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I honestly think that allowing forge world models in tournaments should be relooked at. The games evolving, but is the community? There has been a slow shift in the core game that is allowing for the use of these models. Why is forge world so scary? Who still objects and why? Who is for it and why?

I would love to see some FW in the tournament scene. I think it would be an excellent shift in army structure, a chance to freshen up the same ole same ole lists while giving gamers more options, and just pure apocoliptic carnage.

People ban Forge World at tournaments? Never seen that before in the ones I've been to.

With what the Codexes are bringing to the table I don't see any reason to exclude Forge World.

NamelessBard wrote:
People ban Forge World at tournaments? Never seen that before in the ones I've been to.

Depends on the Organizer.

I know the tournaments my local store holds is codex and codex supplements only. So no Escalation, no Forgeworld, no Dataslates, etc.

I see nothing different from 6th or 5th. All the coming tournaments are FW less and no one in normal games accepts FW rules here.

FW really never should have been something banned in the first place, and it's opened up a lot, but it's rather telling that it's still an issue for some people in an edition where Titans and Gargantuan Creatures are part of the normal FoC, the normal FoC has been made largely pointless and in fact can be willfully ignored, and you can literally come to the table with units and models from every faction and have it be legal. In an era where Destroyer weapons, 10" blasts, 2++ rerollable invul saves, and the potential to manufacture hundreds of points of Daemons in an army are all perfectly plausible things, people still throw a hissy over FW units and armies.

 Vaktathi wrote:
FW really never should have been something banned in the first place, and it's opened up a lot, but it's rather telling that it's still an issue for some people in an edition where Titans and Gargantuan Creatures are part of the normal FoC, the normal FoC has been made largely pointless and in fact can be willfully ignored, and you can literally come to the table with units and models from every faction and have it be legal. In an era where Destroyer weapons, 10" blasts, 2++ rerollable invul saves, and the potential to manufacture hundreds of points of Daemons in an army are all perfectly plausible things, people still throw a hissy over FW units and armies.

This is right on point. I really think the ban of FW needs to be revisited by all metas, esp the ones excluding them and tournament scenes. There is really no point on banning them now. I do think its time the players evolve with the game. Daemon factories seem very tolerable if FW is allowed.

We really need to be looking at the game in a new fresh perspective instead of resorting to "what we know and comfortable with".

That's exactly what we need, more revenant titans behind void shields; that'll absolutely not make every top tier list look exactly the same.

Most forge world stuff is OK; but blanket acceptance is not needed here unless you think 4 R'Varna suits is completely OK in one list...because dropping so many 5" blast templates that triple hit all your big stuff at S8 will not ruin a Tyranid player's fun at all. Take 4 of them and a couple of tetras for markerlight support and it's a party against anything up to AV14. Then throw in a tiger shark for anti-air, destroyer weapon goodness. I like it.



I mean, I have enough money to buy all that stuff so too bad for my tournament opponent who can't. . In all seriousness though, you'd have to FAQ D weapons from the forgeworld books to be the same as regular 40k or it'd be pointless.

Kal-El wrote:
I honestly think that allowing forge world models in tournaments should be relooked at. The games evolving, but is the community? There has been a slow shift in the core game that is allowing for the use of these models. Why is forge world so scary? Who still objects and why? Who is for it and why?

I would love to see some FW in the tournament scene. I think it would be an excellent shift in army structure, a chance to freshen up the same ole same ole lists while giving gamers more options, and just pure apocoliptic carnage.

Plenty of FW on the left coast.

 agnosto wrote:
That's exactly what we need, more revenant titans behind void shields; that'll absolutely not make every top tier list look exactly the same.

Most forge world stuff is OK; but blanket acceptance is not needed here unless you think 4 R'Varna suits is completely OK in one list...because dropping so many 5" blast templates that triple hit all your big stuff at S8 will not ruin a Tyranid player's fun at all. Take 4 of them and a couple of tetras for markerlight support and it's a party against anything up to AV14. Then throw in a tiger shark for anti-air, destroyer weapon goodness. I like it.



I mean, I have enough money to buy all that stuff so too bad for my tournament opponent who can't. . In all seriousness though, you'd have to FAQ D weapons from the forgeworld books to be the same as regular 40k or it'd be pointless.

Given what 6th and 7th edition have allowed, that doesn't sound particularly horrifying. D weapons would obviously use the new 7E rulebook rules which have significantly nerfed them.

I don't see the issue with FW. They are the same company, even says Games Workshop on the resin sprew. FW is no more that supplements to the main game. Plus FW models are being acknowledged in the new book.

Over all they are fine with me, I just finally decided to order some models from them, I was sick of taking aegis defense lines(and my cat stole several sections of mine), so i looked for alternatives, and for a unit that fits with my more mobile dark angels army I found the mortis contemptor dreadnaught(with autocanons to act like an ADL). I talked with several people at the FLGS and all of them thought they would be an awesome addition to my army and really had no problems with it. The only thing I heard was they would expect me to have the rulebook for them if I use them in a tournament which isn't unreasonable.

Heres what they look like

We allow a few forge world items in tournaments here, but most not for a simple reason.
It's just more stuff in a bloated game that's unwieldy enough for us, if GW starts cleaning it up we will probably be more open to it.
The expense of getting books and such defenatly harms potential enthusisim also, adding more to an expencive game.

Apple fox wrote:
We allow a few forge world items in tournaments here, but most not for a simple reason.
It's just more stuff in a bloated game that's unwieldy enough for us, if GW starts cleaning it up we will probably be more open to it.
The expense of getting books and such defenatly harms potential enthusisim also, adding more to an expencive game.

In Australia FW stuff shouldn't be *that* much pricier, if at all, than normal GW stuff.

Looking at GW's Aus prices, the Astra Militarum codex is $83AUS, while the average Forgeworld book rounds out to be about $86AUS (some more, some less) at current conversion rates. Let's consider say, Imperial Armour 12, which gives you a unique new variant Necron army list, a new variant Imperial Guard army list, and a new SM chapter along with new units for each of the three factions, has more than twice the number of pages (which are also much bigger), way better art, huge amounts of fluff, and a campaign+missions..for $3 more than a basic codex costs in Australia.

Meanwhile, GW Tempestus Scions are $90AUS for 10, FW Death Korps of Krieg Grenadiers (alternate models for what effectively are the same unit) are ~$69AUS for 10 at the current exchange rate.

Might want to take another look at those prices

It's adding cost, more money to spend for little gain in the end.
Just more money to spend on the game.
And people don't want to buy codexs and such here allready, let alone buying products that have even less exposure here.

The wackiness available in the standard Codexes is far, far beyond what's in any Forge World book (which tends to have content that's mediocre to good and priced fairly to slightly over).

At this point, I don't mind. It's gonna be what it's gonna be. I have a Contemptor now that I'll make into a Furioso Variant. I have a Storm Eagle to build too.

If the FW rules can't be played, *poof* bigger storm raven to my detriment and a regular Furioso.

I would imagine just play the models you like and be flexible.

Apple fox wrote:
It's adding cost, more money to spend for little gain in the end.
Just more money to spend on the game.
And people don't want to buy codexs and such here allready, let alone buying products that have even less exposure here.

I just find that to be a strange rationale when the products aren't more than anything else GW sells there (in some cases cheaper) and have more stuff, and aren't mandatory for everyone to buy. All the same arguments apply to a new codex release, but nobody seems to treat them the same way.

It's not like FW's exposure anywhere else is much better

Apple fox wrote:
It's adding cost, more money to spend for little gain in the end.
Just more money to spend on the game.
And people don't want to buy codexs and such here allready, let alone buying products that have even less exposure here.

Which still doesnt make a lot of sense. Its not hard to understand the rules for the units, assuming your opponent has the book, so you dont need to buy it yourself...and the models are, especially if you hit free shipping, oftencheaper in AUS than GW main stock...

On the one hand, non-Apocalypse Forge World stuff is a lot better balanced than current GW stuff and should be in the game, so I can see why some tournaments allow it.

On the other hand, only Escalation actually contains rules allowing you to use Forge World, and it's all Superheavies and GCs, which can really mess up the game, so I can see why some tournaments don't allow it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
On the other hand, only Escalation actually contains rules allowing you to use Forge World, and it's all Superheavies and GCs, which can really mess up the game, so I can see why some tournaments don't allow it.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. The rules allowing you to use FW exist outside of Escalation, and Escalation is a "main GW" rulebook that just happens to include units that have FW models. Whether or not Escalation should be legal really has nothing to do with this discussion.

What I'm saying is that maybe the reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because the current list of legal FW units is nothing but Revenant Titans and other units clearly not balanced for an 1850 pt game.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
What I'm saying is that maybe the reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because the current list of legal FW units is nothing but Revenant Titans and other units clearly not balanced for an 1850 pt game.

FW just makes the model, the rules as they currently are for them, and their ability to be included in games where they really don't belong, is *ALL* courtesy of the core GW studio.

That said, what do you mean the current list of "legal" FW models? They're all "legal", and many of their units have been ported into codex books (hydra, valkyrie, etc)

 PrinceRaven wrote:
What I'm saying is that maybe the reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because the current list of legal FW units is nothing but Revenant Titans and other units clearly not balanced for an 1850 pt game.

Not really. The only reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because people who want to bring it to the table too often refuse to ask nicely.

The problem is not in the "legality" of "Forge World units", but in the "civility" of an unfortunate amount of the Forge World customers playing with these units.

There is (and never has been) a reason to ban Forge World beyond fear of the unknown, and even this is unreasonable.

So FW books are harder to get than GW books? I really don't see how this is an issue, most people only know and own the codex for their army anyway. The onus of providing the rules is on the player using the model, not the one playing against it, and all it takes a quick 'what does that do?' before the game, a situation I imagine occurs with a lot of codex stuff anyway.

Power levels aren't an issue: If you're at a tournament, the chances are you expect and even encourage the most powerful stuff available, and I imagine most FW products are nowhere near as bad as the likes of Screamerstars and Triptides.

It's just people fearing what they don't understand (at first), and then people latching onto this opinion without knowing better.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
What I'm saying is that maybe the reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because the current list of legal FW units is nothing but Revenant Titans and other units clearly not balanced for an 1850 pt game.

Not really. The only reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because people who want to bring it to the table too often refuse to ask nicely.

The problem is not in the "legality" of "Forge World units", but in the "civility" of an unfortunate amount of the Forge World customers playing with these units.

Do you ask nicely to use any main line codex army? Or do you just expect to be able to use it?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Do you ask nicely to use any main line codex army? Or do you just expect to be able to use it?

Of course. Communicating what game you play, which rules you use (or don't use), which models, victory conditions, etc.., is arguably the most important step in the game.

In a "regular gaming environment", habit might allow you to skip some or all of that, but fi you play a stranger, never assume anything.

If somebody doesn't want to play Forge World, or Orks, or Flyers, or more than 1 Riptide, you'll need to respect that.

Again... the existence of an option does not mean it is appropriate in all circumstances.

Just because you do have Chilli-powder in your cupboard, doesn't mean you should expect the guests you eat with to like it in every single meal ever, from breakfast cereal to pudding.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
What I'm saying is that maybe the reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because the current list of legal FW units is nothing but Revenant Titans and other units clearly not balanced for an 1850 pt game.

FW just makes the model, the rules as they currently are for them, and their ability to be included in games where they really don't belong, is *ALL* courtesy of the core GW studio.

That said, what do you mean the current list of "legal" FW models? They're all "legal", and many of their units have been ported into codex books (hydra, valkyrie, etc)

Unless I'm missing something, (entirely possible given how new 7th edition is) the core rulebook still doesn't include Forge World books as legal rules sources.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Do you ask nicely to use any main line codex army? Or do you just expect to be able to use it?

I, for one, don't show up to a pickup game with 5 FMCs and expect people to be cool with it, I communicate with my opponent what sort of list they can handle like a civilised human being, leading to a more even and enjoyable game for both players.

Since you're doing a custom job anyway, you might want to just remove the two broken factions from the Chaos codex because I agree that 3.5 was the holy grail.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
What I'm saying is that maybe the reason people are hesitant to play with other Forge World stuff is because the current list of legal FW units is nothing but Revenant Titans and other units clearly not balanced for an 1850 pt game.

FW just makes the model, the rules as they currently are for them, and their ability to be included in games where they really don't belong, is *ALL* courtesy of the core GW studio.

That said, what do you mean the current list of "legal" FW models? They're all "legal", and many of their units have been ported into codex books (hydra, valkyrie, etc)

Unless I'm missing something, (entirely possible given how new 7th edition is) the core rulebook still doesn't include Forge World books as legal rules sources.

I don't have mine on me (at work currently), but does it specifically list out each codex as well? None of the previous rulebooks did.

Either way, the FW books are written by GW staff at GW HQ, and the books show GW copyrights and note that they are Published by GW, for a GW game.