What was wrong with the 6th Edition Chaos codex?

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**Wilytank**

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
So they like the Chaos Vikings, but not the Chaos Space Marines....

Just look at the fluff and you'll see why WOC have always been more favorable than CSM. Badass dark knights who with a few exceptions were never loyal to the Empire. They travel the world looking for a little fun, serving their gods who want to destroy it.

On the other hand, every other word out of a Chaos Space Marine's mouth is ANGST. That's all they say. Abaddon just says ANGST to the ANGST ANGST!

And apparently, the CSM players have adopted that to be their official language.

**Selym**

Kyutaru wrote:
slowthar wrote:
Chaospling wrote:
Are there any Space Marines players here?

Aren't you utilizing the rule of the Power of the Machine Spirit quite often? Especially when fielding Land Raiders?

I'm trying to make the Chaos Space Marines codex work and thought about 20 Daemons in a Spartan Assault tank when I saw that the Non-Chaos version only costs 10 more points for Power of the Machine Spirit? But maybe this rule isn't used that often? Is it a fair price?

What about the 25 points for Daemonic Possession for lowering the BS to 3, killing the models inside which hopefully only happens when Hull points are lost and the 2+ Ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned result?

Yeah, isn't that a hilarious one? Instead of PotMS, which lets you shoot an additional weapon at a different target with full ballistic skill, for a net of +15 points, we can take an ability that might randomly kill a 40 point model inside, makes the vehicle WORSE at shooting, but hey, we can ignore the effects of the most ineffective rolls on the damage table. Good times.

But there's a simple solution to all this: tactics.

Ooo ooo rate my tactics build! It's exactly 2000 points!

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 75 w/Spell Familiar + Summoning
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

HQ - Sorcerer - 60 - Sad Panda
10 Cultists - 50
10 Cultists - 50
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76
1 Obliterator w/MoN - 76

How to play:
Cultists - Tarpit
Sorcerers - Summon Tarpits
Obliterators - Murder Death Kill

Strategy Rating: 10

**tremere47**

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
In short? GW hates Chaos and Chaos players. We are get punished for EVERYTHING, including our damn Warlord Traits and Boon table.

at least you have a printed codex with models designed this century

Sincerely

every Sisters of Battle player

**Selym**

tremere47 wrote:
TheRedWingArmada wrote:
In short? GW hates Chaos and Chaos players. We are get punished for EVERYTHING, including our damn Warlord Traits and Boon table.

at least you have a printed codex with models designed this century

Sincerely

every Sisters of Battle player

**AlmightyWalrus**

tremere47 wrote:
TheRedWingArmada wrote:
In short? GW hates Chaos and Chaos players. We are get punished for EVERYTHING, including our damn Warlord Traits and Boon table.

at least you have a printed codex with models designed this century

Sincerely

every Sisters of Battle player

At least you have a dedicated Codex.

Sincerely

every Black Templars player.

**Davor**

Thanks guys for answering my question about "why not use HH for CSM". I understand now.

**Waaaghpower**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
tremere47 wrote:
TheRedWingArmada wrote:
In short? GW hates Chaos and Chaos players. We are get punished for EVERYTHING, including our damn Warlord Traits and Boon table.

at least you have a printed codex with models designed this century

Sincerely

every Sisters of Battle player

At least you have a dedicated Codex.

Sincerely

every Black Templars player.

At least you have an existing army.

Sincerely

both Squats players

**Jaceevoke**

Waaaghpower wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
tremere47 wrote:
TheRedWingArmada wrote:
In short? GW hates Chaos and Chaos players. We are get punished for EVERYTHING, including our damn Warlord Traits and Boon table.

at least you have a printed codex with models designed this century

Sincerely

every Sisters of Battle player

At least you have a dedicated Codex.

Sincerely

every Black Templars player.

At least you have an existing army.

Sincerely

both Squats players

I think we have a winner here

**koooaei**

They've got great minis. But the current codex ballance and ruleset make them an overall weak army with just a couple of capable units like biker indep + nurgle spawns.

**ausYenLoWang**

StarTrotter wrote:
Davor wrote:
Why are people not buying the Imperial Armour Horus Heresy for their Legion fix now?

You cried you wanted Legion rules. Now you have them. So what is wrong? Is it because Forge World is not "legal"?

Combination of things. One, Forge World is still debated. Second of all, it's still not a joke cheap. Worth the price? Yeah but it's still a big chunk of money. Finally, and most importantly, it doesn't represent the legions we want. Does it represent CSM better than CSM themself? Yes. That said, it's still flawed. Death Guard really haven't hit the nurglified point, Black Legion is entirely different post Heresy, KSons aren't rubricate, there is very little in the way of chaos still. Finally, not all legions are even out yet.

just to quickly mention. forgeworld is 7th ed legal.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/598459.page#6898932

it came up and there is page references saying use any gw publication to find the rules etc.

now 30k Vs 40k. that i can see being a stickler.. its not too far off but yeah just throwing it out there

**KorPhaeron77**

Mozzamanx wrote:
In my eyes, I don't want to go back to 3.5. I want a Codex built from 7th edition principles that provides buckets of tactical options, represents all 9 Legions alongside renegades and mixed warbands, and ideally does so with a unique CSM twist on things.

- Spawn move to the Troops slot. Bikes is stealing from Loyalists and Raptors are supposed to be rare.
- Units get cheaper the bigger they get. The first 5 cost you 75pts. The next 5 are 12pts each. Then the next are 10pts each, and the last 5 are 7pts each. If 20-man squads is a CSM thing, make it desirable.
- Introduce Legion 'Marks' on a squad-by-squad basis. For example, squad A can have Night Lord geneseed for +Xpts. This gives Fear and Night Vision, but suffer -1 for Blind tests. That way you please both Legionary splinters, but allow them for a mixed warband.
- Introduce Cult upgrades as a 'level 2 Mark'. If the Mark of Khorne was Rage, Butchers Nails would be Rage, Fearless and +1WS for example.
- Introduce wargear that isn't based on Chaos. Volkite relics, Rotor Cannons, vat-grown warriors as WS3/BS2 demi-Marines. Biological or chemical weapons for Havocs and Plagues that would be banned by the Imperium.
- Introduce what can only be described as the Chaos Battlewagon. High frontal armour, large capacity and open-topped. Cheap enough to be a delivery vessel.
- More mobility and deployment. Cultists can upgrade to Infiltrate, Possessed get Scout and Beast movement, Alpha Legion upgrade to provide Outflank. Icons get their DS mitigation back and Sorcerers can open portals to bring in reserves.

There is so much potential to the army but it remains untapped, and any attempt to discuss the list is met with complaints about a book written over a decade ago. 3.5 is dead and buried, nobody wants it back exactly as it was, but it had a whole host of options that have been utterly abandoned.

I like these ideas a lot. Would be so sweet to have marks like "Rubric" Terminators, Helbrutes, Havocs, chosen can replace their champion with a minor Sorcerer and the rest become automatons like the current 1k Sons squads. In fact a Thousand Sons Dread (Helbrute) Could be really interesting, either make it an ex sorc and give it psychic abilities, or make it one of the dusted rubricae, loses the chance of going crazy but becomes slow and purposeful.

Add in some kind of animosity between different God specific units. Perhaps, all Khorne models must be deployed 12 from a Slaanesh one, same for Nurgle-Tzeentch, unless the army is lead by an Undivided HQ. This would actually give some benefit to having an undivided leader as in the fluff it usually them that hold mixed warbands together, but doesn't restrict a Mono-god warband from containing other cult troops.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Envihon wrote:

I have also said that there should be a Thousand Son codex that works similar to the Grey Knights for Chaos. There are still Thousand Sons that are with Magnus that weren't apart of the Rubric and could function with a Codex on themselves in a similar fashion that they set up the GK codex except their units are defined by which Discipline they adhere to. That would make an awesome codex.

The whole Legion was affected by the Rubric, even those that stayed with Magnus so I disagree on the Thousand Sons getting their own book, or any legion for that matter, because it's already been proved before in 3.5 that Legions can be made to work in one codex.

**jonolikespie**

Seeing some of the suggestions in this thread, such as the ones above, make me wish someone would rewrite the core 40k rules and codecies. Make something based off the current game mechanics but just... put in love and effort instead of pumping out another book to make some quick cash.

**Chaospling**

I like the idea of the Veterans of the Long War rule as this suggests that we can field newly turned Space Marines and elite veterans - what options would you say a newly turned Space Marine squad should have and what should the Veterans of the Long War actually imply? If you're full of ideas which would take an entire day to write, then try another approach like giving the point-costs of the two different units.

Also if we were given a really elitist squad of Chaos Space Marines which satisfied all of us, what should the difference be between that squad and a Chosen squad? I hate that the major difference from a Chosen squad to a normal Chaos Space Marines squad is that Chosen have access to more wargear - to me the difference should be more special rules and/or difference in their stats like the 2 attacks they have already.

**jonolikespie**

Chaospling wrote:
I like the idea of the Veterans of the Long War rule as this suggests that we can field newly turned Space Marines and elite veterans - what options would you say a newly turned Space Marine squad should have and what should the Veterans of the Long War actually imply? If you're full of ideas which would take an entire day to write, then try another approach like giving the point-costs of the two different units.

Also if we were given a really elitist squad of Chaos Space Marines which satisfied all of us, what should the difference be between that squad and a Chosen squad? I hate that the major difference from a Chosen squad to a normal Chaos Space Marines squad is that Chosen have access to more wargear - to me the difference should be more special rules and/or difference in their stats like the 2 attacks they have already.

I think chosen should be the veteran squad like they where back in the.. I wanna say 3rd ed dex? Extra wargear, extra special rules and moved into the troop slot to act as legionary marines while the basic squad gets renamed as renegades and become the cheaper option.

**Mozzamanx**

Chaospling wrote:
I like the idea of the Veterans of the Long War rule as this suggests that we can field newly turned Space Marines and elite veterans - what options would you say a newly turned Space Marine squad should have and what should the Veterans of the Long War actually imply? If you're full of ideas which would take an entire day to write, then try another approach like giving the point-costs of the two different units.

Also if we were given a really elitist squad of Chaos Space Marines which satisfied all of us, what should the difference be between that squad and a Chosen squad? I hate that the major difference from a Chosen squad to a normal Chaos Space Marines squad is that Chosen have access to more wargear - to me the difference should be more special rules and/or difference in their stats like the 2 attacks they have already.

My own preference?

Army-wide rule: Broken Brothers. All models with this special rule Hate loyalist Space Marines. All Loyalist Space Marines Hate models with this special rule. Make it free for the whole army.

Chaos Marines- Same stats as now. Points are 15/12/10/7 as the squad gets bigger, so a full squad of 20 would be 220pts (11 each).
Champion Ld10 by default, all others are 8. Champion has access to Melee & Ranged wargear.
5-man squad: One model may take a Melee weapon. A second model model may take either a Special weapon or a Melee weapon.
10-men: One more model can take a Melee, Special or Heavy weapon.
15-men: One more model can take a Melee, Special or Heavy weapon.
Whole squad can take Marks and/or Legacies, where the Legacies represent Heresy-era veterans and Legion rules.

Chosen- Same stats as now. Same access to Special and Melee weapons that they have now.
Whole squad has access to special wargear including Daemonic Steeds, Bikes, Jump Packs and Sigils of Corruption.
Champion can take Terminator Armour, Psychic Mastery levels and Artefacts.

**Yonan**

jonolikespie wrote:
Seeing some of the suggestions in this thread, such as the ones above, make me wish someone would rewrite the core 40k rules and codecies. Make something based off the current game mechanics but just... put in love and effort instead of pumping out another book to make some quick cash.

They have rwritten the chaos codex, right down to the rubric terminators. I can't link it since I found it on a site with non-fan materials, but it was really well done. "Fandex Chaos Space Marines - 6th ed.pdf" it was called.

**TheRedWingArmada**

Yonan wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:
Seeing some of the suggestions in this thread, such as the ones above, make me wish someone would rewrite the core 40k rules and codecies. Make something based off the current game mechanics but just... put in love and effort instead of pumping out another book to make some quick cash.

They have rwritten the chaos codex, right down to the rubric terminators. I can't link it since I found it on a site with non-fan materials, but it was really well done. "Fandex Chaos Space Marines - 6th ed.pdf" it was called.

And this is what will happen to Chaos, 40K and GW's sales. All of the Chaos players are going to have had enough, say "Deuces!" and start playing however the hell they want. In fact, I'm of that mind that I'll start buying models from other companies and calling them K-OS for private battles and things of the sort. Screw waiting on Games Workshop. Oh, and on that note of "Screw Games Workshop?" Yeah. I'm not playing Chaos Space Marines anymore. They are now going to be called K-OS Soldiers and Monsters. Because I can be lame too. lol

**a fat guy**

I think folks are treating Aileros a bit too harshly. He might be slightly zealous in his defence of the current codex, but to be fair, he's got a point if you compare it to the previous book.

Seriously, the 5th edition Chaos codex was absolutely awful. We didn't even have marks, spawn were useless, there was ONE specific build that we could use...

I honestly think it was the worst of the bunch.

**Mozzamanx**

I agree that the new one is better, but that says more about the 4th Edition book than it does the current. The frustrating part about it is that many of the problems with this book were present in the last one and remained uncorrected.
It also hurts because the 4th Edition book was written at a time when the game was being simplified and toned down, and there was hope that the bland style was simply a symptom of that which might be removed once we went back to the crazy 5th Edition style. Unfortunately it was an evolution of that book rather than the return many people wanted, and so I expect any further books to be in the same style unless GW gets a new author who approaches it with a different vision.

**Kyutaru**

What happened with 4th was Chaos was selling too many models. GW had made them too awesome in the previous edition. What happens when a model starts selling like crazy? They nerf it (poor broken neck Heldrake). 4th through 7th is their way of saying "YO! We've got all these Sisters of Battle here! Buy them instead!".

**Envihon**

The new book might be better but the problem is that a lot of the Chaos forces are too diverse to be lumped into one book and by them doing that, it turns other players off from playing an army they might otherwise would have.

That is where I stand, I don't like most CSM but I do like some like the Alpha Legion. I wouldn't mind playing Alpha Legion at all but I still have to use that book to generate the army and they play nothing like most CSM.

The diversity in the Imperium gets rewarded. The Dark Angels (I still don't think they are diverse enough to have their own codex, and think that they should be rolled into the SM codex and just given their own models but that is my opinion), Blood Angels, Space Wolves and technically the Grey Knights (I don't lump them in with normal SM because they are SM but were designed by Malcador and are no where the same) all have their own Codices because it was recognized that even though they are SM, their tactics deviates enough from the other SM to warrant their own Codex. Not only that but Chapter Tactics within the SM codex allows you to further customize and diversify a SM army from all the other SM armies.

CSM has none of that even though there is a huge amount of diversity in it. A Legion like Thousand Sons, okay, I can understand to reducing them to one kind of unit but the rest don't deserve that treatment. I understand a lot of what the CSM players are saying when they look at Imperial armies and ask for a bone to be thrown their way. And not a Black Legion supplement either, that was just stupid. The Black Legion is the Ultramarines of the CSM and therefore detailed enough in the parent codex.

**squidhills**

Kyutaru wrote:
What happened with 4th was Chaos was selling too many models. GW had made them too awesome in the previous edition. What happens when a model starts selling like crazy? They nerf it (poor broken neck Heldrake). 4th through 7th is their way of saying "YO! We've got all these Sisters of Battle here! Buy them instead!".

Apart from the "buy moar SoB", this isn't too far from how things actually work at GW.

**MWHistorian**

squidhills wrote:
Kyutaru wrote:
What happened with 4th was Chaos was selling too many models. GW had made them too awesome in the previous edition. What happens when a model starts selling like crazy? They nerf it (poor broken neck Heldrake). 4th through 7th is their way of saying "YO! We've got all these Sisters of Battle here! Buy them instead!".

Apart from the "buy moar SoB", this isn't too far from how things actually work at GW.

Exactly. GW doesn't remember that SOB exist.
"The who? Sisters of what?"

**stopcallingmechief**

.

**Vaktathi**

a fat guy wrote:
I think folks are treating Aileros a bit too harshly. He might be slightly zealous in his defence of the current codex, but to be fair, he's got a point if you compare it to the previous book.

Seriously, the 5th edition Chaos codex was absolutely awful. We didn't even have marks, spawn were useless, there was ONE specific build that we could use...

I honestly think it was the worst of the bunch.

Yes in many ways it's an improvement, but that's not saying much given how lame the previous book was. It did relatively little to address the primary issues people had with the previous codex and perpetuated many of the original issues people had with the 4E book. Ultimately, it just didn't deliver what many, if not most, were looking for out of it.

**TheRedWingArmada**

I still say "Give everyone a Fandex." Ends the problem right there. Or better yet, let whoever rights the damn codex's actually give more than a crap about the armies they are writing for.

I don't want a Space Marine player writing a Codex for Chaos. That would be like letting a terrorist (if you believe in such things) be in charge of the presidents security detail.

**Kyutaru**

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I still say "Give everyone a Fandex." Ends the problem right there. Or better yet, let whoever rights the damn codex's actually give more than a crap about the armies they are writing for.

I don't want a Space Marine player writing a Codex for Chaos. That would be like letting a terrorist (if you believe in such things) be in charge of the presidents security detail.

That terrorist would be awesome at identifying suicide bombers. Let him have the job, damnit!

**ZebioLizard2**

The diversity in the Imperium gets rewarded. The Dark Angels (I still don't think they are diverse enough to have their own codex, and think that they should be rolled into the SM codex and just given their own models but that is my opinion), Blood Angels, Space Wolves and technically the Grey Knights

Not really, BA are pretty much codex: Adherant, and the Space Puppies are just renamed units with slightly different wargear outputs.

**Formosa**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The diversity in the Imperium gets rewarded. The Dark Angels (I still don't think they are diverse enough to have their own codex, and think that they should be rolled into the SM codex and just given their own models but that is my opinion), Blood Angels, Space Wolves and technically the Grey Knights

Not really, BA are pretty much codex: Adherant, and the Space Puppies are just renamed units with slightly different wargear outputs.

Whaaaaa?

B.a used to be "pretty much codex adherent" not anymore, yes they have more non codex units than actual codex units and.even one of those codex units doesn't use codex equipment (assault marines), space wolves even less so.

**Blacksails**

Formosa wrote:

Whaaaaa?

B.a used to be "pretty much codex adherent" not anymore, yes they have more non codex units than actual codex units and.even one of those codex units doesn't use codex equipment (assault marines), space wolves even less so.

Errr, which units are not non codex? All I see are death company.

The rest are name changes on existing roles and functions. Maybe Sanguinary guard, but the rest is really just variants or name changes on other codex units.

Space Wolves are a little different, but still functionally the same.

I've never bought in to the idea that any marine chapter has irreconcilable differences that couldn't be made apart of a better written, all encompassing loyalist marine codex.