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Has anyone played a pure Daemon army in 40k? Or seen one played? Was wondering how that turned out...

KTG17 wrote:
Has anyone played a pure Daemon army in 40k? Or seen one played? Was wondering how that turned out...

Yep, heck we just had another last night. Daemons tied up the field devoting most turns to Daemon slaughter while even more daemons were circling to all the objectives. Game won purely through attrition, mainly because Daemons were able to IGNORE attrition. They're endless.

Playing a Daemon army is like playing a self-healing army. Unless your opponent has sufficient Damage Per Turn to take you out, you eventually win just through body count.

So then CSM + Daemons seems like a great bet.

I always thought Chaos of being CSMs + Daemons. Thats what gives them all their color. I think pure CSM is boring. And I guess it justifies not giving CSMs all the fun stuff regular marines get, since after all, CSMs can fight alongside daemons.

KTG17 wrote:
So then CSM + Daemons seems like a great bet.

I always thought Chaos of being CSMs + Daemons. Thats what gives them all their color. I think pure CSM is boring. And I guess it justifies not giving CSMs all the fun stuff regular marines get, since after all, CSMs can fight alongside daemons.

They are... they totally are.

My old Chaos list had Bloodthirsters alongside Tzeentch sorcerer LORDS with a retinue of sorcerers throwing out doombolts and winds with Thousand Sons and Berserkers supporting the line... We don't even have a dreadnought... they gutted this army hard and buffed imperium yet again. My guess is not enough people buy Chaos. Start buying more Chaos, damnit!

Makumba wrote:
I was told that Any Chambers made chaos powerful , because he was playing them and like Phill Kellys eldar , he was just making his chance to win higher.

Considering that there was eight writers for the Chaos book, Phil Kelly included...

KTG17 wrote:
So then CSM + Daemons seems like a great bet.

I always thought Chaos of being CSMs + Daemons. Thats what gives them all their color. I think pure CSM is boring. And I guess it justifies not giving CSMs all the fun stuff regular marines get, since after all, CSMs can fight alongside daemons.

I just can't believe that they didn't include CSM as an army that doesn't get the full "any doubles on summoning = perils" penalty. I mean, if Grey Knights are supposed to be the paragons of non-Choas, wtf are CSM supposed to be?

We do get a few things in our favor though....

Spell Familiars make our Sorcerers strong spellcasters, so while they aren't pure Daemon blood, they are resistant to the Warp.
Daemon Princes are actually Daemons, so they don't suffer double perils at all. We CAN get no perils, you just need pure daemon blood to do it.

We're not pure daemons after all, Chaos has ALWAYS suffered perils because of warp stuff.

Kyutaru wrote:
We do get a few things in our favor though....

Spell Familiars make our Sorcerers strong spellcasters, so while they aren't pure Daemon blood, they are resistant to the Warp.
Daemon Princes are actually Daemons, so they don't suffer double perils at all. We CAN get no perils, you just need pure daemon blood to do it.

We're not pure daemons after all, Chaos has ALWAYS suffered perils because of warp stuff.

Despite having the knowledge of how to summon daemons, which even khorne followers knew how to do even without psyker assistance.

Also Daemon Princes do suffer perils, just on the normal double 6.

It would have been nice if it was something like Marked Psykers suffer only suffer perils on double 6s while summoning as long as the summoned unit is of the same god as the mark. Summoning a unit of a god different from their mark results in perils on any doubles, as normal.

 erick99 wrote:
Also Daemon Princes do suffer perils, just on the normal double 6.

It would have been nice if it was something like Marked Psykers suffer only suffer perils on double 6s while summoning as long as the summoned unit is of the same god as the mark. Summoning a unit of a god different from their mark results in perils on any doubles, as normal.

I like this alot....may introduce it to my group as a potential houserule.

 erick99 wrote:
Also Daemon Princes do suffer perils, just on the normal double 6.

It would have been nice if it was something like Marked Psykers suffer only suffer perils on double 6s while summoning as long as the summoned unit is of the same god as the mark. Summoning a unit of a god different from their mark results in perils on any doubles, as normal.

While nice and all, what about for those on the Khorne side of things.

Are there any Khorne dudes that are Psykers to begin with?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 erick99 wrote:
Also Daemon Princes do suffer perils, just on the normal double 6.

It would have been nice if it was something like Marked Psykers suffer only suffer perils on double 6s while summoning as long as the summoned unit is of the same god as the mark. Summoning a unit of a god different from their mark results in perils on any doubles, as normal.

While nice and all, what about for those on the Khorne side of things.

No idea.

 jasper76 wrote:
Are there any Khorne dudes that are Psykers to begin with?

Khorne doesn't have psykers. That's why I'm having a hard time thinking of a fix for Khorne that stays fluffy(ish).

I still like your idea...I just think it would mean that noone (xcept other Daemons) could summon Khorne daemons without taking the full perils of the warp risk.

That in itself is kinda fluffy, isnt it? I mean, those guys are supposed to hate Psykers, and be generally full to the brim of rage rght? So it'd be like taking a big risk by summoning the most hate-filled kindof daemons.

Yeah, it probably is the best fit fluff wise. It'd be nice if GW would FAQ/errata something like this into the codex. It would remove one of my complaints.

I find myself gradually replacing more and more CSM units with units from the Daemon book. They are better at psychic powers and close combat, and if I want to shoot stuff, I'll bring out my Traitor Guard.

When putting together an army list, I never even consider a large part of the Chaos Codex, there is just such a long list of units that are incredibly overpriced and useless, (Warp Talons, Non-crimson slaughter possessed, Mutilators, 1k sons, Berzerkers, Fabius, Lucius, Ahriman*, Defiler) or just "meh, might work for fun"-level and easily outclassed by other units in the same codex (Land Raider, Chosen, Vindicator, Chaos Space Marines, Raptors, Terminators).

And not having any delivery system outside of a Rhino is a really limiting factor for an army that leans so heavily towards close combat. Daemons get Scout/Invulnerable saves/multi-wound units (and all for cheap!), Loyalists get Drop Pods, CSM get... the option to take Huron as your Warlord. We have the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords, we should be able to reach combat.

It is just outshined by every other updated codex (except Dark Angels) and lack the tools to be competitive in the current meta (no fast troops, no reliable "star"-combos)

*Might change in 7th **Does work well for hiding Be'Lakor out of LOS at least...

I'll keep playing Chaos, but it won't be Chaos Space Marines. My lists have lately featured around 1 model in power armour.

If only Doomrider was a special character who unlocked bikers as troops...

 jasper76 wrote:
I still like your idea...I just think it would mean that noone (xcept other Daemons) could summon Khorne daemons without taking the full perils of the warp risk.

That in itself is kinda fluffy, isnt it? I mean, those guys are supposed to hate Psykers, and be generally full to the brim of rage rght? So it'd be like taking a big risk by summoning the most hate-filled kindof daemons.

I would say you can use psykers in a Khorne list. Who says they are casting powers? Maybe the test is to see if enough blood has been shed that Khorne turns his gaze on the battlefield this turn and blesses the "champion" with demonic assistance (summoning)? Or any other "spell" effect? Hell, you wouldnt even have to model it as a psyker, really.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I still like your idea...I just think it would mean that noone (xcept other Daemons) could summon Khorne daemons without taking the full perils of the warp risk.

That in itself is kinda fluffy, isnt it? I mean, those guys are supposed to hate Psykers, and be generally full to the brim of rage rght? So it'd be like taking a big risk by summoning the most hate-filled kindof daemons.

I would say you can use psykers in a Khorne list. Who says they are casting powers? Maybe the test is to see if enough blood has been shed that Khorne turns his gaze on the battlefield this turn and blesses the "champion" with demonic assistance (summoning)? Or any other "spell" effect? Hell, you wouldnt even have to model it as a psyker, really.

You can of course, use psykers in a khorne list. What he was mentioning though was that my proposed fix for summoning by sorcerers only benefits marked sorcerers, and no sorcerers can take the MoK.

Of course they can't take Mark of Khorne, he doesn't bless psykers. If you wanted something like a war chant, you'd need something akin to the boon table. That's exactly what Chaos gods are... a random roll on a random table for a random effect that may make you god or nuke you into dust.

Honestly though, if I were making the codex I'd allow Khorne to have psykers but they only generate warp charges through killing things. Blood for the Blood God, bitch.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
As you can already see, it's mainly people who are butt-hurt that the current CSM codex isn't the old 3rd edition CSM codex which was hideously overpowered and had a few little fluffy rules that they used to use.

Let me just say there has never been a person I have disagreed more consistently with on all of dakka, and never a post I have disagreed more strongly with than this one.

The 6th edition CSM codex literally broke my 40k spirit. It may have taken me 14 months or so after that to finally quit the game, but there was never any question after I purchased and read that codex. It's not hyperbole. I never got over it, it was that bad.

See? This is why I haven't put Ailaros on ignore: I don't want to miss gems of wisdom such as this.

lol. Same here. The other day he was arguing that the 40k rulebook was worth paying for because it was comparable to a college education.

And hats off to CalgarsPimpHand, you just gave me a total epiphany, that's exactly what I did!

I spent months beating the piss out of that codex, trying to get my Khorne army to work, or at least desperately trying to get anything besides Nurgle HQ/Plague Marines/Zombies/Cultists/Heldrake to work reasonably. NOTHING. Every list you make, you'd be better off getting rid of anything without MoN, and it's painfully obvious. Khorne berserkers? Horrible because they're impossible to get in to melee. Terminators? Forced to scatter because for some stupid reason they took that ability off Chaos icons. CSM? Why, I can get 2/3rds the number of plague marines for the same cost and they'll be twice as good. Raptors? Again always scatter and get blown off the table unless they have MoN.

So finally, after months and months of trying and not being able to find an army that felt like it had an ounce of synergy compared to my DA, nids, or my friends BA, Orks, and Tau, I just said screw it, eBayed all my Nurgle stuff, and gave up on 40k shortly afterwards because my other choices were Ravenwing, which worked well but weren't really my cup of tea, or nids, which I already played so well I could sweep most opponents off the table without even trying (with the 5e codex... spored Zoanthropes FTW).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:
Honestly though, if I were making the codex I'd allow Khorne to have psykers but they only generate warp charges through killing things. Blood for the Blood God, bitch.

...that would actually be a pretty awesome mechanic if melee were more prevalent in the game. Kill a dude in melee, unleash RAAAAAAGE!

Cons:

Point costs.

Dinobots.

Lack of viable legion tactics.

Essentially sub-par SM.

Pros:

Not as bad as BA.

Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements.

Helbrute dataslate.

It's been mentioned loads, but it does come down to the flavour and somewhat ridiculous point costs and balance for Berzerkers, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Thousand Sons etc. The Helbrute dataslate dropped the price and improved the Helbrute unit immeasurably, which has made them useful again. The addition of the dinobot made the codex better, but it was fluff-wise awful. SMs get Chapter Tactics and other codices to added specialisation (DA, BA, Imperial Fists, SW, Grey Knights, Clan Raukaan), while we get the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter codices and the Fallen Angel and Helbrute dataslate. Almost nobody plays Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter (but for those few it was good) and it leaves everyone else with a poorly designed codex. Hell, part of the fluff got butchered with Chaos Undivided being retconned out. Part of the poor design is due to being the first codex of 6th edition and that 6th edition made CC less good, but Hell, I know of Alpha Legion players who use the Ultramarine or Raven Guard tactics instead of the CSM book.

What I'm hoping for in a new codex

Fix point costs.

SM options/Get rid of dinobots.

Legion/God-specific units and tactics a la SM.

Bring back Chaos Undivided.

This obviously harks back to 3.5, but I'm not talking about getting an overpowered codex but rather a codex that has internal unit balance.

The current codex isn't the weakest, but if you want to play a Legion-specific style you are fethed.

For me, the biggest issue with the 6th ed Chaos book is that it was written for a 4th/5th ed paradigm. It's really just a 5th ed book disguised as a 6th ed book. The newer USRs it gave CSM (such as Champions of Chaos) actually penalize the player for using the codex and tend NOT to synergize well with the 6th ed rules. I've said it before and I'll probably say it again, but in an edition where you can't assault from reserves/deep strike, and in an edition where you have random charge distance, overwatch, and in a CSM book with no practical way to prevent deep strike mishaps, we were given a unit in Warp Talons that is costed on a 5th ed level and relies on accurately deep striking to get into CC. Warp Talons would have been AMAZING in the previous two editions. As it is now, they make ZERO sense. Don't even get me started on Mutilators ....

Basically, the book is a random collection of units that don't play well with one another, has had zero thought put into it and is just one huge example of missed opportunity. It's almost as if they randomly selected one person per unit and said "design unit x" but don't read the 6th ed rules or talk to the other people who are designing the other CSM units" and then just jammed them all together.

Common retorts to CSM complaints are, "But Sisters have it worse, you just want 3.5 back, stop beeing a WAAC player, and my personal favorite: Your army is fine because tactics", but none of these address the points I made above.

 erick99 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 erick99 wrote:
Also Daemon Princes do suffer perils, just on the normal double 6.

It would have been nice if it was something like Marked Psykers suffer only suffer perils on double 6s while summoning as long as the summoned unit is of the same god as the mark. Summoning a unit of a god different from their mark results in perils on any doubles, as normal.

While nice and all, what about for those on the Khorne side of things.

No idea.

 jasper76 wrote:
Are there any Khorne dudes that are Psykers to begin with?

Khorne doesn't have psykers. That's why I'm having a hard time thinking of a fix for Khorne that stays fluffy(ish).

Tie it to a Dark Apostle?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Sanctified#.U43nw01t3cs

Here is what I'd like to see in a chaos codex, mind you I'm saying chaos instead of chaos marine codex.

More troops, cultists, normal chaos marines, legion marines with options for infiltrate, stubborn etc.

Other transports, drop pods, new open topped vehicle for cultists.

New spawn unit, have option for big spawn ( lose beast, gain mc, more wounds)

Chaos lords more options, flesh metal armour would love to have, buy a particular ability like infiltrate, go back to codex 3.5 where you could also buy +1t, +1ws.

Current daemon engines and helbrutes should have marks, remember its daemons in machines, who did daemons belong to.

Are there any Space Marines players here?

Aren't you utilizing the rule of the Power of the Machine Spirit quite often? Especially when fielding Land Raiders?

I'm trying to make the Chaos Space Marines codex work and thought about 20 Daemons in a Spartan Assault tank when I saw that the Non-Chaos version only costs 10 more points for Power of the Machine Spirit? But maybe this rule isn't used that often? Is it a fair price?

What about the 25 points for Daemonic Possession for lowering the BS to 3, killing the models inside which hopefully only happens when Hull points are lost and the 2+ Ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned result?

Chaospling wrote:
Are there any Space Marines players here?

Aren't you utilizing the rule of the Power of the Machine Spirit quite often? Especially when fielding Land Raiders?

I'm trying to make the Chaos Space Marines codex work and thought about 20 Daemons in a Spartan Assault tank when I saw that the Non-Chaos version only costs 10 more points for Power of the Machine Spirit? But maybe this rule isn't used that often? Is it a fair price?

What about the 25 points for Daemonic Possession for lowering the BS to 3, killing the models inside which hopefully only happens when Hull points are lost and the 2+ Ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned result?

Yeah, isn't that a hilarious one? Instead of PotMS, which lets you shoot an additional weapon at a different target with full ballistic skill, for a net of +15 points, we can take an ability that might randomly kill a 40 point model inside, makes the vehicle WORSE at shooting, but hey, we can ignore the effects of the most ineffective rolls on the damage table. Good times.

But there's a simple solution to all this: tactics.

Chaospling wrote:
Are there any Space Marines players here?

Aren't you utilizing the rule of the Power of the Machine Spirit quite often? Especially when fielding Land Raiders?

I'm trying to make the Chaos Space Marines codex work and thought about 20 Daemons in a Spartan Assault tank when I saw that the Non-Chaos version only costs 10 more points for Power of the Machine Spirit? But maybe this rule isn't used that often? Is it a fair price?

What about the 25 points for Daemonic Possession for lowering the BS to 3, killing the models inside which hopefully only happens when Hull points are lost and the 2+ Ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned result?

I use PotMS often when I use my non-chaos Land Raiders, and I feel it is worth more than the 20 point discount CSM get for not having it, especially on the standard land raider. The Godhammer's main issue is its lack of focus: being an assault transport, you want to get it in close to let your troops get into combat. With lascannons, you want to hang back and pop tanks. And that TL Heavy Bolter isn't bad against infantry, but is near worthless against most vehicles. PotMS helps Land Raiders get over that by letting you shoot at the tanks and infantry.

I haven't found Daemonic Possession to be worth it for land raiders, especially as you often put expensive units int them.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
Thankfully we have an answer to legions... FW's Horus Heresy (aka 30K) is brilliant. Use it. it works and is as balanced against 40K armies as anything else in 40K.

If you want possessed heavy and mangled by the warp then go with C:CSM.

If you want recent turncoats just play counts-as C:SM.

30k isn't indicative of the legions post-Heresy, which is what most Chaos players want. Not during the Heresy, but afterwards.

Do you have the books? Because as they move forward in time the traitors get increasingly chaotic. Emporer's Children already have noise marines and Word Bearers have super possessed marines for example.

 slowthar wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Are there any Space Marines players here?

Aren't you utilizing the rule of the Power of the Machine Spirit quite often? Especially when fielding Land Raiders?

I'm trying to make the Chaos Space Marines codex work and thought about 20 Daemons in a Spartan Assault tank when I saw that the Non-Chaos version only costs 10 more points for Power of the Machine Spirit? But maybe this rule isn't used that often? Is it a fair price?

What about the 25 points for Daemonic Possession for lowering the BS to 3, killing the models inside which hopefully only happens when Hull points are lost and the 2+ Ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned result?

Yeah, isn't that a hilarious one? Instead of PotMS, which lets you shoot an additional weapon at a different target with full ballistic skill, for a net of +15 points, we can take an ability that might randomly kill a 40 point model inside, makes the vehicle WORSE at shooting, but hey, we can ignore the effects of the most ineffective rolls on the damage table. Good times.

But there's a simple solution to all this: tactics.

Ooo ooo rate my tactics build! It's exactly 2000 points!

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 60 - Sad Panda
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

How to play:
Cultists - Tarpit
Sorcerers - Summon Tarpits
Obliterators - Murder Death Kill

 slowthar wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Are there any Space Marines players here?

Aren't you utilizing the rule of the Power of the Machine Spirit quite often? Especially when fielding Land Raiders?

I'm trying to make the Chaos Space Marines codex work and thought about 20 Daemons in a Spartan Assault tank when I saw that the Non-Chaos version only costs 10 more points for Power of the Machine Spirit? But maybe this rule isn't used that often? Is it a fair price?

What about the 25 points for Daemonic Possession for lowering the BS to 3, killing the models inside which hopefully only happens when Hull points are lost and the 2+ Ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned result?

Yeah, isn't that a hilarious one? Instead of PotMS, which lets you shoot an additional weapon at a different target with full ballistic skill, for a net of +15 points, we can take an ability that might randomly kill a 40 point model inside, makes the vehicle WORSE at shooting, but hey, we can ignore the effects of the most ineffective rolls on the damage table. Good times.

But there's a simple solution to all this: tactics.

And remember: we have to test when embarking this tank and even at the start of the game where it surely haven't lost a Hull point yet My solution is much more simple: don't play or buy until fixed - this frees up so much money for hifi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 erick99 wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Are there any Space Marines players here?

Aren't you utilizing the rule of the Power of the Machine Spirit quite often? Especially when fielding Land Raiders?

I'm trying to make the Chaos Space Marines codex work and thought about 20 Daemons in a Spartan Assault tank when I saw that the Non-Chaos version only costs 10 more points for Power of the Machine Spirit? But maybe this rule isn't used that often? Is it a fair price?

What about the 25 points for Daemonic Possession for lowering the BS to 3, killing the models inside which hopefully only happens when Hull points are lost and the 2+ Ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned result?

I use PotMS often when I use my non-chaos Land Raiders, and I feel it is worth more than the 20 point discount CSM get for not having it, especially on the standard land raider. The Godhammer's main issue is its lack of focus: being an assault transport, you want to get it in close to let your troops get into combat. With lascannons, you want to hang back and pop tanks. And that TL Heavy Bolter isn't bad against infantry, but is near worthless against most vehicles. PotMS helps Land Raiders get over that by letting you shoot at the tanks and infantry.

I haven't found Daemonic Possession to be worth it for land raiders, especially as you often put expensive units int them.

The odd thing is that the Spartan with it's much more powerful sponsons only costs 10 points more.

But still, if there's Space Marines players who also don't play Chaos and who disagree, then please speak up as this is keeping me from buying and playing...