, and as a single model is a unit, it generates 30 warp charges - more than enough to deny most successful castings, and then still have the shots to kill half or more of the enemy army by end of turn 2. Spend the extra 200 points on a inquisitor with psyoculum and go to town.

**Elric Greywolf**

Kriswall wrote:
All I'm seeing is some wording allowing me to take up to 4 Heralds in a Primary Detachment with the benefit that they take up a single HQ slot. I'm not seeing anything that implies that I can't take a single Herald to fill an HQ slot as normal.

I'm considering the "4 in one slot" as a bonus rule that gives me an EXTRA way of taking Heralds in addition to the normal method. The normal method would still allow me one per HQ slot in any detachment.

See the "ONLY FOUR HERALDS" thread for my arguments about why this is illegal.

**Tyrius**

In the game D&D miniatures there was a warband that functioned liked this it was called "popcorn" I have dubbed this "PopKhorne"™

The rule you are quoting is misquoted. IN that you keep saying it says ONLY your primary detachment. The rule is in fact a bonus for your primary in that you can take 1-4 for 1 slot and it then lists the Heralds that you can take in this regard. If your interpretation were correct you could never take the masque or blue scribes in any army. They can not be added to the 1-4 in your primary but can be take as an HQ slot by themselves as can all the rest in any non primary detachment.

**CrownAxe**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
All I'm seeing is some wording allowing me to take up to 4 Heralds in a Primary Detachment with the benefit that they take up a single HQ slot. I'm not seeing anything that implies that I can't take a single Herald to fill an HQ slot as normal.

I'm considering the "4 in one slot" as a bonus rule that gives me an EXTRA way of taking Heralds in addition to the normal method. The normal method would still allow me one per HQ slot in any detachment.

See the "ONLY FOUR HERALDS" thread for my arguments about why this is illegal.

No where does it say "only four heralds". The section only refers to the primary detachment, it has no barring on other detachments because it doesn't say so.

**Idolator**

CrownAxe wrote:
Elric Greywolf wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
All I'm seeing is some wording allowing me to take up to 4 Heralds in a Primary Detachment with the benefit that they take up a single HQ slot. I'm not seeing anything that implies that I can't take a single Herald to fill an HQ slot as normal.

I'm considering the "4 in one slot" as a bonus rule that gives me an EXTRA way of taking Heralds in addition to the normal method. The normal method would still allow me one per HQ slot in any detachment.

See the "ONLY FOUR HERALDS" thread for my arguments about why this is illegal.

No where does it say "only four heralds". The section only refers to the primary detachment, it has no barring on other detachments because it doesn't say so.

There was some debate about whether you were allowed only 4 heralds because there is an entry that allows you to take 4 heralds in the primary detachment as one HQ choice. Some think that this limits you to only 4 and only in the primary detachment. However there is this.

"If you use the Unbound method, then once you chose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction (pg 118) as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive command benefits."

So you could take as many as you wanted in an unbound. There are there still those that argue you can only take heralds in the primary with a battle forged list.

**some bloke**

I'd love to play against this army, just in the hope that when they start they roll the instability tests for all warp storm result and half their army disappears.

one thing im wondering - do you have to roll warp-storm when you've got summoned daemons on the field?

**Tactical_Genius**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
As to including all those Heralds....
The Daemon book quite clearly and simply states that "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds...." Heralds are only for the Primary detachment, as no permission is given to take them in any other type of detachment.

There's no permission to take Heralds at all unless Daemons is your Primary Detachment. Once you are Battle-Forged, and Daemons is your Primary, you may only ever take a maximum of four Heralds, since you may only have one Primary Detachment, and you are limited to four Heralds per Primary Detachment.

If you go Unbound...then you just need a Daemon model as an HQ, which makes Daemons your Primary, which means you may take up to four Heralds. STILL no permission to take more than four Heralds.

So four Heralds is the maximum amount you are ever legally allowed to include in an army.

Could you just keep this to the thread you already made? Rather than hijacking every single thread that has daemons in it?

**Elric Greywolf**

some bloke wrote:
I'd love to play against this army, just in the hope that when they start they roll the instability tests for all warp storm result and half their army disappears.

one thing im wondering - do you have to roll warp-storm when you've got summoned daemons on the field?

No. Warp Storm is only in effect when your Primary Detachment is Daemons.

You could take an Unbound army with a single Daemon as your Warlord, making Daemons your Primary, and thus gaining the Warp Storm. But I would not suggest this for most armies, because of "Allies of Convenience" and targeting enemy units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Could you just keep this to the thread you already made? Rather than hijacking every single thread that has daemons in it?

Yes.

**Brothererekose**

Sigvatr wrote:
Scorched Earth doesn't stack; 7th was changed to explicitely state that the same psychic power cannot stack with itself.

Got a page or quote?

Bottom of page 24, RH column states that, "no unit can attempt to manifest the same power." Okay.

But, if I've split off a buncha Warlocks, one each to various DAs, Guardians, etc, and they're casting several Maledictions against the same one enemy unit, those *will* stack.

Say 3 Enervates from 3 separate unit warlocks. The enemy, if not having Denied the Witch, will be -3 Str.

**NauticalKendall**

Summon pink horrors, with pink horrors, then just before units die off, turn them into greater daemons of Tzeentch, then do the same, until that daemon is almost dead, then turn your greater daemon of Tzeentch into a greater daemon of Tzeentch...

**knas ser**

Kriswall wrote:
If this works, I'm officially dubbing this either "Tzeentchian Clown Car" or "Change you can Believe in!".

You have my vote for either to be the official name of this tactic!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NauticalKendall wrote:
turn your greater daemon of Tzeentch into a greater daemon of Tzeentch...

You can do that? I suppose technically you can! Wow! The Revolving Door of Chaos. Deamons go out, daemons go in. Instant Wound replenishment!

**Kriswall**

knas ser wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
If this works, I'm officially dubbing this either "Tzeentchian Clown Car" or "Change you can Believe in!".

You have my vote for either to be the official name of this tactic!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NauticalKendall wrote:
turn your greater daemon of Tzeentch into a greater daemon of Tzeentch...

You can do that? I suppose technically you can! Wow! The Revolving Door of Chaos. Deamons go out, daemons go in. Instant Wound replenishment!

You'd have to get pretty lucky when rolling your Psychic Powers, but yeah, it's doable.

**Hansisaf**

Brothererekose wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
Scorched Earth doesn't stack; 7th was changed to explicitely state that the same psychic power cannot stack with itself.
Got a page or quote?
[...]

Page 26 Blessing:
[...] The benefit of one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative. [...]

One could argue that GW isn't talking about, for example, Scorched Earth, but one particular Scorched Earth cast by one paricular psyker. I believe this to be false, because a psyker can only cast a blessing once per turn.