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Isn't the flamer a "ranged weapon"? It is torrent.

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:
Isn't the flamer a "ranged weapon"? It is torrent.

The weapon in question being singled out however is the Hades Autocannon as described within the question.

I'll go ahead and ask you, though.

I just took a look at the old FAQ. What makes you think the baleflamer is a turret weapon?

Failing to see the problem, it was OP before. Its good that it got taken down a few pegs and brought in line with the other flyers. Its not as broken anymore thus you have to actually use some skill to use it, thus many players will be upset.

So with Torrent, we still get a nice 180 degree death flamer fan. IMO its worth it just to not hear the complaints anymore....

Oh noes my stupidly designed OP flyer has been brought back in line with the rest of the units in the game

Voting option #3

It's absolutely fine. It was ridiculous before, now it's balanced.

(Your third option made me lol though. If it'd been an option in any of the 'did Nids get their codex ruined' threads, I'd have picked it there.)

Depicting that the autocannon is a normal gun and the flamer is turreted based on "a" vs "the" wording is REALLY reading between the lines. GL getting that one to fly, nobody will buy it and will label you a "That Guy" for trying. If this was true, they would have specifically said the "Autocannon is aimed from the barrel of the gun" - they write the faqs like that all-the-time.

Unless you dont want friends in this expensive hobby with a low population. Then do what you want. I just know if you pulled that crap on me i wouldnt even high-low that i would just walk away and refuse to play against you again for trying to weasel around words in a FAQ to benefit you.

Voted no on accident :(

I'll gladly take the nerf to Heldrakes if it means people won't give me the stink eye just for fielding 1 or 2...

Its unreal how much hate there is for the heldrake when its not even near the best thing in 40k... And it comes in a codex that can only be described with "meh"

So now if we field three will people still whine like babies? My thoughts are still yes.

But lets be honest here, the torrent is really unaffected, so who really cares right?

I realized after looking at the FAQ's that that argument was a waste of time anyway. If we assume Golioth's argument about it referring *only* to the hades autocannon is true because it refers to page 52, then that same argument has to be applied to the old FAQ. The old FAQ references page 52 when it says that the weapon is a turret weapon, just like the new FAQ references page 52 when it says the weapon is a hull-mounted one.

So if we assume that the baleflamer was a turret weapon because of what the old FAQ said, then we have to assume that the baleflamer is now a hull mounted weapon, since the wording and references made in the FAQ are exactly the same.

Lets just agree, that donuts are amazing. And that the whole she-bang was a waste of time lol

Doughnuts are heresy.

I can make people with any man who uses a Starcraft reference as their username though.

Theyre fine now. The fact that the hades and flamer are contested in usefulness (AA vs AG), and the fact that hover might actually be use for ACTUAL MANEUVERABILITY make this thing a lot more realistically balanced. I might actually field one and not feel like an arsehole.

People bitch and complain about 40k balance, but then when they balance a blatently unbalanced unit, they bitch and complain even harder that their unbalanced thing was balanced. *rollseyes*

GoliothOnline wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The FAQ specifically says:

"Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake's ranged weapon?
A: Treat[b] the[/b] Heldrake's ranged weapon as a hull-mounted weapon, measuring all ranges and line of sight from the barrel of the gun."

So no, the question is regarding *all* the ranged weapons on the Heldrake, to which the answer is "treat it as a hull-mounted weapons".

Point of reference Page 52 C:CSM
Weapon being Referenced on Page 52 C:CSM Hades Autocannon.
Is the question referring to "ALL" weapons? Clearly not.

"...thus, this man who's raped and killed 12 children is innocent. Thanks, court".

Rule lawhering. You can eventually come to whatever you want. Is it worth the effort?

 McGibs wrote:
Theyre fine now. The fact that the hades and flamer are contested in usefulness (AA vs AG), and the fact that hover might actually be use for ACTUAL MANEUVERABILITY make this thing a lot more realistically balanced. I might actually field one and not feel like an arsehole.

People bitch and complain about 40k balance, but then when they balance a blatently unbalanced unit, they bitch and complain even harder that their unbalanced thing was balanced. *rollseyes*

It's generally why I prefer the "buff the weak" over "nerf the strong" approach to rebalancing a game.

Especially for already decidedly unimpressive armies.

The Hadesdrake remains a silly way to waste 170 points and a precious FA slot.

The Baledrake isn't useless but the nerfs to the star of the CSM codex have pushed it lower down the rung. Which is a problem when it was already "that other Chaos codex" or the "marine book without the better toys and actually helpful allies."

So if it's hull mounted it now has a 45 degree arc for the torrent?

Let's be honest, it's still good, especially against power armour, but know requires a little more thought to use well, like all the other fliers.

so you cant shoot backwards and you only get 1 hit instead of D3+1 when vector striking (but i is now AP2). Not a massive nerf and definitely still worth taking with a bale flamer. Bring along a lash prince for AA instead.

also having the question on the poll be phrased with the opposite logic to the thread title is very confusing (i also voted no by accident)

Fool. You put the question in the title and the question in the poll opposite ways around.

Helldrake is still a decent flyer - in fact, probably still the best in the game. Its just not unbelievably so anymore.

You all forgot the new change to templates, now the flammer will hit ALL the floors of the buildings ignoring cover and LOS if there is at least 1 model at sigth. That fix everything that have been nerfed in my opinion. That and of course the cool buff to vehicle damage chart as our flyers will ignore most of shaken efects. So now there are less AA weapons that any1 will use as they are more specialiced...... no1 in his sane mind will use FMCs anymore in competitive list, vehicles are way more durable, our main weapons have become more dangerous and we even can kill Teqs now and dmg riptides.....

I still like my Dwaguns, as i love my cheap biomancy sorcerers in rhinos and my maulerfiends. All vehicles, all hard to kill, all scoring. Any1 see an army there?

Wait a minute...

So the HadesDrake is rubbish now?

I think it's worth taking now.

It's generally why I prefer the "buff the weak" over "nerf the strong" approach to rebalancing a game.

You want power creep? Because that's how you get power creep.

Some units need buffing, some units need nerfing. You can't just buff EVERYTHING.
Heldrake was woefully overpowered and needed a hit. This brings it in line with pretty much every other flyer in the game. Are there other internal balance issues within the CSM dex? Of course. But bringing everything else up to the same stupid level as the heldrake isn't a good design solution.

Well, the nerf is a must-have.

The Helldrake is no longer a no-brainer.

I love how everyone is complaining that it got nerfed. It is back to what it was before the BS FAQ meant I needed to shelve mine.

Now I can bring them without people bitching so I am happy.

look on page 174 in the warhammer rules donot get you panties in a tangle,it is still a torrent,go 12 inches out

Oh no, poor Heldrakes actually have to follow the rules now.
Why are they singling out this poor unit?
What's that? All the other Flyers have to follow the rules as well?

Exactly.

You can't shoot fireballs from your arse anymore, but it still has a very respectable field of fire and an ugly weapon.

And it can flambe anyone dumb enough to ride in an open-topped transport these days too, which was pretty much the ONLY defense my Orks and DE had against the fething thing.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Oh no, poor Heldrakes actually have to follow the rules now.
Why are they singling out this poor unit?
What's that? All the other Flyers have to follow the rules as well?

Well, all the flyers that don’t actually have 360 turrets on them,

Both of the marine flyers use a mix of fixed and turreted guns, Not sure about the other races.

The heldrake weapon should be sponson mounted, not turreted or hull mounted, giving it a front firing arc.

The neck can crane about, not all the way back to shoot stuff out it's a#$ but to the side sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Puscifer wrote:
Wait a minute...
So the HadesDrake is rubbish now?
I think it's worth taking now.

170 points for 2 krak missile hits and 1 VS a turn once it comes on the board. With the hull mounted gun it is unliked to even get that.

 Exergy wrote:
The heldrake weapon should be sponson mounted, not turreted or hull mounted, giving it a front firing arc.

The neck can crane about, not all the way back to shoot stuff out it's a#$ but to the side sure.

That actually sounds like a reasonable compromise. Of course, the torrent rule gives you a good deal of flex on what you’re killing, so the 45 is not a restrictive as it seems. Well, for the flamer anyway, the AC is still screwed.