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 Tonberry7 wrote:
Who said anything about mid game? Conjured units are treated as reserves for all rules purposes, and therefore are counted as being present before the start. You're conveniently ignoring this.

you did... WTF man, you are not making any sense, you are making up a lot of assumptions based on what exactly????

you summon units MID GAME... hence the rules MID GAME being discussed... yet you are acting like you wrote down the units you have yet to summon on your pre game list that deals with assigning detachments.

I am not ignoring anything, you are literally, making rules up to follow, and then ignoring half the rules that your made up rules would force you to follow...

quote the pg # that says units created mid game, must have PRE game only rules applied to them, and only the pre game rules you think should be applied, while not the pre game rules you dont want to apply.

quote a rule or admit you are just making stuff up... nothing even tells us to treat summoned units as pre game reserves for all purposes... they arrive via DS, thats it, that has 0 to do with what detachment they are in.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Who said anything about mid game? Conjured units are treated as reserves for all rules purposes, and therefore are counted as being present before the start. You're conveniently ignoring this.

Please explain to em the status of all your reserves, before game begins. Including all of your summoned units.

Oh wait, you can't...

Okay, I will bite...
Do we have to purchase more Troops and Head-Quarter Units for all the Detachments that my yet-to-be-summoned Units will require?

only if you have to follow PRE GAME detachment rules in the middle of the game...

which is a solid no both by RAW, RAI, and the results of this poll

once the game has started, you dont need the detachment rules, so are neither bound by the restrictions on detachments, but you also do NOT gain the benifits of detachments.

I strongly disagree, and you not only glossed over the argument I made, where it explicitly states that the spawned Termagants are identical in every way, but you have failed to offer any shred of evidence that detachments cannot change during the course of a game.

For instance, take the example of Grey Knights and Justicar Thawn. In this hypothetical example, a GK player is taking only a primary detachment of GK with a HQ choice and 6 Troops, one of which includes the upgrade character Justicar Thawn. As this Army is Battle Forged, all Troops are OS. The rules clearly indicate that if Thawn is 'killed', a marker is placed and on a 4+, he is placed back on the battlefield with a wound restored, and is treated as a separate unit from this point.

By your logic he is either part of some illusory separate detachment created just for him, and gives up the ability he started the game with, OR he remains part of the original detachment, which forms a now-illegal army since the detachment would then have 7 Troops on the board (assuming the rest of his squad wasn't wiped out when he was "killed" but simply proceeded to assault, or something).

In my opinion, these are both ridiculous interpretations of the rules. Whether the Termagants that have been rapidly gestating in the Tervigon pop out during a battle, or Thawn pulls his totally-not-creepy self-resurrection trick off, they don't suddenly become some sort of separate detachment, and they shouldn't be denied the same bonuses that their brethren enjoy simply due to the fact that you don't like them.

Furthermore, lumping together several disparate mechanics like summoning and spawning and whatever it is that Thawn does creates numerous problems precisely because they ARE distinct and different mechanics, and should be treated as such.

No, I'm pretty sure I never mentioned mid game anywhere. P26 gives the rule for Conjured units treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes. If they were in reserves this means they were in the army at the deployment stage, I.e. before the game starts. A unit has to be in your army for it to be placed in reserve. You can't reserve a unit not in your army at the list building stage.

 easysauce wrote:
only if you have to follow PRE GAME detachment rules in the middle of the game...

which is a solid no both by RAW, RAI, and the results of this poll

once the game has started, you dont need the detachment rules, so are neither bound by the restrictions on detachments, but you also do NOT gain the benifits of detachments.

You do when the rule states that you have a unit that is exactly the same as another unit. If one has the rule and the other doesnt, then you have broken the more specific rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure I never mentioned mid game anywhere. P26 gives the rule for Conjured units treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes.

Yes they have used the Deep Strike rules to get onto the field. and yes they are treated as if they have arrived from reserve, this means they can not assault the same turn and must deep strike scatter, but that is all it means.

If they were in reserves this means they were in the army at the deployment stage, I.e. before the game starts.

Except they were not in reserve, they did not exist until the power was successfully cast.

A unit has to be in your army for it to be placed in reserve.

True, but you do not place summoned demons into reserve, not sure where you are getting the idea that you do.

You can't reserve a unit not in your army at the list building stage.

Right, that is why it is a good thing that you do not place the demons into reserve at any point, you just cast the conjuration and the unit is created.

Bottom Line:
You are not putting the summoned unit into reserves...

It would seem to me b/c of the wording on Termagants they would count as Troops and receive OS. I also don't see Thrawn changing what he is.

The demons being conjured and arriving from reserves but were not in your list from the start of the game so they do not have Obj secured.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure I never mentioned mid game anywhere. P26 gives the rule for Conjured units treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes.

Yes they have used the Deep Strike rules to get onto the field. and yes they are treated as if they have arrived from reserve, this means they can not assault the same turn and must deep strike scatter, but that is all it means.

If they were in reserves this means they were in the army at the deployment stage, I.e. before the game starts.

Except they were not in reserve, they did not exist until the power was successfully cast.

A unit has to be in your army for it to be placed in reserve.

True, but you do not place summoned demons into reserve, not sure where you are getting the idea that you do.

You can't reserve a unit not in your army at the list building stage.

Right, that is why it is a good thing that you do not place the demons into reserve at any point, you just cast the conjuration and the unit is created.

Bottom Line:
You are not putting the summoned unit into reserves...

You can't just ignore the parts of reserves rules that don't suit your argument. Conjured units are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes Most of your points directly contradict this.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


You can't just ignore the parts of reserves rules that don't suit your argument. Conjured units are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes Most of your points directly contradict this.

They really don't, because you have not actually placed the summoned unit into reserve as they did not exist before the power was manifested.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


You can't just ignore the parts of reserves rules that don't suit your argument. Conjured units are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes Most of your points directly contradict this.

They really don't, because you have not actually placed the summoned unit into reserve as they did not exist before the power was manifested.

They really do, because the rulebook explicitly states this on p26. Are you now just ignoring this rule as well?

JinxDragon wrote:
CrownAxe,
It is something that makes me wonder, where this concept that the List has to remain legal throughout the entire duration of the game comes from.
More so given how many Rules can remove, create or somehow modify a Unit in such a way it would be 'illegal' if that Restriction was not just a pre-game List Building Requirement.

Where did you get the idea that I needed the list to remain legal during the game?

If anything I was saying the opposite. If summoned units aren't a part of a detachment then that doesn't make a legal list.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


You can't just ignore the parts of reserves rules that don't suit your argument. Conjured units are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes Most of your points directly contradict this.

They really don't, because you have not actually placed the summoned unit into reserve as they did not exist before the power was manifested.

They really do, because the rulebook explicitly states this on p26. Are you now just ignoring this rule as well?

So you declared them to be in Deep Strike Reserves at the start of the game, as per the Deep Strike rule?

easysauce, you accuse me of following "only some" of the detachment rules. But that is only based on *your assumptions* about the detachment rules.


You are very hung up on the '6 unit limit' of the detachment rule when summoning units. But completely blow it off when combat squading or squadrons separating.
It is very obvious that the 'X unit limit' is meant for listbuilding, and even then frequently ignores the limit when other rules allow for it.
If you combat squad, you go from 6 units to 7
If you spawn gaunts, you go from 6 units to 7
If you abandon/split a squadron, you go from 3 units to 4

All of these 'break' the 'X unit limit', but you are okay with 2 of them, and find the third one completely unacceptable.

CrownAxe,
I was not accusing you, I was pondering if you actually have an answer as to where this misconception seems to stem from.
You have invested more time into this then I have, so I assume you have encountered it more.

coredump wrote:
easysauce, you accuse me of following "only some" of the detachment rules. But that is only based on *your assumptions* about the detachment rules.


You are very hung up on the '6 unit limit' of the detachment rule when summoning units. But completely blow it off when combat squading or squadrons separating.
It is very obvious that the 'X unit limit' is meant for listbuilding, and even then frequently ignores the limit when other rules allow for it.
If you combat squad, you go from 6 units to 7
If you spawn gaunts, you go from 6 units to 7
If you abandon/split a squadron, you go from 3 units to 4

All of these 'break' the 'X unit limit', but you are okay with 2 of them, and find the third one completely unacceptable. except I do not.. dont put words in my mouth, either ALL of these rules are ignored, or they all apply.

siiiighhh,, no just no...


if you actually READ what I have been saying, then you would see that is not what I am saying....

I have simply stated you either follow ALL the detachment rules (limits AND benifits like OBJ secured) or you dont follow any of them (again limits AND benifits such as OBJ secured)


yet we have people in this thread claiming, without any proof, that they both get to ignore the limits laid out in detachment rules (FOC #'s ect) but that they get the benifits from those rules at the same time (OBJ secured)


every single one of the detachment rules, FOC's, OBjective secured rules, all of them, are LIST BUILDING PRE GAME rules.

yet you are claiming detachment rules such as "FOC restrictions are OBVIOUSLY pre game" while at the same time, claiming that other detachment rules such as objective secured are "mid game" rules.

see what you did there?

you choose to apply one detachment rule mid game (the benefit of objective secured) and ignore another (FOC limits)


actual RAW, is that every single detachment rule is done and assigned PRE GAME.

both the beneficial ones, and the detrimental/restrictive ones.

so FOC, a list building rule, does not matter at all mid game, no matter for summoned, tervigon, or whatever new units you get. (for tervigons specifically, despite the units being scoring troops from your army list/codex, that is NOT the requirement to gain the obj secured rule, the requirement to gain that rule is that your unit MUST be selected PRE GAME as a troops in the CAD detachment. you are even required to inform your opponent, PRE GAME as to what is what detachment.)

Objective secured, does not get magically applied to things that were not given it at list building, just as FOC limits do not get magically applied to units that were not there at list building.



why do you want to apply the list building rules to gain objective secured, and ignore the list building rules for FOC's?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


You can't just ignore the parts of reserves rules that don't suit your argument. Conjured units are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes Most of your points directly contradict this.

They really don't, because you have not actually placed the summoned unit into reserve as they did not exist before the power was manifested.

They really do, because the rulebook explicitly states this on p26. Are you now just ignoring this rule as well?

So you fully described your reserves at the start of the game, as also require?

I'd love to know how you did this with units that did not exist

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


You can't just ignore the parts of reserves rules that don't suit your argument. Conjured units are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes Most of your points directly contradict this.

They really don't, because you have not actually placed the summoned unit into reserve as they did not exist before the power was manifested.

They really do, because the rulebook explicitly states this on p26. Are you now just ignoring this rule as well?

So somehow you placed a unit that did not exist into reserves?

Please cite rules that show how this process is accomplished.

They are are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes, this means that they can not charge, and they count as having moved when shooting weapons that turn.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

You can't just ignore the parts of reserves rules that don't suit your argument. Conjured units are treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes Most of your points directly contradict this.

How is 'treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes" the same as "treated as being units in your army list which were placed into Deep Strike Reserve before the start of the game"?


They are treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. It doesn't say anything, one way or another, in the Conjuration rules, about which detachment they belong to.

Under Choosing Your Army, it tells you that you have to write up your force roster, which includes the details of the models that make up your army, which units belong to which detachments, which detachment is your Primary Detachment, and which model is your army's Warlord. You couldn't possibly do that for Conjured units, since you don't know how many of them (if any) you receive.

No one "placed a unit which did not exist into reserves". Nowhere under Conjuration (p26) does it say that the unit was placed into reserves. It just says that the "new unit arrives via Deep Strike" and "is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes".

The unit wasn't in reserves, because it didn't exist until you summoned it. You summoned it on the battlefield. The rules specifically describe it as a NEW unit, so it can't possibly be a unit which was included on your force roster as a unit in your army. It can't be a new unit if it is already a unit in your army. Those are existing units.

It might seem weird to have a unit be treated as arriving from Reserves when it never entered reserves, but Conjuration is different than putting units into Reserve at the start of the game. It uses some of the same rules (those it specifically tells you to use) just so they don't print the exact same rules in two different places. In any case, the summoned unit doesn't arrive from reserves. It is treated as having done so. If it actually arrived from reserves, there would be no need to tell you to treat it as if it had.

so 92% of people are on the same page here,


you either follow all detachment rules mid game, for bonuses and restrictions,

or you ignore them all.

Summoned units do not belong to any FOC slots, they are slotless as we have no permission to assign them to any FOC slot etc. If we did have permission than any Daemons army that summoned to many would become unbound.

Have fateweaver and four heralds, but one turns into a Bloodthirster mid game, sorry you are now Unbound..... etc makes no sense and is the implication of letting summoned Daemons modify the FOC or Detatchments.

They are slotless and certainly do not benefit from Objective Secured, they are not troops because they were not Troop Units that were purchases to fill the Troops FOC slot of a detatchment.

They may be scoring, but they certainly are not Objective Secured Scoring.

 easysauce wrote:
so 92% of people are on the same page here,


you either follow all detachment rules mid game, for bonuses and restrictions,

or you ignore them all.

By making up rules to create a new detachment not bound by the FOC mid game, or not placing conjured units in a detachment at all (both of which have no rules support) does this mean we have to ignore all bonuses and restrictions for our army then?

 Tonberry7 wrote:
By making up rules to create a new detachment not bound by the FOC mid game, or not placing conjured units in a detachment at all (both of which have no rules support) does this mean we have to ignore all bonuses and restrictions for our army then?

You make it sound like placing them in an FOC mid game has rules support.
It does not.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
By making up rules to create a new detachment not bound by the FOC mid game, or not placing conjured units in a detachment at all (both of which have no rules support) does this mean we have to ignore all bonuses and restrictions for our army then?

You make it sound like placing them in an FOC mid game has rules support.
It does not.

Then you're misrepresenting my post. Agreed, the rules don't explicitly state they do join a detachment but the argument for this being the case is as valid as making up rules for a new detachment coming into existence that doesn't conform to the FOC.

I'd agree that the issue needs an FAQ and I'd be happy however GW clarified the issue.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I was wondering if a non chaos army summons daemons, and they are not buddies with chaos, do the summoned daemons force the other army, lets say, ultramarines to do a "one eye open" check?

I made a thread regarding this that was swiftly lost in the flood of 7th Ed. posts. Link is http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596644.page but the abstract is "Given the fact that Summoning has a 12" range, excepting special circumstances involving movement outside of the movement phase (Running, Assaulting, etc.) there is a 11/36 (odds of rolling at least one 1 on two d6) chance that your summoned unit and/or the summoning unit will do nothing for the next turn. This goes at least some way to address both issues of balance and issues of Imperial forces being "ok" with the summoning of daemons. Whether it goes far enough is left as an exercise for the forum."

So about the being in reserve thing surely they count as being in "on going reserves" for that like all.the other stuff that ends up in reserve mid game such as flyers and things. On going reserves deals with mid game reserves that wherent placed there before game.


Battle forged describes an army when set up at the beginning ofa game has followed a set critera this can and does change mid game it does not change the fact that the army was battleforged to start with just becuase you summon new units does not mean your suddenly unbound :/

So now lets check.the rules for on going reserves as dont have book atm see if that helps

Detachments are created Pre-game troops in those detachments get objective secured.
There is no permission given to modify those detachments in game, in fact there are several rules to prevent (such as killing a pre-req character that makes a special unit troops does not stop those units from being troops).
Summoning clearly creates a new unit that cannot be in your detachment as it was created pre-game.
There is no special rule making the summoned unit count as troops (such as they have done for tyranids).
Just because the unit happens to be the same type of unit that daemons can take as troops doesn't make them troops for that detachment without some permission to do so.
RAW you can't do it, no FAQ needed.

On pg.133 Conjured units & Victory conditions seems to make summoned units part of the army as far as victory conditions and victory points.

Here is a post from another thread where I tried to detail much of this problem.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
"Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction. "

This is wrong, it has nothing to do with FOC. It's to do with detachment.
Summoned daemons (troops) that are summoned by your primary detachment are a part of your primary detachment. Therefore any units (troops) within the primary detachment are objective secured.

Further more, they are identified as units within the powers description, you are told to refer to the daemon codex where they are listed under troops, therefore they are troop choices.
Troops choices under the primary detachment have objective secured.

However, if an allied CSM daemon prince summons, these are not within the primary detachment and would not be objective secured.

I value your opinion, but opinion is all you wrote.

Please specify the page number and quote the relevant rules that allows you to attribute a Troop Slot to a summoned unit. You have no permission to do so. If you did, summoning a Greater Daemon while you already have your two HQ slots filled would disqualify your army as it would become unbound.

Unless you are given permission to assign a summoned unit to a troops slot it is not a troops unit, defined by use as a unit selected to fill a troops slot on the FOC. "Troops" is a slot classification, summoned units have no permission to be allocated to a Slot and are therefore a slotless unit.

You are confusing a unit, Horrors selected to fill a Troop slot in a Daemons FOC, with the Summoned Unit Horrors whose relevant rules are taken from Chaos Daemons. One fills a Troop Slot and is a Troop unit, the other has no such classification and without a FAQ or Errata you have no permission to do so.

Unless told otherwise, Summoned Units are Slotless and are still bound by Allies restrictions.


This summary is for the rules as they stand, not how you think they should be played. If you disagree, there are arguments going on in YMDC right now about this very topic.


On another note, Conjured units do not belong to any Detachment, they simply belong to the Army as laid out in "Conjured Units & Victory Conditions". Again, please specify the Pg and quote the rule that allows you to add a conjured unit to a detatchment, expecially when you have a non Chaos Daemons Summoner. You would require specific permission to do that, none exists.

Happy to oblige although you may want to back up your own information with official references.
AND... before you share tactical advice I would suggest gaining opinion on points raised before sharing advice which can be falsified through BRB references.


Page 122:
Objective Secured:
All Troops Units from this detachment have objective secured.

Page 195
Summoning:
"Creates one of the following Units...."
Rules for these units are found in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

These units are listed under the unit type "Troops" in the Codex: Chaos Daemons.
This means these units are classed as Troops.

To further prove this I will end with a final statement from:
Page 118:
All of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

So clearly all units in YOUR ARMY have to be contained within one Detachment.

You failed to prove your point. Here is exactly why. Nothing states that a Summoned Unit is given a battlefield role. Nothing states a conjured unit is added to a detachment. All rules supplied by you are in reference to the Force Roster, how your army is selected and FOC Slots each unit is taken in which is applicable for creating your army. It lists all of the units in the detachment, and those that are troops units of that detachment. Here are a couple of practical examples of why your method does not work...

Battleforged Combined Arms Codex Daemons Detachment.

Fateweaver
4xHeralds
Horrors
Horrors

We have a legal CA Detachment. One Herald casts Possession and is removed from play as a Lord of Change is added.

Under my interpretation of the rules nothing changes, it is a scoring unit but is not part of the detachment, merely the army. It is not held to the Restrictions nor the Command Benefits of the Detachments. It is a Slotless Unit that is party of the army and has to abide by the levels of Allies which are Faction dependent.

Under your interpretation, the Conjured Lord of Change is an HQ unit added to the Detachment. We now have a detachment with three HQs and two troops. This is an illegal Detachment, we now have an Unbound Army. Many many more rules issues crop up.


Another example

Codex: Eldar Combined Arms Detachment
Eldar Farseer
Warloc Council
Eldar Farseer
Bikes
Bikes

We have a legal Combined Arms Detachment. One Warlock casts Possession and conjures a Blood Thirster.

Under my interpretation of the rules nothing changes, it is a scoring unit but is not part of the detachment, merely the army. It is not held to the Restrictions nor the Command Benefits of the Detachments. It is a Slotless Unit that is party of the army and has to abide by the levels of Allies which are Faction dependent.

Under your interpretation, the Conjured Blood Thirster is an HQ unit added to the Detachment. We now have a detachment with three HQs and two troops. This is an illegal Detachment, we now have an Unbound Army. We now have a Detachment with units from different Factions. This is illegal and we now have an Unbound Army. Many many more rules issues crop up.


Another Example

Battleforged Combined Arms Codex Daemons Detachment.

Fateweaver
4xHeralds
Horrors
Horrors

We have a legal CA Detachment. One Herald casts Summoning conjuring a unit of Horrors.

Under my interpretation of the rules nothing changes, it is a scoring unit but is not part of the detachment, merely the army. It is not held to the Restrictions nor the Command Benefits of the Detachments. It is a Slotless Unit that is party of the army and has to abide by the levels of Allies which are Faction dependent.

Under your interpretation, the Conjured Horrors are a Troop unit added to the Detachment. We now have a detachment with two HQs and two troops. This is a Legal Detachment and does not affect the status of the army. The Unit benefits from the Command Benefits of the Detachment.

I would like to you to pay close attention to how my reading of the rules is consistent and applicable in all situation whereas your reading of the rules breaks many rules and changes considerable based upon the specific situation. Nothing gives you permission to modify the Army Roster and add units to the Detachment once the game commences.

Please supply me the rules and quote which allows you to add a unit to a detachment once the game has started, allows you to modify the FOC after the game has started, allows you rectify the inconsistencies in the rules, rectifies the Faction and levels of Alliance problems, etc. And make sure the quote is not written and intended for Army Roster creation before the game starts.



Here is a list of many of the relevant quotes from the BRB.

Under Factions
"A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army, but is especially relevant to Detachments because many state that you can only include units of a particular Faction."

Under Selecting Detachments
"1) Force Organisation Chart

This shows the number of units of each battlefield role that you may include in this Detachment. Black boxes are choices you must include to take this Detachment, whilst grey boxes are optional choices.

2)Restrictions

This lists any restrictions that apply to the types of units you may include in this Detachment."

Under Force Organisation Charts and Slots
"This section of the Detachment lists the minimum and maximum number of units of each type that you must or may include in the Detachment.....Each slot allows you to take one unit..... Any further units of the same Battlefield Roel will need to be take in a different Detachment.... and cannot select more than six in the same Detachment."

Under Restrictions
"If an Army List Entry does not adhere to a particular restriction, it cannot be included as part of this particular Detachment. For example, in order to include a Combined Arms Detachment, all of its Army List Entries must have the same Faction."


Now under Victory Conditions

"Conjured Units & Victory Conditions
Certain psychic powers or special rules will allow you to 'conjure' a model or unit and make it appear on the battlefield. Conjured units count as part of the army of the player that has conjured them as far as Victory Conditions and the rules for Victory Points are concerned."


Under Conjuration

"Each conjuration power specifies the type and number of models to be conjured. Unless state otherwise, the new unit cannot take any additional options or upgrades......... the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes....... Unless otherwise noted, conjured units are scoring units."

Under Conjuring Daemons
"If a conjuration power creates a unit from Codex: Daemons...."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Possession

"If this power is successfully manifested, the Psyker is immediately removed as a casualty (if the Psyker was part of a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, remove the entire unit as casualties). If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psychic test, he automatically suffers Perils of the Warp."


Under Independent Characters
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."



Very clear, Possess while Heralds are in a Unit of Pink Horrors loses the whole unit. Very very clear.


Adding

Possession, Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, and ICs: When an IC or ICs are attached to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules and Possession is cast, the entire unit is sacrificed, including any attached Independent Characters who "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."