Does a Phase Shifter grant a Chariot a 3++?

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**zachwho**

Oooh wow, the necron one will get nerfed too then I'm sure.

that sucks!!

**Sigvatr**

zachwho wrote:
Oooh wow, the necron one will get nerfed too then I'm sure.

that sucks!!

I wouldn't call removing something that obviously isn't RAI and has extremely debatable RAW a "nerf".

**Nilok**

Shandara wrote:
Unfortunately the daemon FAQ makes Heralds lose their IC status upon purchasing a Chariot, so no joining your AV12 Khorne Herald to a Bloodcrusher unit.

Well, that settles whether or not a CCB can join a non-MC/Vehicle unit at the moment. He retains his IC rule unlike the Heralds.

Sigvatr wrote:
zachwho wrote:
Oooh wow, the necron one will get nerfed too then I'm sure.

that sucks!!

I wouldn't call removing something that obviously isn't RAI and has extremely debatable RAW a "nerf".

Hard to say at this point what is RAI, it is possible that the CCB is now intended to join with units.
With the rate of FAQs at the moment, we should hopefully have an answer soon.

**zachwho**

you're right, i shouldn't have called it a Nerf, but sucks none the less!!!

and I'm just going to throw a little mini fit in our group, if i can't do it, neither can you :p!!!

**Sigvatr**

Nilok wrote:

Hard to say at this point what is RAI, it is possible that the CCB is now intended to join with units.
With the rate of FAQs at the moment, we should hopefully have an answer soon.

It's not hard to say. Vehicles suddenly gaining armor saves? Vehicles jonining regular units? It's pretty darn sure that this is not RAI.

**zachwho**

the vehicle isn't gaining an armor save, its gaining an invulnerable save. that's nothing new.

as far as joining units, i thought it was an awesome idea, but since i can't do it, its completely cheese rules lawyering, that's completely unintentional, against spirit of the game, not RAI, and no where supported by RAW!!!!

**Neorealist**

Point of order: Many of the same rules allowing the CCB to benefit from a phase shifter also allow it to benefit from sempiternal weave (a 2+ armor save). However, since vehicles don't interact with armor saves all that well yet, what that does in practical terms is pretty much nothing for the CCB specifically.

**rigeld2**

Neorealist wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:No, the Chariot explicitly does not share the rider's wargear. Until you cite a rule proving otherwise.
The chariot is not 'sharing' the riders wargear. The chariot is being effected by the riders' wargear.

As to why this is happening? the reason has been repeatedly stated, but i'll quote it again here for reference:
Phase Shifter
"...a model with a phase shifter has a 3+ invulnerable save..."
Chariot Rules
"...However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model..."
Invulnerable save rules
"...Models with wargear or abilities like these are allowed an invulnerable saving throw..."
Wargear Rules
"... Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics..."

You'll notice a common theme...

Now tell me, where does it say you have to refer to a profile for any of the above?

I'll type slowly because I've said it before.
What gives permission to have the invul? Wargear.
Where is the wargear? On the Overlords profile.
If you're using the AV on the vehicle profile to defend against an attack (meaning the Overlord profile isn't being used) why are you using part of the Overlords profile?

Fellstrom wrote:No, the Chariot explicitly does not share the rider's wargear. Until you cite a rule proving otherwise.

Rules explicate chariots profile like this (Pg. 86 BRB):

''Chariot is an unusual unit with dual profile... However, a chariot is always treated as a single model.''

So what taking CCB clearly does, is just simply adding second profile to use.

Phase Shifter pg. 82, cron codex:

''A model with a phase shifter has a 3+ invulnerable save.''

So how is exactly possible, that CCB is one model, but is restricted using its wargear because it has a two profiles?
Two profiles do not effect in any way to wargear.

Also there is stated (Pg. 86 also in BRB):

''When determinig the required To Hit roll for any weapon fired by a Chariot model, use the Ballistic Skill on the Chariot's profile for any weapons mounted on the Chariot itself, and the Ballistic Skill on the rider's profile for any weapons wielded by the rider.''

So they actually _share same wargear_ They are just ordered to use different BS for different weapons.
For a crazy example, Overlord has a Quantum shielding while riding chariot, but it just has no effects on him.

I think this is the most strongest expression, that the Chariot truly has a 3++ that it can really use.

This is really hard to turn over I think.

And what comes to special rules, yes, they share them too.
Rules do not state at any point that Ever-Living would be an exception. Chariot just needed rules for it, because necrons codex hasnt stated them.

How does your quote suggest they share the same wargear? It even consistently describes that the wargear is separate (riders profile vs chariots profile). And it enforces that you don't cross the streams.

Two profiles explicitly affect wargear because wargear is part of your profile.

Oh, and the accusations of trolling are reported. It's not polite.

**Gravmyr**

1. Does the Phase shifter give the model an Invuln Save? Yes.
- "...a model with a phase shifter has a 3+ invulnerable save..."
2. Are the Overlord and CCB one model? Yes.
- "...However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model..."
- The premise that abilities or wargear cannot overlap is not covered. I can find multiple instances where a instead of GW giving a blanket rule they gave exceptions. I can also find instances where GW posted multiple FAQs that supported an overriding view but never posted a blanket rule which would have cleared them all up. GW states in the Chariot section they are always treated as one model then to split up hits between chariot and rider. We can either conclude they are part of the same model or that they are two models, since the rules tell us they are the same model we have to assume that the former is how we should act.
- What is also unfortunate is that the rider's profile is looked at for characteristic tests. This means initiative tests and strength tests are now done off his stats.
3. Does the model as a whole have an Invuln Save then?
- RAW it looks like it, RAI we have no idea. Until it is faqed it looks like they do.

Opinion: Skyshield Command Barge..... Talk it over.
Edit: Removal of non-characteriatic test statement from that point.

**reds8n**

Too much bickering.